Hmm no Rick seemed to be more focused on embracing the culture and if you do you are living in a delusional world.

I understand Japan is not the melting pot America is and is still much more close minded by its very isolated nature. Yes, a gaijin will never be truly Japanese as Japanese is more directly related to ethnic background then the nation in which you live.

American is not an ethnicity nor is Australian...we all came from some other place making us gaijin within our own home.

To say a gaijin should ignore/not embrace the customs of Japan because he will be considered weird/delusional is broken logic.

No one is saying this.

If everyone was walking around in kimono and we were saying that you shouldn`t wear one because you`re not Japanese, you would have a point. But they are not. Embracing customs is fine. Embracing traditional Japanese customs that even most modern Japanese do not follow is what will end with you being considered weird.

No, I was saying exactly what GoNative said. There is nothing wrong with embracing Japanese culture. I am talking about people who think they can actually become Japanese by trying as hard as they can to fit in, and this same person is usually the one who has issues with the culture they were brought up in.

Guess i misinterpreted this part? Why can't it be the people just like that part of the culture? What would normal be? I read this as don't wear a kimono your a gaijin, don't take traditional art classes...just be normal and do whatever you "gaijin" do...

The basis of this discussion was wearing a kimono/yukata in the appropriate situation, no one was discussing wearing a kimono at a rock concert. Taking a traditional art class to "fit in", so learning ikebana obviously is not "normal" and is extreme. Why on earth would a gaijin want to learn that.

Your statement taken at face value to me...reads these are Japanese things gaijins should just be gaijins. Whether this is true or false you provided little to go on. Other posters stated as well that a foreigner should not do these things cause they don't know the cutural significance behind them cause they are gaijin.

RickOshay
"I am talking about people who think they can actually become Japanese by trying as hard as they can to fit in"

I don't think anyone ever in this whole thread said someone thought that could actually "become" Japanese, merely to practice the Japanese culture appropriately. It seems the idea is you can embrace it, but don't try to live it, cause your not Japanese? Again since when is fitting in wrong? I guess I should just look in the mirror and say "I am an Irish American...I like potatoes and celebrate the 4th of July."

You`re still not getting what is being said.

No one has said to never wear a kimono, or to never take traditional art classes (I don`t think that anyone has said anything negative against traditional arts at all, really.)
Normal is, well, what normal people in Japan do. Not some "whatever you gaijin do" sort of thing. Normal Japanese people do not go about wearing kimono, nor have they all mastered some traditional art. To have an interest in some traditional art and to study it is *fine*. It`s *normal* - people who have an interest take classes.

What is NOT normal is rejecting anything that is not traditional, and taking it beyond an interest. As I said, there are people who feel that it is necessary to fit in. Their interest isn`t in the traditional art, but in the fact that it is something, anything, Japanese and not western.
I have never made, nor seen anyone (Japanese or foreign) make negative comments about someone who has an honest interest in some traditional art - even if they dedicate their life to it. The opposite, in fact - they`re given respect regardless of background.
But there is a difference between those people and the kind who reject anything western and who think Japanese culture is in danger of disappearing.

It isn`t necessary to learn some traditional art in order to "fit in". It would be kind of like saying that someone couldn`t fit in, say, in the US unless they could recite the constitution. Normal people do not do that. If you`re a scholar who studies the constitution, that is one thing - but if you spout the joys of American life and quote the constitution or Declaration of Independence at every turn... People are going to give you weird looks. Even in a place with as much variety as the US.

This is something that I have not agreed with. I don`t think it`s impossible for a foreigner to understand cultural significance, etc etc. I initially agreed that, yes, you`re likely to be looked at as weird. I don`t recall telling anyone they shouldn`t go ahead and do it - but rather to be aware that it isn`t likely to make you seem more "Japanese". (Likely the opposite, in fact.) For those who think that the more traditional knowledge they pile on the more "Japanese" or accepted they will become, it can be a rude awakening.

When it is doing something that does the opposite of fitting in.

It is wrong (not wrong-silly) when you cannot do it. Lots of white people try to be black (American).. do you think there is a black person on the planet who would look at that white person and consider them to be black? What I am saying is Japanese people (no matter what you do or how hard you try) will never see you as Japanese. And honestly overdoing it I think kind of turns that person into an eyesore for most Japanese.

Be yourself. They will like you or not like YOU, for who you are not what you try to be.

So your saying we should stick to the racial stereotype of our skin color and features? Got it :rolleyes:

And that is the problem, is what I am saying.

