Got job offer in Japan, Please help to take final decision
 

Dear Friends,

I have recently got an offer for job in Osaka.The company has offered a salary 200,000 JPY / Month, from which 48,000 JPY Housing rent will be deducted. Everything such as transportation, insurance, tax, utitility bills have to be paid by me.

I have no idea how much is other expences. I can only figure out that the salary converts into 2130 USD. But whether it is good offer, I don't know.

I would appreciate if anyone suggest me his/her openion regarding this. Also what is average salary for a mechanical engineer with 5 year of experience there in Japan?

Also please let me know average cost of following things ( Approximate cost on Monthly basis)-
1. Food - 1 person
2. average phone charge (excluding ISD call)
3. Internet access charge
4. Average transportation charge (If I stay 15 KM away from office)

Please reply soon as I need this information for a critical decision.

Thanks

premnath

========
人日本知っている

日本、くださいで得た仕事のオファーが給与を比較する のに役立つ

親愛なる友人、

私は最近、20万円/月、そこから48,000円住宅の賃貸料が差し引かれる給与を 提供していますOsaka.The会社の仕事のオファーを持ってい る。交通、保険、税などのすべてが、 utitilityの法案は、私が負担しなければならない。

私はアイデアをどのように多くの他の费ですが。私だけ では給料が2130ドルに変換を把握することができます。� �かし、かどうかは良いオファーですが、私にはわから� �い。

誰もが彼/彼女のopenionはこの問題について私を提案する場合、私� �幸いです。また、どのようなメカニカルエンジニアの� �均給与日本での経験が5年でですか？

また、私は物事（月額に基づいておおよその費用）を次 の平均コストを教えてください -
1。フード - 1人
2。 ISDの呼び出しを除く平均電話料金（）
3。インターネットアクセスチャージ
4。平均輸送費（もし私が15キロ離れた所から滞在）

私は重要な決定は、この情報を必要に応じてくださいす ぐにご返信ください。

感謝
premnath
=================

That is a little on the low side, if you were to ask me, especially if 1/4 of your salary is taken for rent, but it is certainly livable if you don't party too much.

It is livable if you are single and lead a fairly quiet lifestyle while here, but it is an entry-level salary- not what people with 5 years experience would usually get here.

I make quite a bit more than that, and I have less experience than you, in a more competitive job area.

I would be wary of this, because anyone with an engineering degree should be (as market rates go) making more than I do, and with five years experience you should be making even more.

That being said, MMM is correct. It is a wage you can live on, given you watch your dining out, your social activities, and don't have any excessively expensive hobbies.

5 years experience and they want to give that salary?
If I'm not mistaken, that's the salary for fresh graduates..

Hmm... I think that everyone is getting a little too focused on his experience and not thinking about how Japanese companies work.
You may have 5 years experience - but it was at another company, doing something else. They would be taking you on at the bottom of the ladder, which is pretty normal if you haven`t been asked to come to work for them from some other company.
Even people changing jobs with 5~10 years experience often start off on the bottom rung. The experience just makes it easier to move up fairly quickly.

5 years experience going into a different company will get you base pay - which is generally around 200,000yen these days. 5 years experience in the same company will earn you more.

Anyway - the base pay of 200,000/month isn`t all that low for starting out. It is the other things that concern me. It`s normal for companies to cover transportation - they should cover yours. What is their overtime policy? No overtime with lights off at going home time? Limited overtime (only pay 20 hours? 50 hours? 100 hours?) Unlimited overtime? How are their bonuses? One or two a year? Each being on average how many months pay? Do they have a reward system in place? (giving employees mini-bonuses at final accounting based on profit levels) This is the type of information that is needed to actually give you some real advice on the company.

Before judging your monthly pay you have to take into account that you are probably going to be a part-time worker limited to working 29.5 hours per week. This is usually the case with foreign workers as the company won't have to offer the additional benefits that full-time workers get. Any hours worked past the 29.5 you are scheduled for will result in overtime pay.

For part-time work, 200k yen per month is about what new-grads get when starting with a company. You should expect a raise each year with each new contract.

As for monthly expenses, those are very relative. But, here is what I figure to be the best average:

Food, 30,000 yen per month,
Cell phone, 4500 yen per month,
Internet, 3500 yen per month,
Gas, 3000 yen per month,
Electricity, 5000 yen per month,

Transportation is generally reimbursed, I don't know any companies who don't pay for at least part of an employee's transportation. If you are traveling 15 kilometers per day, your train fare is probably going to be around 500 yen per day. For those who commute 30 minutes or more, many companies will also compensate for commuting time.

1. What do you want from life?
2. What will you be giving up? (job/home/girl, boy/wife, husband/lifestyle/car)
3. What are the risks?
4. What are the benefits?

