Women's Rights
 

I was really curious about how women's rights have progressed in Japan and how they are treated now. I read in a book from the '80s that they only get paid 60% of what a man does for the same job and that they are also treated somewhat badly, such as having to leave the room when her husband's coworker visits and similar things. Can anyone tell me more?

You are mixing up "women's rights" and cultural traditions. And this is a larger topic than I can even scratch the surface of here.

Japan is often called a patriarchal society, but in reality I have found that men wear the titles, and women carry the power. Oftentimes in homes the husband gives his paycheck to his wife, and she pays the bills and gives him an allowence for lunch, etc. Men often live at home until they get married, so wives can sort of take the role of "mom" sometimes. Japan is not a society like some, where a woman would be beaten for speaking her mind, and if you watch the movies, it is women who can tease and make fun of the mafia boss or samurai, when his male subordinates cannot.

It is a good question, but also a complex one. But I think if you aksed Japanese women if they really felt oppressed in Japanese society, the number of yes answers would be lower than you think. Remember geisha, hostesses and waitresses are PAID to be submissive.

Well, theres your problem, that was 20+ years ago maybe

It's the same now. Japan changes slower than the brutally swift change demanded by Americans and Europeans.

Really? Subjected to being just stay-at-home moms, more Japanese women choose to not be moms at all. Calling a women "Christmas Cake" (unmarried by age 25) was common in the 80s. Now most people under 40 don't know what that term means. Hence the "greying of Japan" as families go from an average of +2.5 children (growing society) to -1.5 (shrinking society). The population in Japan peaked in 2006, and a lot of the reason for that is 1) economy but also 2) women flexing their rights.

I recognize the changes. But, in Japan those changes took longer than in the U.S., for example, even though people were aware of those new ideas. IN the U.S. (my/our point of reference) those who demand change want it now, with no regard for the dificulties or negative results of the changes. Newness and shucking the husk of the past is part of our culture. Japan usually takes those changes slower and thus mitigate the upheaval. Just look at all the damage done to women by the forceful "we want it now" change brought by the old women's lib movement. (which i don't want to confuse wsith women's rights) But of course those things are happening.

I heard that saying from some of my female Japanese friends. (For those that don't know, it's referring to the fact that the Japanese eat Christmas cakes on Dec 25, and any unsold cakes on the 26th are suddenly rather worthless and deeply discounted, same as unsold Christmas trees would be in the US.) However, those women also mentioned some sayings they have for Japanese men, such as the "Gokiburi husband" ("Men are like cockroaches... you don't want either of them in your kitchen"), which highlights just how little the Japanese men are taught about cooking, laundry, and other things. As you said, many tend to live at home until they get married, so they never have to learn to fend for themselves. A lot of Japanese men I knew told me that they had never made anything more complicated than toast or instant ramen in their lives. If the wife was ever away for any reason, they'd eat out at a restaurant. (It's like the Carl's Jr commercial's motto... "If it weren't for us, some guys would starve.")

Is that about rights, or a cultural division of labor?

Cultural division. Just pointing out that while Japanese women are culturally often responsible for and expected to do (or not to do) certain things, so too are the Japanese men.

Good point.

yes i agree i went there and theres no complaints :)

I agree with you , but I misread something earlier in the thread. Never mind the "It hasn't changed..." comment.

Looking at the laws Japan is probably one of the most liberal states for women. But I've heard of traditions that still exists like that a man never shakes his hand with a woman or that the women have to bow longer before a man.

I don't like the fact that the Japanese Emperor still has to be male. Aiko ought to be the successor. She was the first child and probably she is tough enough for the job!

The notion that women are "discriminated against," in Japan or any other advanced country, is problematic and misleading. It's a big topic and I'll just leave it at that for now. But, to answer the question about women in the workplace, I can answer based on recent observations in the Kanto area.