Exactly; it's quite one thing for me to be studying sumi-e- i've done art since I was tiny, i love it, and i'd just as happily do western-style watercolours. In fact, my sumi works often have a fairly obvious western slant with my subject matter and style. I do feel it brings me closer, however, to Japan and Japanese culture.

It would be completely bonkers for me to have, instead, looked at the course list, seen the sumi-e teacher was American and rejected it on the grounds that it wasn't properly 'Japanese', and gone and taken up... i don't know, karate and ikebana instead. I loathe sport, I suck at it, and I'm allergic to a lot of flower pollen. Yet some people totally DID do things like that. I met people doing sum-e, simply because it was so COOL and JAPANESE and traditional but boy did the actual worky-painting bit of it suck, huh?

It was painfully obvious to everyone but them why they sucked at it too; because they didn't really enjoy it. They liked talking about the fact they studied sumi-e much more than actually sitting in the studio studying it and working on their art. Comparing their lacklustre, 'traditional style' pieces with say, the couple of kids who really enjoyed painting but really done an art class, and there was a clear difference. You could just tell who'd sat for five minutes trying to make a classic masterpiece to back up their claims and who'd spent three hours going 'shglkah hahaha YAY! I DRAWED A WONKY FROG!'.

Dude.. just nevermind.. no matter what I say you already have it all figured out just like bobby.... so whatever.... enjoy your ideas while they can last in your mind. Later..;)

I Love your mind Gahzirra!

based purely on what I've read from her posts, and on the people I've met here too, Nyororin is about the maximum any westerner can fit into Japanese culture

if you think you can attain that degree without having moved there at a much younger age, you're deluded,

what do you think Nyororin?
Can someone who moves to Japan at a later stage in their lives hope to fit in to the culture the way you do?
How much do you feel you fit in?

But I wouldn't go to Rome in a Toga, carrying a sword shouting 'Gladiator! Long live the Emperor!'

As such, I wouldn't go into Tokyo in clothing that hasn't been worn for a very long time.

If someone came here to Britain dressed as a knight or king randomly walking around the street... I'd be a little worried.

If you're American, wouldn't you feel a little strange if a bunch of foreigners started coming over dressed as cowboys wrangling cattle? Walking the streets as Matadors if you're Spanish?

Again... context, context, context.

I hope you're not implying that kimonos haven't been worn for a long time. Every single day that I have traveled in Japan, I have seen a woman in a kimono.

Matador outfits aren't normal street clothes; they are purpose-designed costumes.

I really have no idea, to be honest. It is going to depend very much on the person.
I don`t recall trying to "fit in" at any point, I think that I just had several advantages lined up for me. First - I was raised until 12 by strict grandparents. Second - I attended a fairly strict private school before coming to Japan. Both of those things ended up being somewhat close to the Japanese childhood experience (in my opinion), and I think this helped me not to encounter any huge shocks when shifting over to life in Japan. The third would be that I came to Japan before becoming an adult, so all my true "coming of age", reaching independency stuff happened here. I don`t really know what it is like to be an adult outside of this country. I have observed, but I have never had to personally make a living or do any of those adult things outside of Japan. I also came to Japan early enough that it wasn`t hard to pick up the language fluently and without noticeable accent.
And, well, I assume my personality alone has a lot to do with adjustment. I`m just not someone who needs a tightly knit net of family nearby.

The key is likely that part of my growing up was done in Japan in an average Japanese setting. Whether someone without that experience can do the same thing - I don`t know.

I am comfortable and don`t feel any problems. I am clearly not Japanese, but I can`t think of anything that really sets me apart from my Japanese peers and friends other than appearance. I used to think that the horror and discomfort I felt in very formal situations was due to not really fitting in... But as most of my friends are the same way, I no longer think so.
My friends are people I get along with who share the same interests - which is, well, pretty normal.

I would say the part that I fit in least is my handwriting. I came to Japan well after everyone had finished with all that, and into a school that allowed everything to be printed... so... well, while I can read with no problems - my handwriting sucks so I avoid writing anything by hand.

-----

My personal opinion - chances are, if you`re gung-ho about fitting in, and you go out of your way to do things you think will help you fit in... You`re probably not going to. Going through the motions is fine, I suppose, but overdoing it (as it seems most people who are making active efforts to fit in, making "assimilation" their goal do) will just make you stand out more. If you have to push and make the effort, you`re going to be trying to change who you are. The same as in a relationship, if you`re pretending to be someone you aren`t, eventually you`re going to be frustrated or your true colors will show through. Even if it isn`t "Japanese" - you`re likely much better off in the long run being yourself while being careful to remember basic cultural rules than trying to maintain a facade and going crazy with frustration.

