This is the second time the notion that it is only men who want premarital sex has come up in this thread.

Are there no men who also want to wait until marriage? I can assure you, there are. I knew a rather religious young man in college who got much pressure from his then girlfriend to sleep with him, despite the fact he had promised himself to wait for marriage.

So I think, if this is your moral outlook, gender lines should not be drawn in this topic.

Japan is less than 1% Christian. S. Korea is more like 90%+ Christian, so that does make a difference, and yes arranged marriages still happen in Japan, but not at the rate they used to.

I actually can't understand the incredible importance some people attatch to sex. It's something that is fun and very enjoyable. Why wait till you're married? I can understand if you're religious I guess but otherwise what is the point? I have never been someone to just sleep around with anyone and everyone I can but I had numerous sexual partners before I was married. I don't think it made me a better or worse person in anyway whatsoever. Why deny yourself an experience that is a lot of fun? I've certainly never cared one way or the other if a partner of mine was a virgin! My wife certainly wasn't ;)

One hundred percent agreed.

i agree that women also use men for sex but i think the ratio to men doing it is much lower!

secondly it doesnt matter how fun sex is, not goodness always comes out of it! what about all the std's less serious and more serious like aids etc that gets spread because of it?? a big reason that countries like africa have this problem with aids (and im not just making this up i actually watched a programme on it) is that they have alot of unprotected sex and then they contract it, get pregnant and pass it on to their kids who have no blame in it!
not to mention all the abortions and children who are born from such promiscuity to parents who prob dont even remember eachother let alone who can take care of the child! in england the other day in the paper it mentioned a 10 year old getting pregnant! thats the kind of thing u can expect to happen when u have such open views on sexuality in a country IMO
yes you could argue that if u have safe sex its ok, but not all contraceptives work all the time! thats a fact, they arent a guarantee!

either way to each his own, IMO ppl shud wait till they get married, sorry if i offended anyone :)

missprincess...jesus lady....

africa has sky-rocketing aids because of christian beliefs. christian missionaries go there to the spread "the good word" about contraception being bad - and yes thats exactly what church says - it's bad for ya!
so. you have 500 million people following this belief since uneducated minds are easy to control + great poverty and simply NOT being able to afford condoms etc.

and you should take it to account that africa still counts as 3rd world rural area and these areas tend to have families with a lot more children since:
1. agriculture, labour takes time and manpower not like in city were one businessmen could feed a country if he wanted to
2. looooots of free time. what in the hell would they do but to have sex? play computer games? go to clubs - well they dont have anything resembling entertainment but their traditions and sex!


so before bash someone of having something nature INTENDED think twice!

The 'Sex before marriage,yes or no?' debate seems to be raging,so i'll add my two yen here.

My personal belief is that no sex before marriage is not particularly pratical. My belief would be more akin to'No sex untill the relationship is developed' that is to say,jumping in bed with a relative stranger who you've known for three days=bad. Being sexually active with a partner where both people know each other and trust each other is up to the individual preferences. The point being,there really shouldn't be a hard and fast rule where sex is concerned,because it is a personal thing tailored to the individual couple.

Sex is an intimate act,which far too many people these days fail to realise. It is an intimate act that should only happen when both people are ready,and know what they're getting in to(no pun intended)

[/opinionated rant]

firstly I NEVER BASHED ANYONE! if you think casual sex and sex b4 marriage is ok thats totally ur opinion, didnt u read the bit at the bottom where i said sorry if i offended anyone??
yes its true there are alot of christians in africa (but whats that got to do with anything?) the point is casual sex is not necessarily a good thing (since it has been stated b4 that no one shud have a problem with it unless their religous) and that just proves that point, alot of people with alot of times on their hands in rural areas are bound to get up to this kind of thing with numerous partners etc and thats how aids has spread (esp with people coming in and out of cities and to villages and back etc)
im NOT saying if u do it ur bad! im just saying that if you do, it doesnt mean that everything that comes from it is necessarily good!

missprinces, if you dont know, then dont write.
what the F. was the bs about coming in and out of the cities?

christians in africa has EVERYTHING to do with aids spreading and everything to do with your post stating that because of sex africa is in deep trouble. and answer is no - africa is in trouble because people are being denied access to prophylactics by religion.
all of those diseases can be stopped by a condom. now you have uneducated ppl thinking that they will go to hell if they use a condom (given they can actually find one) but the necessity of having large family is still there for them so they wouldn't starve to death. so they have the dilemma - screw over people preaching but who occasionally bring them supplies or not to procreate and suffer. and they simply go and choose not to use a condom so they would have a "win win" situation. new family member on the way and no hell in sight.

