University Degree: Good Rule or Bad Rule?
 

Do you think the rule of needing a university degree to obtain a work visa in Japan is a good idea or one that's too strict?

I know there are exceptions like the Working Holiday Visa and 10 years experience, but it generally seems that a university degree is the main road for people wanting to move to Japan.

Do you think it's needed to keep time wasters out, doesn't make a difference, or should be scrapped to give everyone a chance?

I know that everyone preaches to people about needing one when the say about wanting to live in Japan, but I've never really seen if people actually agree with it or not. The closest I came was seeing someone saying how it shouldn't be needed, and how the experience is more important, and someone else even saying that no experience and no degree is better.

I wholeheartedly agree with it. There's just no way to be able to grasp a scope of how beneficial it is to have that kind of limitation. You can just see how many other nations are going to the dumps, including the US, because there's zero regulation.

I may complain sometimes that I have to go through a lot of extra red tape being a foreigner in Japan, but at the end of the day, it's not about me, but the whole society.

If people are going to complain about how their "dreams" of moving to Japan are being crushed because they don't have a degree, then they don't have what it takes to be here in the first place.

A degree is not that incredibly hard to get. Even for those without the money, there are countless ways to attend. (For those countries where it is difficult to receive an education, there are programs bringing promising students to Japan for university or apprenticeship programs.)

If you can`t manage to get a degree, you definitely aren`t going to give an employer confidence in your reliability.

Without a degree being used as a regulator, there would have to be some other regulation put in place... One that is potentially more difficult in the long run.

I really don`t see the reasons behind the negativity toward the degree requirement. I find no negatives in receiving more education. (And it isn`t as if they`re asking for a degree from a prestigious school. As long as it`s accredited, anywhere will do!)

It's not that they hate the education. They're simply mad at the fact that they have to put their after high school plans on hold for an extra 3-4 years.

WHOA -do you need a degree to get a job in japan?? :eek:

In most cases that is true, but I`ve seen adults who have been out of school for years complaining about how they absolutely did NOT want to go to university. They were willing to explore any other route to get into Japan, even when it took just as long or longer.

Or the people who are graduating and want to go to Japan in 5 years... Have an independent language study course all thought up, have a plan for saving all the money for an extended trip, and are hunting for loopholes so that they could live in the country... but the idea of attending university during that time so that they can actually stay legally is strangely unthinkable.

Those sort of things are what I was referring to. (If you go back through the threads about moving to Japan, you`ll find numerous examples of these.)

You need a degree to get the visa that would allow you to get a job in Japan. Natives don`t need one as they don`t need a visa.

Oh believe me, there are A LOT of people at my school doing that...

Isn't the number of, for example Americans with degrees quite low? I read somewhere that it was around the 25% mark? Don't remember where I saw it exactly, but that seems to be the trend among some countries.

Yes, everything you said I fully agree with. Especially the point about other countries with less regulation. There's just no denying it.

It's just a relief that (so far) Japan hasn't buckled to population pressures to throw the floodgates open to everyone...

Exactly, I think it's just because another 4 years of education is shock, horror and gasp, and just too much work for most people to think about. But as Wings said, these people probably won't get anywhere close to living in Japan. It's just annoying that they seem to be the one cluttering up forums and such.

Heh, if they put as much effort into getting a degree as they did trying to find loopholes to avoid it, they'd probably be more than qualified.
It's probably because they find planning things such as funds, language options and such more fun than buckling down to work.

Yes, that's true. Quite ironic considering they have over 100 of the top 200 universities in the world. While higher education is continually on the rise, you can literally draw on a map which states you can expect an increase and which ones won't. There's such a distinct division currently in the states as far as education, politics, and more. That 25% division is spread pretty thin.

I don't understand this post. Higher Education is on the rise in what way? Quality? Costs?
Increase in what? Students?

Yeah, especially when you think how big the country is. I'm guessing California and the East Coast would get the majority though. But then again, I have no idea what states Harvard and Yale are in... :o

Where do Americans who move to Japan via the degree route usually come from in yours or anyone else's experience? Or is it a pretty mixed bag?

Was that even a rule?

The degree is a hiring preference. If you own a company, don't you want top notch staff? Especially when it will cost you a considerable amount of money and work to hire a foreigner, you have to be sure that this person is up for the job. While there are many ways of gauging that, a university degree is an indication that the candidate at least meet the minimal academic requirement

To me, people who argue that are ones who want to live there but are in denial because they don't qualify

It's like challenging the advise of "smoking is hazardous to health", there people who denie that despite scientific medical proof of how bad smoking is

Just my $0.02

It is a little like arguing how it is unfair that the winner of the race gets the gold medal.