I`ve never tried to fit in, or to be anyone other than myself. In my case, I suppose I am just lucky because "myself" doesn`t have any trouble fitting in.

these customs are generally no longer practiced in their respective countries,

where as in Japan they are.

but, hundreds of years ago if a Japanese person came to Britain dressed as a knight, it would be weird ;)
or, if a Japanese person went to America a few hundred years ago dressed as a cowboy it would be funny as hell, and no one would have consider that Japanese person to be American regardless, not even that Japanese person :)

Thanks for answer, I think it pretty well summarizes the issues raised in this thread.

Personally I wouldn't want to fit in, I benefit very much from not fitting in and am so very happy to be the different one.
So long as I'm not being ostracized (too much) then I reap the benefits of being the outsider while still being on the inside somewhat, as much as I am comfortable being there that is.

Ugghh, man you are not some special snowflake. I am just playing devil's advocate and am by no means a Japanophile. Just can't stand when someone thinks there idea of "I moved to Japan, I chose to speak the language, I follow many of the customs" but that's me I am normal...the guy that wears the yukata yea he is trying to fit. LMFAO you even recounted the story yourself when you first came to Japan, the other kids picked on you cause you had a passion for Japan they did not share(read- to them you were fitting in and were a kiss a$$ hence why you were picked on).

The hypocrisy of this just annoys me. You are automatically assuming the guy doing these things is out of a need to fit in...how do you know he just doesn't have a passion for Japan like you did?? Ohh yea, that's right... SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE you and all the others who moved to Japan you did it out of a passion for the country but your level of "fitting in" is normal..psshh.

Spare me the BS of I am an individual I don't fit it I am just "myself"...I enjoy being the outsider. Ya, as much as you think you are some rebel you are not, and it's funny you chose a culture/country where conformity is paramount.

Maybe you should take an English reading comprehension class. Because Nyororin never said anything to that effect.

Ad hominem attacks, I quoted exactly what he put...now if maybe you read the whole thread you would see the stance. My English comprehension is just fine thank you :D

This thread demonstrates Wings original statement
Especially the latter

Ad hominem?

Alright then...

Well point to the part where she says that she is normal while the guy wearing the yukata is trying to fit in?

Because the part you quoted certainly had nothing to do with what you thought she said and after reading her previous post AND taking into account the context it was made (as a reply to RealJames) then I still don't see it.

In fact she goes out of her way to make it known that she's simply representing her experience.

Here you go...Do you need me to also quote the story where they were picked on because they had a passion for Japan that others did not share?

Some rebel? I have no idea where you are getting that from. I am being myself. I am not trying to "fit in". I don`t see that making me any more a rebel than anyone else who is being themselves? I`m not a particularly rebellious person - never have been. Should I change and be someone I am not just to fit in with your image of what foreigners in Japan are like?

I think you missed out that I didn`t say I had a passion - I just didn`t freaking hate Japan. It seems that in your world there is only one extreme or the other.

I came to Japan during high school. Yes I was interested in the country. I don`t recall ever saying anything to the opposite of that. Obviously I didn`t just magically appear in the country out of the blue.

The point is - I am who I am. My experience is my personal experience. I didn`t go out of my way to "fit in". I did what I was comfortable doing and did not do what I was uncomfortable with. I followed the guide of mt peers, who *shock and awe* were Japanese. Because, in case you missed my multiple references, a fair chunk of my schooling was done in Japan in normal Japanese schools.

I suppose if you want to nitpick and say that I "tried to fit in" because I wasn`t running about making sure I was a social outcast - then sure, go ahead. But you`re going to have to say the same thing about ANYONE who has ever been in a school and wanted to have friends.

Doing what everyone else does is not what I was talking about. I was pointing out that there are people out there who go well over and beyond what other people do for the sake of fitting in... And end up totally overshooting the mark - often without even realizing it.

In regard to the other post you seem to be wanting to bring up as some evidence that I`m not who I represent myself as... It seems that you would understand the concept of wanting to experience new things being as you said the same thing about yourself and I pointed out that it was NOT what I was talking about. Trying things is one thing - doing it (and taking it to an extreme) because you think it is going to make you fit in is something entirely different.