P.S i don't care when and how and with who does the individual wants to have sex - free choice in modern world. but what sets me off is when people bring in arguments - look what sex does to africa without knowing actual reasons of it.

I am curious what your basis is for this statement. I don't think it is simply an aggressor/victim situation. People who sleep around, sleep around. There isn't always a victim.

You're moral stance is clear, and I wasn't arguing against it. Go with what you believe in.

However, this will not become a religious discussion. They always end with bad blood and no resolution. Let's stay on the topic of Japanese views on dating, and not Christianity in Africa.

Bloody hell where on earth do you live? Have you never heard of condoms?? All the things you talk about above are not an issue if you use them. For the incredibly small percentage of times that things might go wrong with a condom it's hardly woth worrying about. You're probably more likely statistically to get run over by a car or hit by lightning. Christ almighty, live a little!

As I said earlier unless you have some religious issues with sex before marriage then I can't see any valid reason whatsoever not to enjoy yourself. You may argue something on moral grounds but such arguments in this day and age are ridiculous. There's nothing imoral with having sex before marriage unless you're one of those religious types. I can tell you one thing, I've never met a guy who is concerned one little bit whether or not a girl is a virgin. There's nothing that attractive about it.

The world is full of all kinds of people and all kinds of belief systems. No need to attack her just because you don't have the same belief system.

And this is not on topic. No one is going to change anyone's fundamental beliefs on JF, so don't even try.

Where is the 'attack'?? I couldn't care less what she decides to do for herself but don't try and make out that it's somehow a morally superior position to hold.

And threads do evolve and branch out from the original topic over time. Should we start a new thread every single time this happens?

BS really?
 

first off you need to calm the F down! if your so sure aids in africa can be wiped out with condoms i suggest you take a large shipment over there or write a letter to the UN instead of complaining about it here, you obviously seem to know alot more about how not to get an STD then i do, so i guess i cant argue with you on that one - and to be honest i dont think i wanna know how you know more then me on that one either.

in my opinion (and get where i said MY OPINION) using a condom is not a good enough reason to go around having multiple sexual partners, esp in a country where they struggle to buy food let alone a friggin trojan. maybe instead if they were just faithful to one person (guessing that people dont find that morally repulsive anymore either) there would be alot less STD's being spread around esp if they cant afford to buy a condom aswell.

secondly...

''what the F. was the bs about coming in and out of the cities?''

i saw a documentary on channel 4 in the uk that ONE of the reasons (note i sed one and not main) is that lorry drivers who transport goods from cities in to villages have unprotected sex with young girls (mostly all underage) who prostitute themselves, to these truck drivers who subsequently pass the virus onto their other sexual partners. in addition to this (and this may disappoint you because it doesnt involve any christians) alot of illegal immigrants who are predominantly farm workers ''have multiple sexual partners in South Africa and have irregular (get this) CONDOM USE'' (so they DO USE them!!!). and since you think i know nothing about this, i got you a link from 'the south african regional poverty network' website so you can read what they wrote after conducting studies in africa and not just take my word for it...

LINK: SARPN - HIV/AIDS

also one of the main reasons that aids is spreading is because people have multiple partners and unprotected sex not because they are christians and dont use condoms! in addition to that they have access to the condoms but dont bother using them! for example a quote from the website which confirms the channel 4 doc i watched 'sex workers are often of school-going age and rarely insist on condom use' (not because their christians!!)

thirdly their are plenty of other predominantly christian countries in the world and alot of them dont have the same problems as africa has, so i dont think that your theory of religon destroying africa is a viable one. in fact religon encourges people to stay faithful to one person and not have multiple partners so incase u cant buy condoms you dont have a problem with spreading STD's becoz ull only ever be with one person anyway!

lack of condom use and promiscuity go hand in hand (not just according to me but to the studies aswell), where people cant afford to buy condoms and not everybody can maybe they shud stick to one person or keep their bloody legs closed and the pants zipped (its easier and its free).