In smaller companies at least, the traditional role of the woman as chakumi (tea-pourer) seems to be falling by the wayside. Instead, pouring tea (and coffee, which is more popular nowadays), it's the new face (shinjin) who serves refreshments -- and only when customers visit. When no customers are present, everyone just gets their own, but women probably end up making the coffee a bit more than the boys.

Just my own observations.

Differences are interesting though. Tell women they should make coffee more often than men in a workplace in my country, and they'd go thru the roof! :)

Put it this way, the women make the coffee not because they are forced to, but because the men don't know how to make it.

It's also true that an entry-level job is still viewed, by both sexes, as an audition for marriage, so many ladies want to show that they have that homemaking touch. And the gents, of course, do nothing to discourage them.

:confused: :confused: Don't know how to make tea or coffee?.........................:confused:

My wife faced much more demeaning type of sexism from people in the states than in Japan. People here and in the company she worked for assumed she was a subservient Japanese woman and acted on that stereotype.

An yes, most older Japanese men can hardly make coffee. My father-in-law just learned how to make cup ramen recently at 57 years of age. But he works like a dog six days at his own company to provide for his family. Yeah, he demands a lot from his wife, but he gives a lot, too.

So do women get paid the same as men now? Or do they still get paid less for the same job because of their gender?

Now this, I wouldn't be surprised was still the same, but getting there. As far as I know, even the US still has this problem...supposedly.

As does England.

As does Sweden.

There are problems with measurement. In Canada, we have a government commission that tries to rank jobs according to value-added. Their recommendations are not binding in the private sector, but they suggest that clerk-typists add more value than, say, shipper-receivers. The problem is that shippers have to move boxes around, which nobody likes to do, so it tends to get done by men, and if you don't pay more you can't find them. So this is a situation where "women are paid less for similar jobs" when this is not the truth at all.

It's also true that men are more ready to ask for more money than women are. And the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

It's not the same in all cases. This kind of discrimination still goes on, whether some cases are different or not. There will always be undeniably some kind of discrimination between women and mens pay, regardless of other cases where people may claim it's 'justified.' One case is enough.

One case is enough for what? For a massive intervention in the workings of the free-market economy?

I'm all in favor of equal pay for equal work. In fact, Japan's failure to put its highly educated, talented female workforce to better use is one of its most calamitous missed opportunities. Women graduate at the top of their classes from elite universities -- join big keiretsu firms -- and pour tea. Shocking.

But before you jump, it's important to consider:
1) Are you comparing jobs that are really the same? Is one more stressful than the other? More dangerous? More arduous? Comes with heavier responsibility?
2) When women want better pay and promotions, do they ask for them in the way men do?
3) Is she in it to win it, or will she quit when a husband comes along? (This is especially nettlesome -- assuming that women will quit early doesn't make it so.)

The studies I have seen give the lie to the often repeated refrain that "women get paid less for the same work." In fact, at least in the United States, women make less money period. Mainly because they shun dangerous or arduous jobs. Also they have the option of retiring at age 25 (i.e. housewife) -- an option you may or may not like, but it's not available to men.

Complicated.

If the jobs aren't the same, then they simple aren't. What people are mentioning is, less pay for jobs that are the same. If the jobs are not the same, and require more work and/or come with more stress, then pay differences are justified.

If they don't ask for promotions does it mean they are not entitled to them? I don't think we can simply say men ask for promotions and women don't - obviously you can see, it's not as simple as that.

People should never look at a women and assume she's going to give up because of a husband or child. That's like looking at a black man and assuming he's a gangster. A lot of women don't get married and a lot of them don't have children either, and even if they do it doesn't mean their work is going to be hindered by it.

Men are just as able to quit their jobs and look after the children as women do. Sexism is not just prejudice against women, but also against men, and the men being forced to work is not always what they want either. I don't like gender roles as I believe it should be down to the individual and simply because they have female or male parts should not stop them achieving their goal.

So yes, it is really complicated, in some situations, people should not be paid the same for doing different jobs, but the arguement is for a person doing practically the same job and getting paid less for it.