A. What is the apartment like?
B. What is your prospective employer like?
C. Can you speak Japanese?
D. How secure is the offered position?

Average salary? For an engineer who doesn't speak a word of Japanese and needs to be sponsored? Or for someone who's completely bilingual and has a visa.

for a mechanical engineer, as in a civil engineer, with five year's experience, i would even go so far as to say that it is 200,000 is very low. not knowing under exactly what premises you will work under, i would ask for at least double that amount, and perhaps even more.

to be honest, the amount 200,000 would make me somewhat suspicious.

He didn't say he was doing something else. Becoming an engineer is almost as long winded as becoming a doctor. If someone mentions their experience whilst applying for a job, it's very likely that the experience is in engineering, and not only that, in a very specific field of engineering, unless of course, they're looking to change field.
So, I'd agree with you if someone had 5 years experience in something that had nothing to do with his new job, but generally this applies to all companies in all countries. What good would 5 years experience in Accounting do, if someone was applying for an IT job?!

I am not sure where you are getting this info from, but I know a lot of foreigners who work in IT and finance in Japan, and none of them are in the situation you describe. They are all either full time contract employees or seishain. For eikaiwa teachers and ALTs the 29.5 hour work week so that the company can avoid paying into shakai hoken is common, but not in other fields in my experience.

I'm guessing the hours from the monthly pay, Japanese law states that foreigners must be paid the same as a Japanese working for the same position. A Japanese engineer working full-time for a reputable company is going to make much more than 200k yen per month. A part-time position will pay in the neighborhood of what the OP has indicated.

More and more companies are saving money by hiring part-time staff, or subcontracting through temp agencies, entry-level, full-time positions are becoming more and more scarce.

No, he has 5 years of experience doing something else. He has NOT been working on the same project and in the same system as the new company he will be entering. This DOES make a difference. I don`t know how it is outside of Japan, but he WOULD be starting at the bottom in the new company because he has NOT been working on the same thing and has not been working within their system. I know he meant he had 5 years of engineer experience - but that is not what matters. Unless the company recruited him because he was working with them on a project or on the exact same system/machinery/etc - he will start at the same place as a new engineering graduate. That is just how changing jobs in Japan works.

I have no idea where you are getting your info, but for the past 6 years my husband and I have been doing data entry for 12 major university hiring databases and the starting average is 19万/month with 手当て and total bonuses of 2 months a year. No transportation or housing 手当て and it`s still only about 20~21万 for an engineering position. It USED to be higher. Now there are far far more applicants than positions so the entry pay is a lot lower than it used to be. (10 years ago my husband entered at 25万 with 手当て and total bonus of 4 months)

The market for engineering entry positions is NOT a good one right now.

You've said to many people on this forum, "Why would a Japanese company employ a foreigner when it's far less hassle to employ someone Japanese?". If you take this into consideration, other than his 5 years experience, what has he got to offer above other Japanese IF the experience wasn't something valuable to the company? It might not be the same "system" or "project", but when someone decides to change company after 5 years, it's generally for pay, and is generally working in a VERY similar field, especially in Engineering! Most engineers specialise right out of school. Once you specialise, it's pretty much the same thing all over the world, it doesn't matter if it's Japan or Argentina!

But it does matter - that is why he would be starting with low pay.
Read what I said before. You start out at the bottom of the ladder regardless of past experience. The experience may be valuable, yes, but that doesn`t mean you get to skip the steps. That is what I am trying to tell everyone who thinks he should be getting higher pay from the start.

Think of it this way - He has experience enough for them to go through the hassle of hiring him even though he is not Japanese. This means that they are hoping he will be of use to them. But even with a lot of experience, he will not be of use to them the day he starts. Pay is set on rank, and unless he goes up inside the company, his pay will start the same as that of a new recruit.
HOWEVER, because he has the experience and will (likely) be able to be of use to the new company much more quickly than that of a new graduate... He will (likely) be promoted more quickly than a new graduate.

But companies don`t hire on "potential" pay - they hire on the base pay you receive starting out. This is the 20万.

Two people, one with experience and one without, starting at the same line will have quite a gap between them after a year or so when they reevaluate for promotions and pay changes. Regardless of experience, unless you were pulled in after being lent out to another company, you start out at the bottom. You pretty much NEVER start out in a ranked position (like what someone with 5 years of in-house experience would have). That is just the way Japanese companies work.

Plus... Japanese students don`t specialize. That IS a big difference, and why this sort of thing is the norm in Japanese companies. You specialize once you`ve been hired - in school you only do a broad study. The company trains you and you specialize once hired. This means that someone coming in from another company needs to be trained regardless of experience. This is also why once past a certain age - no matter how much experience you have, and how high a post you had in your previous company, etc... You can almost never find a new position. It is assumed you will be too set in that company`s "way of doing things" to be trained in the new company`s "way of doing things".