BTW thanks MMM for sticking up for me

I guess what is normal speaking to you comes across as rather direct and condescending.

Where's the attack? Hmm?

And, please, did I say that anyone was morally superior to anyone else? Please don't put words in my mouth.

That wasn't directed at you.

And yes I guess us Aussies often are rather direct. If I were to attack someone on this forum believe me it would be a lot more colourful than my comments above! :D

Keep in mind what is normal Aussie speak sounds like attacks to non-Aussies. I think things might go better from here on out.

even if it was directed at me which im guessing it was, i never at any point sed that i felt morally higher then anyone else, moreover with ur very 'direct' way of writing here which MMM gave great examples of (thanks) i could say that you feel you have a morally higher stance then most people here. esp since im not the only one who felt like u were being rather 'forward' and somewhat brash.

wow. well if it's like you said - you've "actually seen a program on it" then it must be true. :D

you are involving all christians when i'm only talking about what happens in africa.
1. no no and no. they dont have access to condoms and those very few who do have option HAVE to face the christian belief system that's there and often they can't go against it. how could they? no education no nothing - they probably don't even know wtf is STD.
2. how many partners? who cares? in the city on average it is normal to have had 9 different sexual partners - there are some who have had also only 1 (few of those) and those who have had 25. sooo....why aren't cities just haveing corpses on the corners of the streets? ill help you answer :cool:
2.1 freedom from religion - free choice to make in what you belive. only if you let them one can be told not to use condoms but not forced to.
2.2 since people are far more educated they understand that by using a condom doesn't matter with how many ppl. they sleep with.
2.3 ou snap! we do actually have them unlike them.

sooo...go and be virgin and stop saying the dumbest things about the part of the world that you have gotten to know via one tv show.

P.S having had multiple sexual partners actually is smarter when it comes to marriage. if people are experienced the sex is going to be that much better and the marriage life will benefit greatly and there wouldn't be so many divorces.

Just out of curiosity....where are you getting all of this nonsense from?
Africa's HIV rate isn't due to religion, ignorance or lack of condoms.
The primary cause of the rapid spread in HIV is nothing more than poverty.
Condoms are readily available throughout Africa. But guess what, condoms aren't 100% effective. It takes nothing less than a small hole in it to render it useless.

HIV spreads because people living in third world countries don't have the facilities/means to seek proper medical advice/aid constantly. As a result, the virus spreads far and wide. Some people can live and die without even knowing they're infected. That's the reality of the matter....NOT religion.

Your nonsense is abhorrent to be honest. Especially for someone who's talking so confidently about something so baseless.
If religion was such a huge factor on who gets/does not get infected with HIV, then the numbers would dwindle wouldn't they? After all, according to you, the citizens of Africa are so illiterate that they follow Christianity blindly. If that were the case, they wouldn't be engaging in sex out of wedlock now would they?

Even people with HIV in America can barely afford the medical support to keep the virus in check... Africa is just a victim of poverty.

I think there's a bit more to it than just poverty but poverty and education are definitely huge issues. There are also many cultural and traditional practices which have assisted the spread of the disease as well.

A couple of links to some of the factors that have made the spread of AIDS in Africa so much more than in other regions of the world. The 1st one is a bit dated but from the 2nd article almost 20 years later it appears the same issues are persisting.

Cultural practices contributing to the transmission of HIV in Africa

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/wo...1cameroon.html

I'd like to give my 2 cents here.

In my experience, I've found certain areas of Japanese culture to affect dating. For example, the oldest son gets to keep the house (in the traditional situation, which may occur more often in rural areas). For instance, if there is a house with only girls, and the oldest son of another house meets the oldest girl of another house sure they might date. However, there will be pressure from both families in regards their kid staying at their house (as in keeping the house after the parents die). If, for instance, the younger sister of the oldest daughter of the one house is already married and moved out (which implies her name is changed) then there will be a lot of pressure from that side of the family to A. find a partner who is a younger brother or B. find a partner who isn't obligated to keep their house's name. So if the older brother of the other house's younger brother has married and moved out, then there is a good chance the relationship won't last simply because of logistical reasons.

In regards to sex, dating usually means sex in Japan in my experience. Some people don't have to date to do it either. In Japan the main contraseptive seems to be the condom. Pills seem to have a bad wrap and I've heard doctors in Japan don't give them out as readily in Japan as in America. If people in Japan take the pill, most of the time it is to help their period rather than for birth control (again, in my experience). And as far as sex before marriage goes, of course that's how it goes here. Lately that seems to be the way to get married... any time someone gets married that I know it's either a 出来ちゃった or a suspected 出来ちゃった. I may not have an eloquent way of putting things, but not having sex with someone before you marry them is like not test driving a car or testing out an instrument before you buy it. I feel the same way about living situations... if you don't live with someone for a period of time before you're married you might be in for a terrible surprise (or a wonderful one, depending on the person of course). Marriage should be a commitment for life, especially when you get kids in the picture...

So from my perspective, I think that it is hard for Japanese people to live together before they marry... this is either because living situations are limited (size or law wise) or there is some kind of pressure from the parents (it would be hard for a daughter who lives at home to move out with someone who they aren't married with). On the other hand, these very circumstances make things like love hotels a good idea in Japan (business wise especially). They provide a safe place outside of a limited living area with protection, TV, karaoke, baths, etc.

I'm sure I glossed over a lot, but that's the extremely short version on what I've picked up on.

Go Native, most of those are definitely plausible ways that the virus can spread. I was just focusing my argument towards the guy who seems so adamant to correlate HIV with Christianity. However, most of those reasons brought up in the articles aren’t exclusive to Africa. Tribal rituals (primarily scarring) are seen globally (tattoos, markings etc), homosexuality is global, promiscuity is global, so is zoophilia. It doesn’t take more than one infected individual to spread AIDS. So ask yourself what the ultimate difference between Africa and these countries are.

The all-encompassing reason is poverty.

Your NY Times article states there’s only 1 doctor for around 40,000 people. Now couple that with the typical native’s inability to pay for medical attention. The probability of ever knowing you’re infected until it’s too late to suppress the virus is next to zero. And even if you know, how will you afford to pay for consistent medical attention? Unfortunately, Africa isn’t full of Magic Johnsons. Poverty in Africa isn’t poverty in America, Australia, Europe or most of Asia….it is extreme. I was born there, I went to school there and I consider it my home. I’ve seen a lot. We weren’t rich, but we lived comfortably in a highly industrial setting, yet we couldn’t even afford routine check-ups. That’s the state of the continent.

People can’t afford medical attention, thus they don’t know until it’s too late and continue to live life like anyone else around them. By the time they’re done, they’ve probably infected others through one means or another. It’s a never-ending cycle.

My japanese friend did not have a choice when she married.

As the eldest sister she was expected to marry first. It was definitely Arranged by her very strict father. I am uncertain of the year that she married, possibly early 1960's.

from what she has told me her marriage was unhappy-- although her husband died ten years after they were married

exactly. and here is my beef with Christianity. even thou these people in Africa can't generally access these things Christianity takes extra steps to ensure even when they do they don't use them by preaching that it is bad. at that's just one big load that irritates me. they go there and help these people - food, medicine, education and etc. good people helping other people in need. but asking this little thing is a "no no" for them. a simple thing which is so cheap considering other expenses and yet it would be so effective.
not saying condoms would save everyone. but lets say a million - sounds to me important enough.

Just as an offtopic question, what christians are preaching that kind of believe? I've never heard of that, I've heard about not doing something before getting married, or not to get involved with more people, but never heard that being safe is "christian banned".

I believe. the Catholic religion bans contraception-- which in this day and age is more than ridiculous/ They are still in the dark ages

When POPE JOHN PAUL was incharge he was very anti Birth control.

so the catholic church had definitely not acted inthe sensible way.