All the students in the school took a "traditional culture" class once a month. Did I not opt out of it or think it was the "stupidest thing ever" because I wasn`t Japanese? Nope. I took the classes with everyone else. But I didn`t go on and on that they were the greatest thing ever and so "Japanese", look at me I love Japan, etc etc etc.
I tried things with my peers, most of them also trying things for the first time because the average Japanese person doesn`t do all that much traditional stuff.

But I guess you just want to think that I ran around bowing to "superior" Japanese in some hope that they`ll think I`m worthy of their time and attention, so I don`t really know why I bother replying. Apparently it is completely unthinkable that someone had a different experience than you.

ETA;

I think that Gahzirra missed a few posts there.
To quote myself -

Look Nyo I am not trying to attack you and in regards to the "rebel" thing, I was combining Realjames post as well, sorry for the confusion.

I was merely pointing out as Wise had posted "Then another gaijin will get the same crap for being "too" into the culture." It's a completely subjective point of view. You and many other gaijin are drawing an imaginary line of what you deem is "ok" and what you consider is extreme and the person is trying too hard to fit in.

I understand people have a passion or some love of the culture/country why else would you choose to live there? Yet, why is it so strange for someone to have a greater passion than yours and take it a step further? To me that's like saying my level of interest in Japan is "normal" anything more than that is too extreme and you are obviously trying hard to fit in.

I guess I don't understand how one cannot see the error in this thinking.

I could be sitting here in SoCal and say, "Foreigners who move to Japan and practice the culture to any degree...are just trying hard to fit in." The guy is obviously a wannabe Japanese. I am defining normal as simply having an interest in Japan...moving there is extreme.

This whole idea would be very wrong on my part, I cannot tell anyone how they should think and I cannot use my concept of norm to define another. Who's to say where that line is drawn between norm and extreme?

Reminds me of a philosophy class, where the Professor said the wall is green and the students all said its blue. To which he replied how do you know what I see is what you see?

Hope this makes sense:D

I take no offence to being a rebel, it's the better side of the fence to be on, but...
what did I say/do that was rebellious? ... O.o

Aside from that, I agree that the degrees of "trying to fit in" have a grey-scale of depth and that they are very subjective based on where you stand yourself.

Having said that, there are some milestones, in this case the biggest one being how those native to the culture perceive you.
By definition of the effort at hand, this notch in the grey scale is significant indeed.

Much more sense now, and I can see where you got some of what I was saying wrong.

I don`t think that I am drawing some sort of line... Or, well, I am but it isn`t between what is extreme and what is normal. It is between honest interest (and doing things to fulfill that interest) and "Japan is so cool, OMG, I`ll do all this cultural stuff because it will make me more like the cool Japanese people!! All you people who can`t do the traditional stuff don`t really deserve to be in Japan."

Columbine gave a wonderful example. While that example isn`t in Japan, the same applies to foreigners actually in the country.
There are (quite a number of) people who think Japan is just a perfect heaven on earth, and will go out of their way to do anything because it is "Japanese" and fits into their image of the country... And believe that it will bring them closer to the Japanese people, and make them more "Japanese"... As if they will turn into some godlike being with no problems should they manage it.

My point was never to say that people shouldn`t take part in traditional activities, or that they shouldn`t try new things. What I was saying is that wearing a yukata, even at a festival, isn`t going to make you fit in. Chances are, it will do the opposite. My experience and the opinions of everyone I have asked go along with it being "strange" to see a foreigner out and about in a kimono or yukata. While they might say it looks great, there is a line drawn between trying it on and actually wearing it about. The older people think it`s sweet that a foreigner is trying something traditional, but it stops at "trying" - the assumption is always going to be that it is some cultural experience class sort of thing.

Should this discourage someone from trying something? Of course not. But using that as a path to being "more Japanese" is just silly - which is what I have been trying to say. Normal Japanese don`t really do it on a regular basis, so it stands out even more when someone who already stands out to some extent does it.

As a tangent - There are a ton of people in Japan who are incredibly unhappy because they spend all their time trying to be someone they are not in order to assimilate to some level. (And feel even more frustration on top because even with all their efforts, they often cannot.) I feel that even if they don`t fit in, they would have a much better life and be much happier being themselves instead of striving for a goal that will leave them trapped in the same pattern of living a facade. Obviously everyone should be aware of the big cultural taboos and the basic rules to not cause problems, but it isn`t necessary to force yourself into a life that does not fit in order to be happy in Japan. The only times I can recall being unpleasant to someone about their lifestyle in Japan has been when they made a point out of abusing the system or thought it was great fun to ignore the rules and inconvenience people.

