外国人
 

So, I'm curious. How do we feel about the word 外国人? In America, I only heard the word "foreigner" when referring to politics or immigration; we usually call people by their nationality.

Is calling anybody who isn't Japanese a "foreigner" ignorant? Has anyone noticed how the Japanese call people 外国人 even when they're in the 外国人's country? I also see the word tend to be psychologically lumped together with "English", so when someone mentions "外国人" I start to see nervous reactions, like, "oh shit I can't speak English".

What are your thoughts, o fellow dwellers of this strange, strange little island?

外人 is the word most people seem to have a problem with, even some Japanese people themselves. 外国人 is the more "appropriate" term. I've never been really that bothered by either phrase, though, to be honest. It's not difficult to see why there is a blanket term for foreigners in Japan, because Japan is such a homogeneous country. I'd say it's more ignorant to toss around the word 'foreigner' in the US (and many parts of Europe) than it is in Japan.

You're absolutely right, and it is a blanket term for foreigners in Japan. The reason I bring this topic up is because I realized that this is also a blanket term, apparently, for anyone in the world who isn't Japanese. At least that's my observation. What do you think? It wouldn't shock me at all, as many Japanese are pretty globally ignorant (like Americans, only Americans at least strive (out of fear) to be politically correct!).

its just a word that states a fact.

like foreigner.

so the word alone shouldnt be offensive, unless youre really sensitive for some reason. in a sense just saying gaijin instead of gaikokujin, is the same thing as saying "oh look there goes a black man" as opposed to saying " there goes a man of african descent"

its the context in which its used, like adding "bloody" to foreigner that makes it offensive surely.

lol, bloody foreigners.

Actually, most foreigners (there it is again!) in Japan think gaijin is a contraction of gaikokujin. Etymologically, it isn't. Check out this wikipedia article for some more information; it's actually really interesting. As far as "gaijin" is concerned, I think it's kind of akin to the "n" word in America; we can say it, but you can't. If I'm hanging around with some foreign buddies and we call each other gaijin, it's all in good fun. But when a grumpy old man or some punk kid walks past and is muttering "gaijin this, gaijin that, *&($!@ing gaijin" (it's happened a lot), then we have a problem. When I'm sitting at a bar I frequent and the bartender (whom I know, but is often drunk himself so maybe this isn't his fault) is talking about me to new customers, calling me "the gaijin", we have a problem.

Er... sorry. I derailed my own thread. I'm not too terribly sensitive, but I've also never been a minority before, so it's tough, and easy to get offended. I'm working on it! :) I'm putting more effort into understanding word usage, and why Japanese people act the way they do around foreigners, rather than just getting angry about it. Well... it's a learning process! ;)

Anyway, I agree that it states a fact. But what's wrong with saying "amerikajin" or "igilisujin"? We in the west do it, especially in news reports, on television, when introducing friends, etc. In Japan, in all of those situations, it's "gaikokujin". My focus here is that the Japanese seem to use it in reference to anybody who isn't Japanese, even if that person is in their own country, and even if the Japanese person saying it is they themselves overseas. If a Japanese person goes to Italy and walks around saying "woww look at all the gaikokujin here!" (It's happened, I have video evidence :( ), someone needs to get smacked.

The mistake non-Japanese make is to think 外国人 or 外人 means "foreigner". In Japanese context this isn't the case. 外国人 or 外人 means "non-Japanese". the 国 of 外国人 is Japan. Once this is understood, then the word(s) become easier to deal with.

Hm. Good point. Like how 国語 refers to Japanese. Hmmmmm...

So still, what's wrong with them saying イタリア人 or イギリス人? Is it too hard? I know Katakana sucks but still.

Dude, you are a gaijin in Japan. Accept it or get on the next plane. Americans aren't that much better at distinguishing Puerto Ricans from Mexicans from Cubans...and these are countries that are less than 5000 miles away from us. Why should Japanese be able to distinguish Canadians from Americans from English...all dudes from different continents.

That would be like asking me to distinguish a Kuwati from a Saudi from an Iraqi.

Put it in that perspective I think the island country of Japan does a pretty damn good job.

Come on man, don't go that route with me. Obviously I've accepted it or I wouldn't've come BACK to Japan, and I wouldn't be working so hard to stay here. I'm not making any arguments or anything, I'm just asking what you guys think.

I'm certainly not gonna turn into another Debito, but I know what "gaijin" means and where it comes from, and I know that nobody really says it in a nice, innocent way.

Either way, that's why this thread is about "gaikokujin". However, you answered my question when you told me that the 国 refers to Japan.