BBC - Religions - Christianity: Contraception

Woah guys, on topic please. No religious disccusion here. Thanks.

2.4 Topics of religion and sexual orientation are not permitted.

maybe but the point is that because of certain religions banning contraception-- spread of AIDS. So it is relevant.

Sleeping around means no respect but merely LUST.

Making love to a partner that you LOVE-- is spiritually superior.

How many children are born because of indiscriminate sex?

A WIFE is supposed to be pure------- and surely that was meant for the male.

But in this day and age-- anything seems to go. Just Practicing? Have some self respect and respect for partners..


It is not a surprise that there are so many STD'S.

ALl those babies in UK that were taken away from their mothers and placed into Care or Adopted.

How is it relevant to the original topic, which is dating in Japan? :mtongue:

Whether this is hearsay or not, I seem to have quite a lot in my head about Japanese love hotels. I would love to cite references I really would, but as most knowledge I just kept the info, not where I first read or heard it, so take with a pinch of salt!

Many Japanese live with their parents until they get married, mainly for economical/financial reasons. Similar to in the U.K if they don't "escape" into their own little flat after leaving Uni and dorm rooms, they may end up back at home for many years.

This makes dating impractical in that you can't take even a quite serious boyfriend back home to stay over and spend cosy time together, whether this includes sex or not, while Mum, Dad and little brother are all in.

In this situations couples choose to stay in a hotel together, I know this happens in the UK too for people in similar situations, just seems that Japanese hotels cashed in on the idea, and started making hotels that cater especially for couples who want just a couple hours alone together not in a public place such as a restaurant.

Once (if) the relationship gets serious enough to introduce to the parents, they may still choose not to stay in the small, paperthin(literally) walls of Japanese houses with the parents in the next room.

The so called love-hotels also get used for one-night stands, affairs and anything else you can imagine due to the convenience, however I doubt this was the original intention of them.

Spin off hotels offer themes, from the relatively harmless cute/romantic pink and fluffy covered in hearts type all the way up to catering for the serious fetish markets. Extreme examples of these tend to be those that hit western news, as "shock horror those Japanese perverts are at it again"
As always this is not the norm, otherwise it wouldn't be news right :mtongue:

Most Japanese business/budget hotels seem to also offer a on the night, or by the hour rate if you know who to ask or where to look.

1. first of if you dont have a problem jumping from one person to the next like fleas on a dog it doesnt mean that everyone who doesnt do so is bad, I have no respect for people who are sexually promiscuous


2. second generally speaking i dont know where documentaries are like where u come form but in England they have specialist journalists who lived in these areas for years (mostly from birth) research these issues and present them to the world who wouldn’t otherwise know about them! thats the whole point. your trying to tell me that everything you know about africa you actually went and found out yourself? or let me guess you read it somewhere or saw it somewhere. documentaries are not less credible then books and written media or whatever u seem to use, so yeh if i did see it on a 'programme' presented by someone who had more experience and knowledge then me in that area i would believe it! and guess what i'm not gonna be the only one who does that!


3. third the things i sed werent stuff i made up one day becoz i had a serious prob with Christians, i actually gave you link (if you managed to walk outta whatever lala land you seem to live in where Christians destroyed all known humanity and see it) and i directly quoted from that! so its not just my own submissions but infact research conducted by credible organisations from africa which are saying these things, if you wanna say that they dont know what their talking about either then you are even more deluded and egocentric then i first assumed!

4. last you think sex is the only reason people get divorced? LMAO OMG i feel sorry for your missus! nuff sed


SORRY ADMIN I'LL GET BACK TO TOPIC NOW! I'm tired of arguing with someone has no idea what there talking about anyway, so im jutst going to ignore them from now on

thanks everyone for your views ON THE TOPIC its defo enlightening to hear about some of your experiences

mmm well responding to some of the earlier posts that there seems to be a view that its better to have sex before marriage-- so you know what it will be like when you take the plunge. So what if the partner doesn't fit the bill/


marriage is not all about sex-- thank Heaven. Love means so much more than sex. I've been married for over forty six odd years-------------


I hope whoever dates who in Japan that there is always respect and not just one night stands.