I would go crazy if I were forcing myself to act like someone I am not, and would definitely not be happy. When I said that I don`t try to fit in, this is what I meant. I couldn`t pull off living some facade as I get irritated and frustrated with that sort of thing very quickly. The fact that I apparently fit in fairly well must be because I am just the type of person who fits in - not because I took some incredible effort to shove myself into a Japanese mold.

Such lines are drawn all the time in every society on the planet and very much so in Japanese society. Like it or not, agree with them or not social norms are reasonably well defined within any community you live. Of course you can live outside of these norms but this will always be accommpanied by some form of social stigma.

I'd think these people are the sort of people who didn't 'fit in' back in their home countries. They then create some delusion of how they will fit in perfectly in Japan based on usually quite delusional ideas of what Japanese society is like. They get to Japan (their life's dream) and go so overboard trying to fit in that they only end up doing the opposite. Must be devastating for them! ;)

You didn't say anything rebellious per se, but this is a loose definition of rebel :D

Thanks James, I always think your posts are well thought out. That's all I was getting at is its grey and who's to say what's too extreme and "fitting in" versus having a genuine interest.

@Nyo Thanks better understanding now. As to your tangent, Another perspective--In regards to the people who do all things Japanese cause it is Japanese I would actually think by them not going all out and doing those things would be more of a facade. I would think this makes them happy whether it's right or wrong. If dressing in a yukata makes them happy so be it.

I kind of think of it like at my work...I am an executive at a Japanese company before I was an exec I would dress up for Halloween, once I became an exec it really wasn't normal to dress up so I refrained from it...but I wasn't happy. I was acting like someone I am not, because people subscribed to the idea that exec's are supposed to be stuffy especially at a Japanese company and I bought into it. Now, I dress up and enjoy Halloween, it makes me happy :D

I would not think someone would do something they hate simply for the sake of it being Japanese...in their mind that makes them happy. Now, whether the Japanese find them weird that's another thing...but then again many find what the Japanese do pretty weird as well.

Ohh I understand this of course, it's still very subjective. Most of the US finds Japan to be a place full of weird traditions and strange behaviors. We have a show with a segment called "What's up with Japan?" Attack of the Show I am sure the Japanese don't find it so strange. My contention was just that who's to say they are trying to be something they are not and are just being themselves? We got this all sorted now :D

I myself find it funny how enamored Japan is with all things western because to me its pretty normal but I understand it as the 2 extremes

I think both of these sentences are a little extreme.

Very true... both are generalizations. Didn't want my statements to sound one sided . I was simply trying to illustrate that in both Japan and the US you will find people who have their own idea of what is "norm" on both sides.

I stretched the enamored part. I found it funny in going to many Japanese restaurants/places and hearing American hip hop, The Beatles, and seeing karaoke bars filled with people singing American songs both old and new you simply don't have the flip side of that here. (I heard very little music that actually came from Japan) I had an easier time finding American sports team caps then I did Japanese ones, I mean they had the Clippers!?!

The UK seems to see Japan like that as well. I mean,yeah there's a lot of racists in this country but the point still stands.

What I like about Japan[and mum got annoyed about this],is that there isn't much American stuff on. Television is not a sacred cow. And,while in most people's opinion Japan is 50 years behind[and I have to admit change does happen slowly],that is one respect in which it is quite ahead of it's time.

I don't hate America,don't take that the wrong way. I like your version of Wipeout better than ours. I'm not a Sentai Snob!

While there may not be all that much American stuff on - I think you may find that you`re very wrong about the position of television in Japanese culture. It seems like most people have the tv on constantly. A lot of people find it weird for there not to be a tv on in the background.

The recent NHK drama had a part taking place in the local castle. People were coming from all around the country to visit because of that.

While American television might not be taking the top - just check out stuff like 冬のソナタ and the way it was/is almost worshiped.

Japan is far superior in so many ways compared to us! Actually, it's not just Japan.. but many places in Asia too!

The most significiant difference are the ones people do not recognize.. or just can't!


We all need to learn from countries like Japan! Even after the terrible Disaster struck, people over here still do not realize that we need to bring ourself closer to them.

This society, our society is steady going into the wrong direction!! We can Help by learning from countries like Japan.


The saying is One Person can make a difference right!

Is there a point to this post that somehow fits into this discussion? If not, new thread time?

There are good and bad things in Japanese culture and society just like there are good and bad things in western cultures. Both could learn a lot from each other. Of course you've never actually lived in Japan so you barely have a clue what you're talking about.

The message I wrote was too short :cool: