Gender/ Sex Separation
 

I have a serious question about Japan: In Japan, is it common to go to places where people are separated by sex, besides restrooms and dressing rooms? I noticed that the band Versailles~Philharmonic Quintet has had concerts where only men are allowed or only women are allowed, and so serious to an extent that they actually check peoples' IDs to check their sex, so I was wondering.

I really want to know because it hurts me more deeply than anyone can understand to see people separated because of sex. I am androgynous, I have been since kindergarten or earlier, so it has always really affected me to be put with females, as my gender is not female, only my sex.

I have to say, that concert thing has to be the first forced separation I have heard of. I`m going to guess it was to fit the theme of the concert or the vision of the band.

In normal life there is no significant segregation. Toilets of course, along with changing rooms, public baths (but there are unsegregated ones too) and the like... There are female only train cars, but the rest of the cars aren`t male only so there is nothing stopping you from riding on them.
If you want to use the men`s restroom, and get into the men`s bath, etc - well, you`ll encounter problems. But otherwise I really haven`t heard of anything like that.

some of dir en grey concerts are also like that. i have always wonder why they did it tho....

Maybe some naked party with male stuff you know...

But they also have -female only- ones.

I`m thinking the most likely reason for concerts to be like that is to prevent any sort of sexual things happening during the concert. It would be really easy to grope somebody in the crowd and there be no way to stop it.

What about couples? And I don't think a girl should go alone in such concerts.

I can't really help you with this problem, but I can relate with you. I can be very androgynous as well, and I know a lot of people that are in transition or that just are more genderless than most. So I completely get where you're coming from, and frankly, it should be illegal to have "only male " or "only female" anything--it's sexism and it's not fair for the people that don't really fit into one specific category.

How is that sexism? By that logic bathrooms would be illegal. There is an reason why there is some separation of the two sexes, and it's based on biology. In respect to actual sexism charges, life is simply not fair more so when you are an very small minority.

No matter how you feel, your body (except for a very very tiny minority) is going to be biologically one gender or the other.

Even if you are 100% male on the inside - if you have female genitalia, you can be raped just like any typical female. Saying that you feel male is not going to help protect you physically, which I`m willing to bet is the entire reason for this.

It`s not going to help others to be less worried about sexual issues if you`re a female in a male body. To the other typical females, you`re going to look like a guy who might do something or other... And as there is no test to see if it`s true, you could just be some pervert wanting to get up close and personal with girls...

Agreed. I definitely wouldn't want men in the ladies toilets...

It's just not practical in some cases. I'm undecided about concerts and such, as most of my friends are male and if that was the case I'd always end up being on my own.

She wasn't talking about restrooms >.< she said BESIDES restrooms. I understand why bathrooms need to be separated, that's common sense.

But she said that Versailles concerts sometimes are exclusively male or exclusively female. THAT is pretty wrong in my opinion.

And regardless of if people like her (and a lot of people I know) are in the minority or not, they're still people and their feelings still need to be taken into account.

The thing is though, we were talking about WHY the concerts were separate. The most likely reason is to prevent any sort of sexual assault, violation, etc. It`s very hard to keep people safe when they`re all mashed up together at a concert. It`s 10 times worse than the most crowded train at rush hour. I don`t believe it`s for any sort of exclusivity - but rather to protect all the fans... Because, as I said, even if you have an internal gender opposite of that of your body - you can still be assaulted or assault with those parts.

That is very true and I understand your point. But who knows why they actually do things like this. It could be for safety, but I've never been to a concert that was exclusively male or female. It's always both.

Thank you for your help and opinions, everyone! ^_^

Most of their concerts are for both genders, though, and they are even having one soon (or just had one) that was for foreigners only.

I am really curious about other places and situations where sex segregation may occur. I am graduating from high school tomorrow, and I have been on quite a few school buses here in the U.S. where females sit on one side and males on the other, or just where opposite sex cannot sit together. I have been forced to move because of my sex. Are there things or places like that where this often occurs in Japan?

In England we have single sex schools. Sometimes an all girl school will have a partner school which is all boys.

Can't think of anything else at the moment.

That just sounds odd to me...riding the school bus and females on one side while males are on the other. I know that people may choose to do that because they might feel more comfortable sitting with those of the same gender, but I never heard of boys and girls being separated in a mandatory manner. Are you sure that was the situation?

