There are many more white women in Japan than black women, as far as minorities go you'd be a minority of a minority, which honestly would make you more exotic, amplifying whatever good and bad points a white woman might experience.
Your experiences with pictures and touching are hilarious lol, some of my younger students often ask to touch my arm-hair ><

I asked you before, but you I'll say it again, are you prepared to fit the stereotypical housewife role that would be expected from you as a wife?

For the very few black friends I have here in Japan, they all seem to agree on one thing, a massive relief of racial judgment and differentiation against white people, that when they came here they were suddenly aware of huge racial walls that were lifted.
I don't want to turn this into a white/black prejudice issue of modern society, but as far as that goes it seems like all the black people I know in Japan are a lot happier here than they were back at home (my best friend is a black guy that lived in the same town as me back in Canada, and moved here after I came here, it's from him I'm getting most of this opinion).

Yeah, I have you say that it was the first time I was looked at as just an American, with no color... it was nice... One of the reasons I like to go back actually. I didn't get a few more looks and stares than the other Americans but I don't take it personally. If I see someone like an Albino walk past me I stare, not to be mean, but because I don't see them everyday. They are interesting to me.

Like I said, I'm not sure how good I'd be at being a housewife (although women are starting to branch out of that role a little these days and work full time). But, as a novelist, I'd be in the house most of the time anyway to write and, with that, take care of what needs to be done at home. (I would probably have to get a part time job to get out of the house though, which isn't uncommon).

Arm-Hair?! えええ？That's a new one. You totally win in the weird touch request contest. haha.

ほんまほんま！　w
the worst part is they don't stop... and I had to you the "you get to touch my arm hair only if you finish your exercises!" hahaha

But if it isn't for the right reasons, then it is for the wrong reasons, no?

A marriage is not like selling a car. It is a life-long relationship between not only two people, but two families. Eventually those "wrong reasons" are going to surface.

No, not at all. Things do NOT change when the foreign side speaks perfect Japanese. Things do not change if they clearly want to live in Japan for the rest of their life.

It isn`t a language issue. It is a race issue. Language issues certainly don`t trigger "Think of what the children will have to deal with because they`re mixed!"

I assure you my husband can`t speak English - he actively avoided it in school, opting for German instead - and that we have only ever spoke Japanese.... And I have only ever spoken Japanese to anyone around us. (I`m fluent, and have a "standard" accent, so no suspicion of poor language in there either). But that had nothing to do with the change in reactions when things changed from dating to getting married.

ETA;

To add my opinion on the differences in treatment toward black people in Japan.

There seem to be more Africans here than African-Americans. I do not personally know any African-American women married to Japanese men, but do know of a few African women, and a (black) Brazilian women married to Japanese men.
The stigma attached to specific race is mostly removed. There is no link in peoples minds to poverty, crime, etc. So while a person will be seen as "foreign" - it doesn`t carry much of a different meaning than all the other non-Asian foreigners. I know there is some level of caution given toward large black men, but the base of that is in a totally different place - the majority are in Japan employed as bouncers and for hostess bars to pull in (quite literally) customers with some intimidation.

The African community in Japan is, from what I understand, quite strong and very outgoing and friendly. Thanks to them (at least around here), the first reaction people tend to have when encountering a black person - woman in particular - is an expectation of warmth and friendliness. But this isn`t all good, as if you probe people there is a deeply ingrained link to "darker color = southern islander / wild native = simple people"... Which while it may help in initial impressions and friendliness, it isn`t going to help if your goal is to work in something intellectual.

I think that black women in Japan would probably get the same level of attention as a blonde, blue eyed white woman - just from a different set of people. There are plenty of people interested in rap and gangsta culture on one side, and African art and style on the other. Of course, these are going to be superficial relationships. Just dig through them and get to know normal people.

I guess that depends on the couple, in my case as long as my parents and her parents aren't hassling me or her about our decision then I couldn't really care less what their motives are.
If after a long time passes one of the family members decides to take a turn of opinion or show a bitter or uneducated side of themselves, well this kind of thing happens quite often in any family, intercultural or not.

If after a few years of marriage I found out that her parents were mostly only ok with it because of the prestige they felt it would bring their business, I don't think I'd care so long as they didn't try to get between me and my spouse.