Pretty much satsifies my question.

I know you are "in the trenches" so I hope my words are taken with the spirit intended. As a "veteran" sometimes I speak differently to actualists compared to those in fantasy mode. And Kudos to you for doing it.

It sounds like you got your answer...

i agree that it can be used in the same way and with the same meaning as the "n" word. but at the same time i do believe that if you ask the majority of japanese people they will tell you that they use gaijin simply as a contraction of gaikokujin. i think the gaikokujin is used for things like proper writing and tv and stuff like that. you know how they have proper polite japanese and regular japanese.

even the wiki article, which is a very interesting read, ultimately links the "gai" part to refer to outsiders, as well as enemies. and if you take into account that japan is pretty much all japanese people, the easiest way to distinguish people is by being from here or not. and you know how the japanese love pigeon holing everyone and everything into categories they can understand easily.

so whether its offensive or not i think depends on context,.... for example, ol grumpy racsist dude who sees you then starts muttering gaijin this or gaijin that,.... i'll be more than happy to smack him one before you do. but the bartender telling another customer he has a gaijin client could be proud of the fact, and simply didnt say gaikokujin,..... unless he's obviously not enjoying your patronage, in which case i'm sure you'll get the hint without the word gaijin being dropped.

take my case for example, i grew up and lived outside japan for all of my life and have only just returned. i dont even speak the damn language, and i'm only half japanese. but technically on paper i'm japanese, even though i dont consider myself one of them.

the one thing i've noticed is that i'm referred to as "the gaijin" as a way to tell people i'm being introduced to, how to act around me,.... or if one was really neurotic, to tell people why i might insult them by not doing something "the japanese way". you know how big they are on this kind of crap.

now i could get really pissed about that last bit, but i've found that more often than not, "he's a gaijin" means "you can chill and relax around him as he wont judge you on how you sit seiza or how you eat your senbei".

more often than not, and if its not said by one of those nationalist morons in black landcruisers, gaijin or gaikokujin comes with it a sense of awe and a bit of envy,... as in "man, dude doesnt have to deal with all the crap we do, lucky him". its why they always ask the standard " so what do you think about japan?" question,.... they want to know your point of view,.... whether you tell the honest truth is up to you and whether they like the honest truth or not is up to them.

its tough being a minority, i've been one my whole life, and even when i'm here i'm still a minority, if not an immediately obvious one haha. but you get used to it, and with it comes alot of perks, like not having to put up with the bullshit the locals have to on a daily basis. I mean I would hate to have to be a complete and utter japanese person as it seems like their lives are really really crap, so yeah foreigners that want to be japanese and accepted as japanese completely baffle me, the silly masochists.

i think its kinda like the complaining foreigner thing (which i have been most of my life and will continue to be here), you can choose to make it a big deal every time you hear it, or you can choose to make it an issue only when its being used offensively.

If someone called me a foreigner in America...would I be mad??

I wouldn't even know..

Although I don't get it much now when I was at school I was constantly bullied for not being English by a lot of people. Now that school is in the past it's different since there are more mature people and I'm am not immediately obvious as a foreigner if someone looks at me for the first time. This doesn't mean that I've forgotten what it's like. Some people are just idiots where you go but if someone says to someone that I'm Scottish it doesn't offend me.

Also a quick question. I never thought that 国 always refered to Japan before. But even after you've told me this I have something confusing me. I mean I can understand it but what about in the context of 中国. In that context it's China is it not?

Correct, 中国 is China. China has always referred to itself as the "Middle Kingdom" (not to be confused with the Egyptian Middle Kingdom period), and this reflects in the modern name for the country, both in Chinese and Japanese as well.

@Trunker: What a fantastic post. I feel great after reading that. I feel like we should hang out now, stop being in Nagoya, haha :D

Doesn't that mean that 国 doesn't mean Japan in that context though?

haha I never was in nagoya!

passed by on the way to osaka a while ago but nah im down south in nagasaki man.

Read what I wrote again: the 国 of 外国人 is Japan. Just by itself 国 means "country".

日本　= japan silly =P

???????????????

sorry, just to clear things up for those who may have been confused. Cuz i was confused at first when it seemed like things were worded in that 国語 国　ment japanese and japan!

thought some one else may have been too ..

外 outside/other
国 countory
人 person/people

外国人：person of other country (than Japan)

国 countory
語 langage

国語=(our) country's langage = Japanese langage (for Japanese people)

just correcting the misspelled words=
:vsign:

Oops, Appreciated!