Funnily enough, you're exactly right. At least at my school, which is about 30-35% American, I'd say pretty much everyone I know (including myself) come from either the northeast coast US (from Maryland all up through the New England states) and from the very west coast (many people from California and Washington). Both Harvard and Yale are in the New England states :)
There are people here and there who may be from some random middle America state, but it's hardly a mixed bag. It's not too surprising though because most of the education comes from the areas highlighted anyway.

Considering the degree can be in just about anything it's not so much the subject BUT the fact you completed four years of Uni. That shows commitment, responsibilty etc...

Do I agree with it ? I don't know but it's not something anyone can change but Japan, quite simply if you want to work there there are hurdles to it like any other country, that is simply one of them.

Don't like or agree with it, well tough ! They don't care to hear your argument putting it another way if you weren't born in the US you can't be president of the US. It's as inflexible as that.

Japan views immigration very differently then most countries, it's not a question of fair or not it's their country and their rules period.

Adapt !

Is it "Japan" that we need to change, or just organizational expectation of potential employers?

As we all have mentioned in many other thread, its a matter of whether "its worth it" or not. Academic achievement gauge more than the person's ability to conduct the work, but their grade is also an indication of their ability to learn and their sense of responsibilities

I used to hire testing and development staff on a regular basis (I am in the software field). I don't know the candidate, nor do I have any references aside from the resume. The first thing I usually read is the education section, because that tells me if this person will have the basic knowledge of the field.

If I have to go through the trouble of: Filling out an approval for hiring a foreigner, going through finances to get the proper funding, getting legal involved to settle visa requirements and any other legal work; The candidate better be the second son of Jesus and can walk on water on my request....

That piece of paper does not make you the best candidate, but it at least suggest you are in the realm of the best.... unless we can change people's expectation of wanting the best, otherwise, I don't think anything can be done around it..

I strongly agree with it and I wish England had it. It would mean that only the most educated of people are able to live in the country and that they would usually always have something interesting to offer the country they wish to reside in.

In England (and the UK in general), the number of people attending higher education in recent years has strongly increased, probably due to finances being more readily available and more advertising of University's. Since the new government took over and tripled the Uni fees for 2012, I expect there will probably be a sharp decline however in the next few years.

Totally valid.
Something like 30% of people have a degree now, the way society is structured these days it is so that anyone with half a brain has no choice but to try and go to university.
It only makes sense the Japanese would want the best of foreign countries, they've enough uneducated people of their own to fill jobs that require such people.

Though they should take in more refugees too, in addition to the educated economic migrants.

Definitely! Getting a degree will help you a lot...However it doesn't mean that you are always qualified or that once you get one a job is guaranteed. Quite a few people nowadays think like that...getting a degree= always getting a job which isn't necessarily the truth

It will never happen in England. Your country relies too much on the cheap labour it imports from Eastern Europe/Africa/Middle East etc. to do all the stuff that you don't want to do for a fraction of the price.

Slightly off topic, but....I don't think North America is any different, thats why all the off shore outsourcing.. its not even things that people don't want to do, its jobs that people can have and WANT to have but are out sourced for a fraction of the price

It's a good point as I think it's touching on a similar incentive that businesses and companies and ultimately governments competing in a world economy have.

More relevant examples would be the way in which illegal immigration is exploited the even the relative ease one can migrate to the USA legally (compared to Japan).

The green card lottery for example (If you haven't heard of it, the USA holds a lottery open to foreign nationals, the prize being a US green card)

Oh - I know it won't, but I wish it did.

Also, it's not because the people in our country don't WANT to do these jobs, it's just they can get others to do them for a fraction of the price. To be honest though, our minimum wage is fairly high and I doubt we are making huge savings by having foreign workers, though to be honest I don't know enough about it to comment fairly.

As reference only:

Minimum wage in Canada is about 7 dollars/hr, that will equate to about 14000 dollar a year for someone working full time - 40 hours work week, 50 weeks a year (assuming 2 weeks vacation)

An average test engineer or software development engineer's salary is approximately 45000 - 65000 a year. BUT, thats just salary alone. So let say, on an average about 5000 a month per staff... in the case of the company i work for, we estimated that each staff cost us about 12300 a month, that includes their salary (The said 5000), associated insurance, real estate and other operational cost

NOW, if we outsource this job to a foreign country, let say India or China, the cost will come down to about 4000 a month. Even if we request to have the staff sent over here temporarily (just a temporary work visa),the cost will only go up to about 7200 a month...

Minimum wage in Ontario, Canada is $10.25 and has been for a bit.

Thanks Polar, that will change the base number i was using.. sorry for the misleading info guys, haven't been following on the minimum wage for a while

at 10.25 an hour, yearly wage will be about 20500, assuming 40 hours workweek and 50 weeks in a year

The rest of the stat will be the same.. thats roughly how much i was paying my guys before...