All this is assuming the spouses reasons are in fact not superficial or socially biased.

I am not going to try do discredit your experience, as it is YOUR experience. However, I think it is a little short-sighted to think that Blacks and Whites are seen the same in Japan by all people. You hit the nail on the head when you said most know nothing but what they see on TV. Unfortunately, that's where they learn about Black people because there is little chance for actual interaction.

I am curious if RealJames's gf's racist grandparents would be so excited about her choice for a mate if he was Black instead of blond-haired and blue-eyed. Only he can answer that. (and if he already answered that, I am sorry.)

I understand what you are saying, but in the 13 years since I have moved home, I have been to Japan probably 12 times, and nearly a year put together. For my work I talk to Japanese people every single day. I don't usually talk about these issues, but I am not seeing this interracial revolution you and RealJames are talking about. Digging deeper he called his gf's gps extreme racists. That lines up more with my experience. It isn't racism out of hatred, but racism out of a lack of experience.

Only you can determine why they wanted to be friends with you. I wouldn't dare make a guess.

I hope you aren't implying what I think you are implying. :ywave:

How long has he lived there?

wow that's intense, do you think your parents might be a tad more conservative or old fashioned than most others these days?
and wouldn't being a mixed kid be a bonus in today's society?

well I can't say for sure, but they've met my best friend and have invited him to visit, and take pictures together too lol, once again probably for the wrong reasons. but like inuzuki mentioned, he gets the same treatment i do, and my gf treats him the same way she treats other white gaijin

just a few months, still in the honeymoon phase lol it's funny seeing it in a friend

A bonus in today's society? Ask the kid when he is being hazed in elementary school and junior high school for having a different skin tone and hair color.

At the high school I taught at kids weren't allowed to dye their hair. There were periodic "hair checks" to make sure their hair was black. If it wasn't they were separated from the rest of the grade in a public display. A couple kids had Filipino mothers and had to say in front of everyone they were mixed race, which is a hard thing to do. It was hard for the teachers to know what to do. Many kids pointed at my hair and said "His hair isn't black. Why does mine have to be?"

Keep in mind that mixed race children are 80%+ mixed with other Asian races...Korean, Chinese, Filipino, and that is NOT considered a "bonus" by any means. They may have a harder time getting married, as they don't have a complete "family tree".

Boyfriend's best friend is really different from the guy asking for a hand in marriage.

And honeymoon phase, for sure, I think.

You're right, Japanese people are very negatively racist against other asian peoples, and being a mix with any of them would be tough for kids.
But I wonder if being a mix with one of the non-asian peoples that is viewed positively by the culture would result in the same way.
I can perfectly imagine a kid proudly saying "My hair isn't black 'cuz my daddy is white!" and everyone else going "いいなぁ～" (jealous) you know?

And I imagine that when thinking of the kids troubles, they aren't thinking of school days but more so romantically, in the work-place and career, wouldn't being mixed with a non-asian parent help?
Imo it would, obviously I lack the experience to back it up though.

I agree, quite different, but their (and everyone else's) behaviour towards me and him seem to be the same. Which speaks well of Japan, even if they are equally positively discriminating against a white and a black person, it's still equal lol.

I am, and have the entire time, been talking about peers of the same age. I have not had any issues with my husband`s parents.
I am talking about FRIENDS we had. People in their early 20s at the time. Progressive university students - not conservative and old fashioned older people.

I think you missed that.

Having or being a mixed child is not a bonus in today`s society. Try talking to real mixed children who grew up in Japan, or to parents raising them.
Having someone say "Aww! So cute!!" or "Halfs are so hot!" is not improving quality of life.

OR... try more like 「だから馬鹿なんだぁ～　納得～　ちゃんと日本語分か らないのか～？　うぜぇー」
Kids don`t say いいなぁ～ - they get jealous in a negative way because of the additional attention. You think a boy or girl who is half and maybe thought to be getting some extra attention from the opposite sex is going to be popular with their peers?