It is just the way Japanese companies function, and it seems to lead to all sorts of shock and confusion when people with 5 or 10 years experience get a job in Japan as they expect to get the same type of pay they`d gotten before and expect to be dropped into a cushy position... But instead start in the same place in the same way as everyone else entering anew.

Japan is Japan, not "the rest of the world"...

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying! I UNDERSTAND what you're saying, but that's with respect to JAPANESE! It's been long said that once a Japanese person starts work in one company, he stays there till he/she is retired! I'm not debating that.

Look at it this way. My soon to be sister in law got ACCEPTED for a high ranking job in Yokohama coming from Korea because of her EXPERIENCE and English level! This was in engineering! And before you ask, it wasn't one of those rare foreign engineering companies in Japan, it was a Japanese company.

I really don't think it works like you're saying. I guessed you would say the "going up in the company quicker" thing, but that's just silly! Japan would never get any half DECENT engineers if they really had to work their way up, even if it was them working their way up quicker! No one would be interested in going to Japan, especially when engineering jobs in Japan are known for their low pay, extra long hours and lack of fringe benefits and/or bonuses.

Secondly, I didn't say students specialised at engineering school. At least, that's not what I wanted to imply! Once you've graduated as an Engineer, in almost every country (i.e. Masters degree level), you're not specialised! From there, you have two options, to continue studying to specialise, or you go into a company to specialise. BUT, you are not specialised after the 5 years of University or Engineering School.

As for the "this is japan, not the rest of the world" remark, I think you should take a look at the rest of the world! Japan isn't so "unique" when it comes to hired foreigners!

EDIT; I forgot to mention. I spoke to my dad about this who asked an old French colleague of his that went to to work as a Marine Mechanical Engineer with 7 years experience. His starting pay was 750,000 JPY / Month

That is why I said;
and
The OP doesn`t clarify if this is his situation. If they are trying to recruit him in on that type of pay - then it is low... But as I have been trying to say... If he/she is applying to jobs in Japan and got accepted to one with that level of pay it will be normal. Even for foreigners with 5 years experience.

It`s fine if you don`t want to believe me - you don`t have to. But I think people should be aware of this and know that 99% of the companies out there aren`t huge international conglomerates that will value native foreign language ability enough to pay you more than what they pay everyone else - regardless of experience. Japan is currently a hot spot for huge areas of the world looking for work, and engineering is pretty darned popular as a career choice. When you have a market flooded with Asian applicants having 10+ years of experience perfectly willing to start out at minimum pay (As is the case with a ton of Indian and Chinese engineers these days) competing with huge market of fresh grads with few job opportunities... The expat dream of hopping into a posh position getting 750,000/month is pretty much just that these days - a dream.

But feel free to hold out incredibly high hopes and ignore people who do have connections in the Japanese engineering field.

Could I propose the idea that you are both 'right'.

That, depending on the company, a prospective engineer could have been employed based on his expertise and been treated to a greater starting pay - exactly because he is a foreigner and can get away with such a thing.

Or, as the OP's info and Nyororin's insight says, he will start at the relative bottom. Depending on the position and department of the company he is entering there may be much greater opportunity for promotion and bonuses than if he were starting at the 'bottom' as a grease monkey.

(for what it's worth, I read a book called 'Blue-Eyed Salaryman' a while back about a foreigner joining mitsubishi in the late 80s - v.different economical era I know - but that generally agreed with what Nyororin said)

*Sigh*, my English must be terrible! I'm always misunderstood on here! He wasn't asked to move to Japan and he didn't work on the same "project/machinery etc". The reason he went to Japan was because of his wife. And all he did, was apply for jobs!


Riiiiiight! I see... So, are you the type of person to not want the same or better as someone else in the same situation as you? I find it ridiculous you think it's high hopes, when plenty of other people have succeeded! If you really did have real connections, rather than just a bunch of friends or family that have told you stories here and there, you'd know that in Japan, getting the job without an exchange program from abroad is the hard part. IF you do get a job without an exchange, then you have something VERY valuable that the company want. And btw, this DOES NOT mean that the person was ASKED to come!

I'm fine with you saying that it does happen for foreigners with experience to start out at the bottom of the ladder, but to say this is what you expect is VERY misleading since I've done extensive research in this (I'm somewhat of an engineering student, and at one point, Japan was my target), AND I've spoken to people that have had the experience of getting much higher than 200k PLUS housing (like my dads colleague).