I live in the US. In elementary and middle school, gender segregation was a big thing. Most of the buses I rode on were either segregated by side or at least by seat. About half of the years I was in school, lunch was the same way. I've never been in a PE class where boys and girls played together (unless it was free time recess, outside). High school field trips were pretty often segregated, on the bus, out to eat, at amusement parks, etc.

I've been to concerts where there are sections where only girls can go, and the rest is free-for-all. That's for the protection of the girls who aren't totally comfortable being lost in a crowd of guys. I couldn't imagine why concerts would be totally segregated though.

Wow!

That's interesting! Have you ever been to one? What sort of people typically go to these baths? I mean I can imagine it being for naturists etc...

I haven`t actually gotten into one, but I have been to one... Or rather a facility with one.
It`s pretty much all old people - the same sort of crowd you`d see at a little old sento. I guess either the bath has been there and like that forever so they don`t care - or they`re too old to care. Or both. :D

I have been to one. This places are mostly in rural areas where there is only one large bath (as in the place i was) and not to mayn tourists and hardly any foreigners. In Sukayu there was one big bath mixed and small baths seperated by gender. When i was in the mixed bath there were not many women because there was 1 hour a day only for woman. People who go there are mostly old people like nyorin said in most public sento.
I dont think its that weird, if you think about many Sauna-places in Europe. And they are not only for naturist. I was even in 1 place wich was seperated, but the people walking over the closeby bridge could fully see in the mans bath. I started laughing as one of the guys in the bath got up and waved to the people on the bridge ^^

I see... interesting stuff guys thanks! :D

Welcome.
I loved that onsen, the mixed one was alot better then the small ones. Just dont go there and expect any hot girls^^ And my friends (foreign women) told me that they got a bit stared at, so as girl you might want to choose not to go (or only in the woman only hour). Of course people will look if you are a foreigner but i never felt uncomfortable.

Thanks for the info, guys! In the onsens, the people are naked, right?

Are other places in Japan often seperated? I have heard on this site that there are some places where only Japanese people may enter, so are there places like that for only a certain sex? And how are androgynous and transgenders looked at?

I don't understand, is your condition mental or physical?

Like, are you saying you naturally look like a girl, but are really a boy? Or you are a boy who likes to crossdress? Or were you born physically different, and have "creative" genital organs?

Sorry, to ask, but I am unfamiliar with that term, and the dictionary didn't really help.

Anyway, does anyone know the reason for gender seperation? If it is ingrained in Japanese culture, then you should not criticise if it is for a good reason. But I've never actually heard of this beforer in Japan...

Yoshimi is claiming to have Gender Identity Disorder. That is, where anatomical sex (in this case female) does not match up with internal sense of gender (male, or masculine).

Transvestites are crossdressers, and fall under another category entirely and would not be the basis for the current discussion.

I am very much an egalitarian, when it comes to gender/sex. In my opinion, I feel little should be separated at all, including bathrooms. There are individual stalls. Why does it matter? And in fact, there are plenty of bathrooms in Japan that ARE unisex, with urinals and stalls both, so if anything, Japan is more enlightened about that. The bathrooms in Amanohashidate, for example, are in this pattern.

I would not say that gender separation is common in Japan when it comes to physical segregation like in the example of the bus. Rather, I think gender inequality is generally more mental, and not really different than the mental inequality in most western societies. Both men and women are pigeon-holed into roles, and in some ways this may be clearer in Japan, but in all honesty, I would say America is just as bad (but maybe less vocal about it).

Like homosexuality, transgendered individuals are much more often to be "stealth" than in western societies. They exist, but they are not visible. In Japan, my experience has been that matters relating to "alternative lifestyles" (not my term) are tolerated as long as they are low-key. There's a greater middle-ground than in western societies, so you don't have groups of religious conservatives vs. a rainbow pride parade. Straight, gay, transgendered, or gender-normative, most Japanese would find both groups to be offensive by being so gosh darn loud.

I have hardly seen bathroom wich were mixed. May i ask, wich time have you been to Amanohashidate? I have been recently and im 100% sure the bathrooms where gender seperated (maybe that was different some time ago).

Occasionally, their will be a male urinal in a female bathroom.

Saty supermarket where I used to live had one.

I do possibly think it may be an old fashioned style of thing that may no longer be included in building plans within Japan. Not sure.

In Thailand, many country area service station public toilets are flushed using a bucket of water.

I was in Amanohashidate a few weeks ago. I go pretty often, as I live only half an hour a way or so by car.

So there are parts of Japan where there isn't much separation?
I've read a bit, and it seems to vary from place to place.
Just reading up on different things to expect from Japan. :o

It has been my experience that separation is no more or less than Western countries I have visited or lived in. As I said, I think there is a clearer mental distinction, where individuals themselves overtly self-police, but even then I don't think this is different, just not as underhandedly deceptive as in, as the key example, America.

I'm an ardent feminist, and as such, believe that in Western societies, we have managed to espouse equality in public while failing to truly deal with it in private (leading, of course, to situations that make public espousal absolutely worthless). Whereas in Japan, there is limited public espousal, let alone private espousal, and so while you might think Japan is more overt in its inequality, I just think it is more honest about its inequality, not necessarily in possession of a higher overall level of such behavior.

Im just saying that the thing about the buses being gender segregated. I have seen that but only on extra curricular trips for band and most often after it got dark, because some people found this to be a perfect time to lets say release tension.

Also I don't think it is sexist to have segregated bathrooms or concerts for that matter as long as all groups have equal facilites or opportunity to go the the concerts.

My band director used to say "There are white rooms, and there are red rooms. No pink rooms!" Given the number of gay and bisexual couples I knew in high school, there were plenty of pink rooms without anatomical sex preventing it.

"Separate but equal" is inherently unequal. Many feminists, such as myself, find this applies no less to segregation based on sex or gender (and subsequently, gender identity) than it does to race (there is more than one type of feminism, and the feminism that promotes ultimately biological or inherent differences in males and females prevents true equality is one I consider very flawed, since I consider most gender to be constructed and imposed, rather than inherent).

I recognise Nyororin's concerns (and have in fact been a victim of sexual assault, myself. Luckily, the attacker got spooked, and never got very far), but what is practical now is different from what gender theory tells us should be. Segregated bathrooms and segregated concerts make sense in a context where sexual assault is a distinct possibility, yet the mere culturalisation during formative years by gender specific rooms, roles, activities leads to the view of "the other" and this is a component of a culture where sexual assault is a widespread threat rather than a rare occurrence by a truly psychotic individual. We should decry the necessity of such things while working towards a state of cultural maturity where these things are not as necessary as they once were, and finally, not necessary at all.

When we separate people into groups, we, by virtue of the grouping, assign values to each group. As long as we continue to separate "boys" from "girls" (quotes used in acknowledgement of transgendered individuals) in major areas of life, there will never be equality based on the merits of individuals as individuals. Bathroom usage, especially during pre-school and kindergarten really does have a gender-forcing component to it, as it is often the first time there is constant pressure to conform behavior (go to this room or that room) based solely on anatomical sex. Plenty of children fail to recognise the reason for this, and some even state the actual feminist question themselves "Why?" They find the situation initially uncomfortable, since our family bathrooms are rarely segregated. For transgendered individuals, this can often be traced back to as the first point at which they realise their gender does not match their sex. Before, it didn't matter, and then suddenly it does. Bathrooms will continue to be a point of fear for many years to come.

Much of this is general theory about the philosophy of gender, and its applications on sociology, psychology, and political science, and doesn't have to do specifically with Japan, although there are plenty of examples in Japan that are much clearer than western counterparts.

On a semi-related note, Barack Obama declared June 2009 to be LGBT Pride Month in America.

Thank you for the information! That was very helpful. I like to know more about the reasons for things and why they affect me. ( I hope that makes sense, I am tired!)

OMGosh, Pres. Obama really made this month GLBT Pride month?! My birthday is June 12! Wow! :p

How about roles in Japanese society? I read that females have to do stuff like leave the room when her husband's co-worker comes to visit, has to order the food at the restaurant (I think, I'm not sure about that one), and they don't get paid as much as men do for the same exact job. Is this stuff still true today?

you know that part about unequal pay is still true in america right?


I really don't want to start any arguements at this point in time...

That is scientifically impossible. She is just a lesbian. Nothing wrong with that, but I dislike it when people try to make something up about it.

If you look at how babies are made, we are all originally female (hence why men have nipples which form before they become male). A switch is flicked at some stage or it is not (in our genetic code), if it is, you become male after getting an injection of hormones that encourage the male organs and brain to form. If not, you stay female.

There are cases where the switch is flicked, yet problems occur (such as Nyororins boy), and they are born with deformed genitals and perhaps other problems; they may have gender identity issues, tossing up over whether they're more male or more female. But it is litterally impossible for a male brain to form in a female without growing a penis (or at least half a penis) in unison; other words, she is just a lesbian.