I take it you haven't spent much time in Japanese schools. That "いいなぁ～" by the girls is every other boy in the class trying to figure out how to knock you down four pegs. Japanese kids are cruel, I will say it straight out. All kids are cruel, but the system of trying to fit in at Japanese schools (hair color, no piercings, uniforms, etc.) makes things impossible for kids of mixed races. You want to be the only kid with a katakana last name? You want to be assumed you are perfect at English because one of your parents is white? I have seen the "talento" Bekii on TV say more that once she can't speak English, even though everyone assumes she can.
I remember a mixed race contestant on the dating show Ainori. He was a handsome young man with a German dad and Japanese mom, but he was so hazed and stereotyped he became a video game nerd and lived completely in that world. That's just my observation, nothing more.

You're right, I did miss that part.

what you say honestly comes as a surprise to me, it's saddening and I really hope yours is an isolated case, if not at least a minority case.

I have a few friends that are married to japanese people, but haven't heard of anything like this before.

did the criticism continue after the marriage, was it only before and leading up to it? or has it persisted since?

part of what shocks me is that japanese people would even voice an opinion like that let alone have it, I practically have to wrestle opinions out of my friends if they are in any way negative

Of course they TREAT you the same. They aren't Neanderthals!

You're right I have no experience at all in Japanese schools, I have the luxury of dealing with kids one on one, when they appear to be little angels lol.

I can imagine everything you described though, and envision it's quite true, but what of after school?
The life of a celebrity always sucks, mixed or not.
Getting stereotyped is a fact most of the world deals with except those who live in a place where they are the visible majority, and even then must have no defining traits lol (freckles, red hair, too tall, w/e)
Life does favour the aesthetically pleasing, and mixed people tend to fall in that category more than others.
Life would suck for the ugly mixed person though ><

It`s not. I`ve lived in Japan more than 10 years, am a member of multiple communities for international couples, and have talked to countless people. We`re the exception, I suppose, as it was only friends who quietly hinted to my husband to ditch the idea... And not all the relatives and co-workers.

We haven`t maintained contact with most of them after graduation - some of them quietly cut off the friendship because my husband was choosing to ruin his life and not take their advice. We met a few of them a couple years back, and I assure you they were completely shocked that we were still married - and happily at that.

It isn`t as if they were shouting it on the rooftops. No matter how soft spoken someone is, if they feel a friend is making a seriously detrimental decision - they will quietly tell that friend what they think.
And if you don`t think Japanese can have such strong opinions... Well, I am seeing racism here that isn`t coming from the Japanese side.

You know... I really strongly get the feeling that you`re surrounded by the type who love foreigners (superficially) and the type of foreigner who loves Japanese because they`re Japanese.

lol I don't just mean common courtesy and polite behaviour etc
I mean we both get invited to the same parties, girls hit on us just the same, people are not more or less happy if only one of us shows up than if the other did. We both have the same difficulties and and ease making friends. That kind of thing.

lol I also get the feeling that I've been seeing things from one side.
I do have a lot of close friends though, who certainly don't stick around for superficial reasons. I actually try to avoid people who seem interested in hanging around me just because I'm a foreigner, except my students of course...
I was raised in parts of Canada and the Caribbean where most of my friends were not white, I see people for who they really are subconsciously, at least regardless of skin colour or language. I don't love my japanese friends because they are japanese, it's kind of insulting that you'd hint at that, but I understand there are many who are that way and it's not like you know me that well so no offense taken :)

The married couples I know may have chosen not to talk to me about that aspect of their past, like you said you don't keep in touch with those that behaved that way, I assume neither would they, so post-wedding I think it wouldn't be as much of an issue, kind of like "well it's done, not much you can do now" lol

I am not talking about stereotyping with non-celebs, and I am sure Bekii has a fine life, I am talking about discrimination and hazing.

You two keep talking about how beautiful mixed race children are. Beautiful mixed race children get a lot of attention (READ: Hazing in school) but there are plenty of traditionally unattractive children of interracial marriages. I think you are thinking Crystal K and Ana, but these genetic couplings are the minority. The majority are Chinese-Japanese, Korean-Japanese, etc. Oftentimes children of these relationships try and keep that fact a secret, though it will come out at marriage time.

Yeah, like I mentioned, mixed kids with a parent coming from other parts of asia would not be seen well but that's because Japanese people simply don't like people from other parts of asia, mixed or not.
How about a kid from a non-asian, well perceived, ethnicity?


PS: loving this thread!