A surprising number of foreigners in Japan do not have a degree, probably more than half. The majority of these are married to Japanese citizens, or working in fields in which they qualify for a visa without a degree (like chefs or cooks). And then there are others who are business owners who have incorporated in Japan and were able to get "investor" visas for themselves.

Perhaps Japan's degree requirements will motivate more students to go to college.

Funny, there was a time when I used to think that $10 an hour was pretty good pay. Nowadays working full time for that amount wouldn't even pay my rent... I can't imagine the convenience store clerks here in Tokyo getting by on 600 to 800 yen per hour.

Those are two different things
 

I also wanted to add my two cents (the European ones), but then I noticed I'd be just echoing Godwine-san.

I've been in Japan for four years, just got married and since my second radioactive fallout seems to be lamer than my first (please do NOT call me lucky), extended my visa too. I got my M.Sc before coming, and I also find no rapport with people who dismiss education. I am very experienced in my relevant field, and 100% convinced that nobody would have let me accumulate that relevant experience without the M.Sc. I would not have met dozens of Japanese exchange students and gotten the idea of going to work to Japan, had I worked at McDonalds or something straight after high school instead of working hard in the university.

Education and experience are not sugar and salt, they are two separate things, except that accumulation of experience speeds up tenfold when one has a degree to open those flood gates.

Further, "education" has a specific meaning (many, in fact) with standards, but "experience" has not. "Experience of doing what, and by who's standards?" is very valid question. University students also need to pay rent, go shopping, clean house and relax, just like "experience-claiming" people do.

I didn't come to Japan to change it. I'm simply not interested in changing others to my own image. Japan have strict rules, but they can be played with, and that's often fun to everybody's advantage. I.e. my application for visa renewal was accepted in four days with no questions asked instead of the advertised 1-3 months inspection. I don't know how long it should take, but a Japanese Visa lawyer was astohinsed by this. But I have no delusions of what my M.Sc. degree (and the accompanying letter in Japanese) played in it.

Probably a stupid question, but what kind of school is your school? International university? English language?
I'm guessing it's because they're the most culturally mixed areas, too. California gets Japantown and most of the Anime fests and Japanese tourists and stuff, with East Coast states not far behind.
Of course, that's just my guess, it could be for any reasons.
Ahh I see. For some reason I never pictured them all the way up there. :L

Yes, I do think we should follow that example. It's just too bad about the whole cheap labour thing you said about. :/

It's strange though. I agree that there are increasing numbers going to uni, but I still hear that lots and lots of people are still being turned down after an overcrowded, strenuous selection process. I'm not sure if that's because they're popular universities or not though.

Can you give a source or somewhere where you saw this? I honestly haven''t seen anywhere that's given a number of people with degrees there, so it'll be interesting to read.
A surprising conclusion though. I would have thought that the amount of people there on a spousal visa would be very very low, seems as a marriage takes a lot, lot longer to achieve and more commitment in most cases.

My school is an international university. You're right, both California and the East Coast both have quite a large Japanese culture following. My hometown (Baltimore) hosts one of the largest Anime conventions on the East Coast every year called "Otakon," although I've never been.

I do support this rule by the Japanese Government however, they overlook apprenticeships a little to easily in my eyes. It should be equal to a Bachelors degree. And if people are good at what they do in their specific topic, then they should get the chance to go to Japan and work there just as well as an overrated Bachelor degree from a 21 year old with no life experience.

That's a good point.
I agree Bachelors are often overrated also.
The problem is quantifying it, Bachelors are easy, tangible even.
Apprenticeships are difficult to show and validate and I know of no internationally accredited apprenticeship institutions.

The semantics of legal and social systems are a bad fit for real life.

It's rather obvious. The Nigerian doormen you see in Roppongi and Harajuku are not university educated, few have even high school educations. The Israeli food and souvenir sellers do not have degrees, and quite a few English teachers are also here without degrees.

Western foreigners make less than 1% of the foreign population in Japan, so it's easy to overlook those from Africa or other parts of Asia, and the greater part of the people from these places have no degree of any type. Some stay on special visa for service industry workers, others came as students or tourists, and are not in Japan legally (a few times a week a large bus full of overstayers leaves from the detention center in Shinagawa and heads to Narita to be deported).

As for the Nigerians, they are all married to Japanese citizens, and the same is true of many others. When I was at the drivers license center taking my driving test, most of the other test-takers were also married to Japanese men or women. None that I was aware of were unversity educated, a few were Filipino housewives, one was an American soldier with a Japanese wife, while others were dependents of mixed families.

Exactly how does formal education remove or prevent "life experience" from people?

I hear the same claims all over again, all over the world. They are all identical, and that is suspicious to say the least. Nobody doesn't seem to be willing to explain how a non-educated person's "life experience" might be in any way greater than a student's of similar age, and that has led me to the conclusion that this idea is not their own, just copy&pasted from somebody.