Yoshimi, be proud of who you are, don't hide behind something you're not.

tenchu is right about the switch when the ovaries can and will drop and form to testes if they will be male but im unsure it that means they will have a female or male brain which have been shown to be different. I have a friend who has to take estrogen because she has too much testosterone. but this thread wasn't made about her or yoshimi's sexual orientaion or gender. i believe it was about seperation in japan.

That's not quite my case, and I am not a lesbian.

I am androgynous. I was born with the female sex, but the way society describes me to be (other than physically) is more of a male, although I am not entirely masculine, nor feminine. I am androgynous because I fit nicely in the middle of what society expects me to be; I seem to not 100% fit into the male category, and especially not the female category.

I consider homosexuality and heterosexuality to depend on sex, not gender, so my being attracted to males, and being sexually a female, I am heterosexual.

Don't think that transgenderism is impossible. Transgenders have been created mostly by society. When we are rejected by society for being different for not fitting into our sex roles, we do not see ourselves as that gender. Like, according to society, I should have like Barbies when I was a child, not Hotwheels, I should wear dresses, and I should act a certain way. I do not do these things, so I cannot consider myself a girl.

Society has grouped people according to the way they are born according to someone's ideas of what each sex should be like. Like a rule book that should brainwash every individual. If you do not follow this rulebook, you are considered a freak. Therefore, if you are a female and you prefer men's fashion, or are a male that likes My Little Pony, then you are a freak.

Society needs to stop this. All sex means is whether you can carry a baby or fertilize it, and which parts of the brain you use. That's it. The "Y" chromosome doesn't say "Hey, buddy! You have to like the color blue!". Society has warped peoples' minds with nonsense. Gender segregation should not exist except maybe in special situations, like restrooms. I should not have to sit on one side of the bus because I can bear a child, and my friend on the other side because he can produce sperm.

Having the sexual organs do more then just mean you can do one part of the reproduction process. Take testosterone for example, it causes facial hair growth (one of the many "events" that it causes us to associated male identity). Estrogen on the other hand develops the breasts in women and decelerates height growth (like testosterone it does much more then just this).

Why do you have such an negative view towards Society? things like newborns being associated with an color is just an petty social habit (grand scheme of things it's to let others know generally what sex the babe is). You also must consider that it is not society but, our bodies and minds which identify with an set of characteristics of being male and female. I have given example of what estrogen and testosterone does to the body, now as humans do we not identity with like minded individuals and tend to group together? In great generalizations there ARE common grounds on which all females and males tend to act alike, and by that does society come to the conclusion how we should at least identify with one sex. It doesn't matter what you watch, play with, or dress. Society problem is when you try to identity with the opposite (cross dressing it not the clothing that is the issue but the forced identity) by forcing others to see what you are not. As long as you identify with the given sex that you are, how you act is of little concern.

Last to add, we do not live in an Utopian society. Criminals abound, and given the situation that is the one of the prime reason why sex segregation exits is to protect the opposite sex from predators. Well you might say only one person out of many, but all it takes is one person to harm someone OR cause an pact mentality to take hold. To also to add I do not have to mention much about the human races libido and what person wants to be in that situation?

I still think that brainwash is a major part of it, though. I like to use myself for an example because I know myself. When I was a child, I was introduced to both dolls and cars, and I hated dolls and loved cars. I also "cross-dress" sometimes (I used to always "cross-dress"), and I do not act feminine. I even apparently don't think like a girl according to some kind of scientific study because several differences they gave for males and females did not match me; if I was only judged by that, I would be a male.

I don't even believe that there is a such thing as cross-dressing. For example, in ancient times, everyone wore things similar to dresses, like the Greeks do in the greek statues. Not just women. Also, in medieval times, men wore tunics, sometimes with tights, not pants. What is a tunic? A short dress. Men wore kilts in Scotland. What is that? A knee-length skirt. Societies all around the world decided how they would name and categorize clothing according to sex. Flair-legged jeans used to be worn by men in the 70s or 80s (I don't know exactly), yet if a man wears them now, they are considered gay or something because now only women wear them. I guarantee that if I made clothing for women that looked like mens or the other way around, they would be worn by the sex I created them for, because people are so blind about things; all they know is what the label says because that is how society taught them.

Anyway, we have strayed off the topic. I read in a magazine that there was a female Japanese band that was having a hard time becoming a band because of their sex, so they disguised themselves as boys. Is stuff like that common? Is is really that much harder for females to get jobs than males?