I`m not necessarily referring to you, but rather to those around you. To those who you are exposed to. There are tons of foreigners out there dating Japanese because, well, they can. The type of Japanese they date tend to be the type who date foreigners because they think it`s cool. It`s a subculture on it`s own, and I think that is what you are seeing. That is what is coloring your image of things. Well, that, some level of honeymoon thinking, and positive racism on your part toward Japanese people.

Japanese people have just as strong of opinions as anyone else. That they don`t and are all nice and kind people at heart is a huge stereotype. Likely it`s what you`ve experienced though as the wall that comes with superficial friendships will make all that invisible.

You just haven`t seen the other side of the wall.

It`s kind of like going to a performance and thinking that all the actors are really like that ... But there is another world behind the stage. The backstage world isn`t bad, but it`s much much different than what is put on the stage for the public world to see...

I would find it very hard to imagine that anyone who has lived in Japan for more than even 6 months wouldn't have seen the other side of the "wall" you mention.

Perhaps in my trying to point out that Japan is as good a place to live for foreigners as any, I have left out the bad experiences I've had here, and the acidic parts of the culture that I rather not relate to, but I'm very well aware of them though. I've lived in 5 countries and visited many more and have experienced the same "dark side" in all cultures, that's simply humanity, and I think it's important to remove that from one's judgment of Japan. If anything, that people culturally try to avoid showing that dark side to the rest of the world is a lot more than most cultures can say for themselves.

edit:
I could just as easily say that you've spent most of the last 10 years surrounded by the difficulties in this society and haven't had a chance to properly enjoy it's wonderful attributes, or perhaps you miss home and are finding all the things different which you miss from home. Honestly I have no idea, I'd rather not stipulate because I'm not even sure if it's you or your husband that's the Japanese one lol, I assume him, yeah?

I`m not talking about the "dark side" - I`m talking about the world behind the curtain, not the alley behind the theatre.
Anyone can walk around and see the alley, but there is a level of intimacy and familiarity required to actually go backstage.

I`m not talking about negative things, about racism, etc. Those are the dark side of things and not all that hard to peek around and see. But there is another different world when intimacy is involved.
I don`t believe you`ve made it there yet, but when/if you do you`ll know what I am talking about. I have no doubts MMM does, and there are countless mentions of it on the net.

I am heading out to eat so can`t continue at the moment, but there really are huge differences in what people will talk about, and their levels of honesty depending on intimacy and where you`re judged to be when it comes to that wall.

You might want to read my other posts. :D I got a nice laugh from this one.

I just had to remind that you are talking mixed as "mixed with Western" when that is minority, for sure.

But then we get to that reverse racism again. "White and Japanese mixed kids are beautiful." "Black kids are good at sports." "Asian kids excel at math."

How many times have I heard "Even though she's half, it's a shame she isn't that cute." More than once, I assure you.

That's right, and I've heard that kind of thing often too. Though I wonder if it would be so much to cause a family member from having opposing a wedding with a foreigner. Maybe, if it's not too personal, Nyororin can expand a bit on what the grounds were for the complaints towards her husband when he was her fiance. That might shed more light on what it is that Japanese people oppose to in an international (with a westerner) marriage.

I'll check out your other posts for sure, I'm curious about your experiences now.
I'm still not convinced that I haven't experienced this "backstage" though.
I admit it's not what I thought you were talking about the first time, but I think I actually experienced some of it before I cane to Japan with one of my close friends and his family during high school (his parents were 1st generation Japanese-Canadians with very little English ability).

Anyways, I could tell a few stories to portray how I've delved behind the cloak of lies and illusions weaved by the average Japanese person, but I hope my word is enough to convey I'm well aware of it. Those stories are not the kind of thing I like remembering.

At times that performance is nice though, I rely on it to get by without having to give a crap what some random person thinks of me, the formality, and even the dishonest "honest" opinion help me identify what someone really is like. It takes a bit of cunning, or an unfortunate situation, to really break down what someones opinion is of you.

But regardless of that, I still honestly think there are tonnes of Japanese people who from the bottom of their heart have nothing but support and respect for those among their peers who are in an intercultural relationship.
And I do mean aside from those who themselves are willing to try it out. Or outside that subculture you mentioned.