Promiscuity can lead to many bad things including unwanted diseases and children.

Dating in Japan

interesting info. Does anyone agree with this?

Just getting through the first couple of paragraphs, you can tell this is written from the perspective of a foreigner about foreigners dating Japanese.

I can agree with a lot of what it is saying though, and kind of apply it to dating in general. Some of it is a bit... huh? though.

While a lot of people argue that Japanese have a hard time meeting new people after a certain age, if one is active it isn't as hard as it's made out to be. There are many places that offer 習い事, which is like "classes" I guess you could say. So while I've never heard of "salsa dance classes", I have heard of a number of other kinds of things like that. This isn't stuff that is really geared for foreigners, but it's not like foreigners are excluded or anything. At places like that you can meet all kinds of new people both men and women. Even if you meet someone of the same sex, you can sometimes find yourself in their "circle" of friends (who might be from high school or middle school or work or something like that) and you can get dates like that, especially if you are at the marrying age.

As far as the age separation thing being normal goes.... I don't think so. Men can be about 10 years older than their wives, but if one looks significantly older than the other I don't think it'd be considered normal. It's just that people won't "turn their heads" out of respect. Sometimes you'll see an old man walking around with a 20-something year old lady who obviously isn't his daughter. Nobody thinks that's normal... it's probably just a guy going on a date with a lady from some bar somewhere.

The sudden "shunning" by means of no-mail sounds kind of right. I can't imagine an intimate relationship ending up like that though. It's true that it might happen at the beginning of a relationship, but I wouldn't say it's normal after many years of a relationship.

I don't know though, maybe all my views are skewed. At any rate, that article should be titled "dating in Japan: a foreigner's guide" or something like that. It doesn't really explain the process of a Japanese couple too well. If at all, just purely by coincidence.

stop pulling sh*t from the air. :cool: i said there would be less divorces because sex is a part of a healthy marriage and the better partners are at it the greater chances they won't feel the need to look for it elsewhere.

you think if you saw it on tv its true? yea - i saw a programme where they said that the moon landing was fake and they tried to prove it - and they did. and yet i could disprove all of the points because im not a fcking monkey who believes everything on tv and i actually have working knowledge of things. not to say your programme was false but i feel that you feel pretty smart just after turning on Discovery channel.

So when i said that those beliefs are damaging health of thousands of people that's because i know that. church even comes out and says it. so...im so annoyed by your damn posts that i'm just going to ask you directly:

Are you saying that i am wrong when i said that thousands get sick because of Churches strong beliefs against protected sex and the resulting deaths as a result?

P.S when you add to your paragraphs "1.2.3" you don't need to follow them by writing down "first.second.third" - here everyone is familiar with numbers. :cool:

I think that there are still a lot of interesting things that could be said about what the OP was asking about, so it would be a shame if this thread were to go because it turned into a religious discussion. I know the temptation to go into all of that stuff, believe me.

As far as sex being a reason for divorce goes... I've heard of a lot of divorces in Japan that were because of it (as in cheating). I have no statistics to go by, but I think that has something to do with a lot of divorces these days in Japan. I'm sure there are many other reasons though.

well I am certain there can be many reasons for divorces. We have so many in this country-- or split partners.

Often simply the stress of modern life and shortage of money can be a big contribution.


I read that many salary men go off with their colleagues to certain places

Have a good time away from the wife etc.

It would be good to get the woman's Point of view.


Unhappy sexual relations can be caused by many things. But I wonder how many married Japanese women are loyal in their marriages-- or whether they have affairs?


They are all human after all. I still say there is more to a good marriage than sex. Once children come along that is an extra consideration surely.

If women have to work and place the child/ren into day care-- that can cost a lot.

About.com: http://www.salonmag.com/people/feature/2000/08/07/coupling

Here is an item-- its a bit like speed dating here in UK I think.

For someone like me (too shy to "get a date"), would be a good idea even in this part of the world, but for many of the other people that use it, it's just a way of "getting layed" (excuse the expression used, but this is the reality) cheap - i mean instead of her paying for*, and him paying for*, they get together and both obtain what they wanted at a much lower cost.

* it's implied I mean services, sexual oriented ones.