The question is WHEN. This was fairly common 5+ years ago. In the last 5 years? Not at all. Companies are willing to hire foreigners with skills and experience that they want, but aren`t willing to dish as much out of pocket to get them because there are simply so many people with the skills and experience who DO want to work in Japan and who are willing to work for much less just for the "thrill" of working in Japan. Not to mention the countless "fresh" graduates hunting for a job who have years of (part time) experience and years of intensive post-grad study programs under their belts.

A 20+ year experience top dog might still have a good chance to get into an "expat" position with all the frills, but it is simply NOT a good time and companies are the least willing to do anything special that they have ever been.

If you want to throw a fit and shoot the messenger - fine. Do what you want. You seem to make the assumption that I know nothing and have no connections... Simply because I am not telling you what you want to hear or not the same thing as you have heard elsewhere (Which by the way seems to be a whole lot more "friends and family" than anything I have said...). You`re welcome to think whatever you like - I`ll continue to address my advice to the rest of the people who are willing to listen. I do not know what EVERY company in Japan does, nor have I ever claimed to do so. But I DO have enough knowledge (And not through "friends and family") of a fair number of them to be able to make quite a nice guess as to the rest.

I would take it. I don't think it's easy to get a job offer in Japan=/

Welcome to the worldwide recession! ;)

Rather than me rewriting this, just read it to yourself and imagine I've said it :)

Yes, but the difference is I`m in Japan and have just spent the past month working 10 hours a day translating financial documents for 8622 (8825 if you count companies that filed separately by branch) Japanese engineering and software companies with foreign employees... (As they have to submit all their information to the various countries and do so in English...)

Something I kind of doubt you`ve done.

And still have about 2000 to go. *sigh*
The market is simply NOT supporting the type of situation you are saying is reality. And the example you are giving is a guy who came along with a visa in hand and was lucky enough to get hired on somewhere. That is not the norm.

In with those have been 217 employment search documents for engineers from overseas - a number that has been dropping and dropping each year. These days they are looking for Japanese engineers with foreign language skills and are willing to invest more in training them.
Could you get very lucky and find a high paying position? Sure. But it`s not realistic to expect that. The reality is that most everyone is started out on the bottom rung, and those who were offered those huge salaries are being laid off left and right - being replaced with fresh grads and Chinese or Indian counterparts.

I'm not even going to pretend I know what documents you are talking about!

How do you know he had a visa in hand? I don't even know that! And like I said earlier, the hardest part for a foreigner is to get hired without going through a company exchange program, so once you get hired above any Japanese, you must have something to offer, hence the higher pay!

Now what you're talking about is the recession. I don't know if you're following foreign affairs much, but what you've described is happening everywhere! Not long ago, Deutsche Bank investment devision in London made a big chunk of its employees redundant for fresh grads at cheap. The company I worked for, for the last two summers has started outsourcing more than just a bit of its IT GROUP to India!

Anyway, this'll go on forever! I'm either terrible at English and not making myself clear or I really don't understand what you're saying at all! Either way, I apparently suck at English! To me, I get the impression that you're telling people to not even think about trying for a higher salary because of this recession! But for someone that's heavily invested in engineering and economics/finance, I see a different picture! The recession has changed a lot of things for a lot of countries. Just barely a week ago, I read an article about how Japan is steering away from the marriage to one company business practice! Part time work and contracts are becoming ever more popular due to the recession.

So, lets just say, in Japan as a foreigner, "Hope for the best, but expect the worst", is that fair?

i can only look at myself.
now, i am not an engineer, still, i did not have to start all over as far as my salary was concerned, far from it i would say. that is why i believe that 200,000 JPY is very low for someone with experience.

what the OP could ask is if he/she will be hired as "shinsotsu" 新卒 or "keikensha" 経験者. this will hopefully explain it all.

I'm not jumping into the middle here, but I will say that I understand both Nyororin's points and Noodle's points. I have no idea what the engineering industry looks like, so I cannot say who is right, but both arguments have logical structures, if you accept initial premises. The issue at hand is, whose premises are correct? I don't know.

I know that I would not take 20万 a month. I make quite a bit more than that, and did starting out of the gate. I do know, because I have been told, that one of the reasons I get bonuses and salary increases each year is because it is hard to get someone out where I live who is willing to live in rural Kyoto for extended periods of time. We're short a teacher right now. We have two schools that don't even have AETs. A damn shame, because one of them was the school I was at for two years, and I wish they hadn't transferred me.

So while I would not take the salary, (because I know I could get a higher paying position elsewhere), if I was the OP, I would have to make my decision based on what I know to be true about the market, and what my priorities are.

Also, very personal opinion, accepting a lower salary for the "thrill" of living in Japan is utterly silly. Accepting the only salary offered because you have no other options, and none in your home country, and Japan offers the only economic opportunity you have? Go for it.