Honestly I don't know how big that subculture really is, the one that likes western foreigners, and how much those outside of it really dislike western foreigners secretly.
It seems to me that the ladder isn't all that big, nor is it that passionate about it's animosity.

It might not be what you think. It can be a lot of things. "A foreigner is eventually going to want to move home." "Life is better in America, so they are going to uproot and take the grandchildren with them." "My grandchildren won't be able to speak Japanese." "Foreigners run home when the going gets rough." "Our grandchildren are going to get hazed in school." "How am I going to communicate with his parents?" "My friends will feel sorry for me for having foreign in-laws." "Am I going to have to fly to a foreign country for the wedding?"

It isn't always negatives, but just questions marks that are concretes in a Japanese-Japanese relationship.

You bring up some things I hadn't considered before, it's true there are a lot of unknowns. Would asking these questions constitute opposing the idea? I imagine that someone would have to assume negative answers to their own questions, and enough of them, to actually raise it as a problem towards their friend or family member.
I imagine a lot of those questions really should be answered in person with the parents and family, some of them are very valid questions which would really be a good reason to oppose the marriage depending on how they are answered...

Absolutely. Most mothers and fathers have an image of what their child's wedding will be like. If he or she starts talking about marrying a foreigner, all of a sudden all these concretes turn into sand. How to interact with the families, who pays for what, where the wedding will take place, and about 1000 other textbook givens go up in smoke. Americans, at least, tend to do their own thing, but even in the US a wedding is a family affair. This is at least as true in Japan. In Japan marrying for love is a relatively new concept, so why would you put yourself in a situation where you are going to have difficulties from the beginning? It's like betting on the 25/1 horse rather than the 3/1 horse. In many ways it is a business contract, though us romantic Westerners don't like to think of it that way.

Interracial relationships, I really hate the term, more on point would be International relationships. We are not races, WE ARE A RACE...

Zoophilia is interracial, not human-human ones. Its a shame we adopted the term and use it on daily basis, a term invented exactly by racism criteria.

I think you've brought up an entirely different aspect of this intercultural relationships argument than we've been discussing, which is a good thing because it's a lot more tangible and real.
Although this is true in any culture, I'd like to know more about how this aspect of the relationships play out in Japan.
You already mentioned the marrying for love part, that's one thing which separates Japan from many parts of the word, what else is there?

We've been over this, on page #1 I said:

Then inuzuki replied:

Maybe it's a good idea to change the title of the thread to intercultural? or international? (if that doesn't sound too much like the political relationships between countries lol)

From page 1 I was expecting the title change... but still, nothing happened, so I made a reminder post :vsign: .

Intercultural sounds 100% better.

Yeah I agree, by the way if you have beef against people saying different "races" you should youtube battlestar galactica and race, there's a video of the actor going on a rant about it, it's interesting and funny/awkward lol

Hey, I just want to say that I am really enjoying this tread. I haven't replied because it was night time in America. haha

But yeah, you guys are coming up with some very valid points on this topic of intercultural marriages (which sounds a lot better by the way. Sorry for not thinking of it earlier)

The point about the mixed children being bullied in school. Bullying and hazing is something that has been going on in Japanese for years and years. It has been labeled one of the highest causes of suicide which is one of the leading causes of death in Japan. Although it could be the attention that mixed children attract, any child (too smart, to small, too large, too quiet, not pretty enough, too pretty, etc..) are subject to this kind of treatment by the kids in Japan. I know full well the dark side of Japanese children when helping out in the local school. They will just smack each other for no reason and the kid that got hit will laugh it off just because the other kids are laughing, not wanting to draw anymore attention to himself than has already been drawn.

I one of my good friends is a half black, half Japanese girl and she is bubbly and outgoing. I asked how it was growing up and she said that although people would look at her longer than most other students or ask her if she knew English (at the time she didn't), she had a happy childhood and wasn't ill-treated in her schools or by her friends. I also met a half white, half Japanese girl but I didn't get to talk to her much about her life (she didn't no English at all) but she also seems happy and out going. But with her, her friends pointed out the fact that she was half American, almost proudly, as if they were trying to connect me and her somehow or find that link in our cultures.

I'm sorry, Nyororin, but I don't think that RealJames friend are superficial... You would actually have to know them or talk to them in order to say something like. I have friends that are a lot like his friends, pictures, questions, and things like that. I just think of it as them being curious and I’m happy to educate them on what’s real and not just the stereotype given to me. I look at the reason why I came to Japan in the first place; to be in the culture and surround myself with Japanese people. I might have asked them as many questions as they asked me and taken more pictures haha (It was my first time out of the states) When I came back to the states, I wanted to surround myself with Japanese people and stay in that culture, using the language, etc... I think using the word "superficial" is a bit harsh. It's as if saying that the whole friendship and relationship is a lie. I genuinely love my friends and believe that they love me; it’s a bonus that he get to explore and learn about each other’s cultures. You choose who you want to be around because you find a likeness between that person and yourself. Isn’t that why you stayed and married in Japan and lived there for 10 years? (I could be wrong and if so I’m sorry for my assumption)

I believe you and your husband truly love each other, even though one of you is foreign. If your relationship didn't start with superficial thinking, why couldn't that be the same for others? Just because his narrow-minded friends didn't agree? I don't think that's enough of a reason to say that there can't be real genuine friendships and relationships because foreigners and Japanese. You go some places in America and you can hear the most hurtful things, from all colors and creeds. (I couldn’t date a guy on two different occasions because their families didn’t want them dating a black girl. They hadn’t even met me and didn’t want to). Is it safe to say that all Americans are the same way or have the same way of thinking…. I don’t think so….

I know full well that you have WAY more experience with this than I have and I value your opinion on this topic, but there has to be a light side to this dark side of Japan, or you wouldn't have stayed there so long right? Just like in the states, there are VERY BAD things about the states and living here. But then, there are things about the states and living here that make you miss it when you're gone. I love the states in spite of the bad things. Same in Japan, don’t you think?

MMM, you do have I good point about the concerns about marriage arrangements and there after. I have to admit, I didn't really think about it too much myself. But hopefully those things are discussed even before the couple decides to take that leap. The situation is truly determined by the individual couple.

Love, love, love, this tread... A true success... :mtongue:

I don't think I need to change the title of this thread, as it addresses on of the questions RealJames asked me, what are other aspects or perspectives that are different when regarding marriage. One of these is the definition of race.

Like it or not, Japanese see themselves as a different race from every other ethnicity in the world. Being Japanese is more than a nationality.

Family records are kept by the government which go back generations. The purity (or "impurity") of one's bloodline is on file. So when one decides to marry a non-Japanese that decision is not simply that of a man and a woman, but is now a part of the family's history forever. It is a "family decision" in more ways than one.

I remember in high school some American friends being bothered that the Japanese kids referred to them as "gaijin". They mistakenly understood the word to mean "foreigner". "In America YOU are the gaijin!" the American kids would respond. What they didn't understand is that "gaijin" doesn't mean foreigner. "Gaijin" means "non-Japanese".

Iv encountered this a few times over the years as well. It happened in high and college with exchange students, and the little knowledge that American's knew about Japanese meant they also thought that "gaijin" meant foreigner. Unfortunately, it took another American to explain the real meaning of the word as they thought the Japanese students were lying to them.

Being called gaijin is not a "naughty" word as some seem to get really touchy over it.

This is a whole different topic, but I agree with you, Sinestra. Because Japanese see themselves differently than the rest of the world, and that is in a neutral way, it only makes sense they would have language that makes that distinction.

To some, simply making that distinction is enough for it to be considered rude or offensive.

Another point on race and culture, I know a married couple that lives near me that is a Japanese-American man (3rd generation, I believe) and a Japanese native woman. While their daughter might be considered multi-cultural, or at least bilingual (the dad speaks almost no Japanese) she wouldn't be considered multi-racial in Japan. The fact that her bloodline is traceable and is pure Japanese means, as I understand, she is considered Japanese. She also has a Japanese passport, as well as an American one.

My point is that blood trumps nationality when it comes to "being Japanese".

This is how it was explained to me as well. Its about the blood not the nationality. As long the bloodline can be traced back to multiple generations that person is considered Japanese.

but yeah a little off-topic. I would love to discuss it more in another thread but im afraid it might turn into something sinister which is why i havent made one.