This might be a little harsh to say out loud, but employers will always choose the one with knowledge and possible contacts of the field and concrete proof of a desire to improve oneself, rather than the one who simply claims undefined "life experience", most likely from a completely irrelevant field.

Sorry to be so confrontational, but I believe my point is valid. Everybody is born equal, but after that, those who work hard for their future should have more than those who just expect automatic rewards. And yes, your "hard work" is defined as such by others only, not you yourself.

I agree. I always feel like people who don't have a degree are always trying to lowball my education by saying their X amount of experience is worth more. And, people always treat the two as if they're mutually exclusive. Throughout my education I've held several different jobs and internships, both providing me with valuable experience relevant to my field of study, which has killed two birds with one stone. That's worth more than "life experience," as you said.

True true, sometimes it's hard to remember how much of the foreign population of Japan westerners make. I made the mistake of assuming you meant Westerners exclusively in your post, sorry. :o

I don't know if you know or not, but in regard to the Nigerians marrying Japanese, are the marriages truly legit, or are they just scam marriages that some people try? If it's scam marriages, it just seems like such an un-Japanese thing to do (on the Japanese partners side of things of course).

And wow, I'd love to know how the English teachers manage to pull off coming over without a degree. I thought Japanese immigration were really strict with this stuff. Unless they came in via the 10 years experience route of course.

Yes, this is exactly the other end of the scale I was expecting to come into this thread, about claiming life experience is more important and how wanting a degree is too strict. Seems that they're in the minority though.

I've experienced it too, the whole lowballing my education, and I haven't even been to university (not sure what the American equivalent of a British college is, but it's only one step down from uni)! And yes, it was from someone who hasn't even gone that far, assuming she was going to become a millionaire businesswoman by basically... luck and 'street' experience.

Even if their life experience would be more useful than a degree, it'd be just too hard to pick the genuine people from that.

I also agree strongly with this. I often wonder what these peoples' 'life experience' actually is. I've been all over the world and experienced so many wonderful things because of my education, I don't usually understand how someone who hasn't taken up these opportunities can be any better or worse when it comes to 'life experience.' Surely all types of experiences are life experiences and education is a way to expand such experiences, in my view.

Personally I often find it's just a way to dimiss their own failures in education as something positive, and that is harsh but often true.

Thats very true James. And this is exactly the Problem with apprenticeships around the World.

For example, here in Germany it's the most common thing to do for the majority of young people and if you don't have one, then you count as a laborer everywhere you go. But when you look overseas, like Japan for example most countries do not even have something like an apprenticeship or can't define one.

It takes 3 1/2 years for us to archive one, with school and everything around it. I think it's a huge step in life and should be acknowledged around the World.

The only thing what counts in this World is evidence you are correct here. Experience in all kind of fields means nothing if you haven't the graduation to actually prove it. School and University is great and you will learn what you choose, but it doesn't get much further then that. When you choose to study the English language, then you will study the English language.. but it won't help you to get around in this World with a 3 year Bachelors degree or give you any Life Experience sitting in full class room and reading English novels.

Life-Experience is something you can only get when you move around, do all kinds of Jobs, travel in all kinds of countries and perhaps study aboard.. far away from your actual home and beloved ones. Travel to countries where your mother tongue isn't the first language for example, away from your close friends and try to get along there by your own.

Attending the school of Life is what I mean!!


Like Kintaro Oe :)

Kintaro, despite having met the requirements for a law degree, left Tokyo University without graduating. Golden Boy depicts his living the life of a free spirit, roaming Japan from town to town, job to job. During his travels, Kintaro meets several women whose lives he dramatically changes, despite poor first impressions. He constantly observes and studies the people and events around him, recording his findings in a notebook he carries on his belt.

I don`t think there was any negativity directed toward life experience in itself. I think that the point Acjama was trying to make was that it seems like formal education and life experience are mutually exclusive. As in, if you have one you cannot have the other.

That makes no sense, as obviously the best case scenario is to have life experience backed by a formal education. Both can only take you so far...

Given the choice though, I would choose someone with just a formal education over someone with nothing but life experience. Life experience is helpful, but I don`t think it can replace an education.

An example to illustrate this;

A does B.

1. Life Experience - A does B, because every time I`ve done A, it has resulted in B.

2. Formal Education - A does B almost all of the time, and here are the actual reasons. But the more reliable, 100% option would be AAC does B so let`s do that to be safe.

3. Formal Education + Life Experience - A does B most of the time, and will suffice in almost all cases. But if it doesn`t work, toss another A and a C in there and we can get it doing B for sure.

Sure, 1 may encounter a time when A doesn`t do B - but without the education they likely won`t know why and won`t know what to do to counter it. 3 is the best choice, followed by 2 and then 1.