did the u.s.have to drop the bomb?

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Seanus

Why do you do this, Sinestra? Look at his views as a forum poster and don't bring other Canadians into it. You paint people as national spokesmen and that's wrong. OK, there may be a 'Canadian' position, or 'American' position but these are governmental generally.

Back to the topic, are you callous enough not to apologise, as an American, for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of innocent life? That's your line of thought. For me, you don't come from that generation and had nothing to do with it. So, as a person and out of humanitarian concerns, can you condemn the then American govt for what they did?

Know the whole story Seanus before you speak. He and i have had problems and misunderstandings in the past and when we do we settle them on PM. I cut him more slack than most because of his past experiences which you dont know anything about. He made a comment several months ago in another thread that most Canadians feel the way he does. I was curious so i asked and it turns out that is not true at least not among native Canadians he gave me that impression because of the negative rhetoric that he gave. komitsuki is a very intelligent person and there are some world issues that we are never going to agree on mainly because of the age gap i believe.

My issue instead of looking forward trying to make things better we are constantly stuck in the past pointing fingers. Tell me Seanus do you criticize the past actions of your home country? I am very critical of the US and do to my unique up bringing i tend to be a little than most but in a reasonable way. Once again i get a lot of hate out of your post man if you hate thats fine if you dont then im sorry for misunderstanding its hard to gauge someones worth and tone over the net but i am not going to try to change your mind.

Im not going to apologize for the US dropping the bombs I WAS NOT THERE I WAS NOT BORN I DID NOT FIGHT IN IT, the way war was fought then is different than its fought now. Nor would i want a Japanese citizen to apologize to me for Pearl Harbor for the same reason. Thats like me going around and telling every single white person to apologize to me because im black and there is a possibility that your ancestors were slave owners. I am sadden by the loss of life on both sides not just the lives lost in the bombing but in the war in general. War is messy its not meant to be fun in games war is disgusting so we humans would not grow to found of it. The core problem of war on this planet is not nations its humanity. If i follow your way of thinking every nation who has every bombed, fired an arrow or launched a surprised attack should apologize. This will never solve the problems this planet collectively suffers from.

I will not be one sided i will not pretend America is and has been saint but i refuse to sit and watch as people cant even turn their pointing fingers in ward. Iv said this before if you and or anyone else thinks they have the answers to fix whats wrong not in America not in Japan and not in Iran but with the world then get your ass in office and do something about it. No one here has ever had to make a difficult decision that decided the lives and fate of millions. So dont pretend that the leaders of old made a bad decision because you can criticize it. Im sorry Seanus that im not up for you US bashing party but i would rather focus on how to fix current problems then to dwell over something that has happened and cant be changed neither of us were born yet so in return i would not hold a Japanese person born after WWII responsible for Pearl Harbor it ludicrous.

While your at it ask the British to apologize for the multitude of cultures they destroyed and lands they raped during their colonel expansion, including my peoples nation of birth Africa. See how not fair that is?

I take solace in the fact that the bombs were shown to be very deadly and to this day another one has not been dropped.

[Seanus]

First point, thanks for the info on your history with him. I wasn't aware of that, it just seemed that you were having a pop at Canadians but I see now.

I agree also that we shouldn't focus on the past too much. Poles do this WAAAAAY too much, it was evident under Kaczyński when he was PM. Russia this, Germany that. It took 12 years for France and Germany to sign the EEC (1957, after WWII) after the ECSC of 1953. We have to move forward, that's true. I just wanted you to say that it was a tragic loss of life.

I will criticise the actions of my home country if they are unjust, yes. Justice is what I believe in. I can't hate easily, it's just not my way. Many Americans have criticised their country, damn patriotic ones too. Look at 9/11 truth, Scott Ritter and Jessie Ventura to mention but a few. It's not a country specific thing, sir, it's more about not letting certain megalomaniacs get off with murder, irrespective of nationality.

I agree that you shouldn't apologise, I was hinting at that above. You didn't commission the deadly act. Apologies help though. I dislike when Germans get a bad rap now, they are a separate generation.

As for British colonialism and imperialism, criticise away. The more, the better in my eyes. I reject regime change, invasion and occupation as they are seldom necessary. The Brits were animals and pillagers, worthy of contempt. I'm watching a documentary on Bloody Sunday and how cowardly that was. I want justice there too. Please understand that the Scots and the English are NOT one and the same.

Try and change my mind as that's part of life. Keep the discussion flowing, bro, there's a broad scope for it here.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Japan turning anti-American?

Why not? Nobody expected South Korea to become very anti-American after the Cold War.

but you're dreaming if you think Japan will become anti-American in the near future anyway.

Now that the LDP is collapsing, there is indeed a greater possibility for Japan to become anti-American. Hell, some of my Japanese buddies are already anti-American. LDP is very infamous for doing shady deals with the American government for over 50 years. When things are exposed, there is a great possibility that Japan will turn anti-American.

China will always be a security threat to Japan and Japanese interests in the region so long as China remains a one-party authoritarian state.

And China should stay that way because I don't want China to become just like South Korea: dysfunction-ally democratic, semi-borderline autocratic for over 50 years.

The same goes for South Korea. The only thing stopping North Korea from launching an attack on the South is the threat of overwhelming US retaliation.

Most of the crisis in 2009 is based around the Kaesong Industrial Park, a North Korean factory complex that is partly owned by South Korea. America is out of the card.

Just like the American Donald Rumsfeld illegally sent several nuclear devices to North Korea?

As long as authoritarian regimes threaten the prosperity and livelihood of Asia

You're right though, actually. Confucian countries have the worst form of democracy. Technically, South Korea and Japan are as authoritarian as China. Democracy in Asia works only if the dominant party leads its way to self-collapse. (ex. LDP in Japan)

I welcome South Korea and Japan being very honest to themselves, instead of spewing rhetorics like "DEMOCRACY!". Securing themselves being very honest is a very Confucian approach.

[Seanus]

Japan, while embracing some aspects of Confucianism, is largely Shintoist and part Buddhist. I don't think religion can be used as an excuse for some actions committed.

Rummy extending his foreign experience then? He did it in Baghdad too. He is a cretin of a man.

America doesn't really interfere with vital Japanese interests so I don't foresee any real animosity to speak of.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

komitsuki is a very intelligent person and there are some world issues that we are never going to agree on mainly because of the age gap i believe.

It's not the age gap. It's our different experiences in life. I'm not that too young, you know.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Seanus

Japan, while embracing some aspects of Confucianism, is largely Shintoist and part Buddhist. I don't think religion can be used as an excuse for some actions committed.

Confucianism is a socio-political philosophy. Not a religion that people in the West misunderstand often.

[Seanus]

The only problem with forcing Japan to surrender is that surrender itself is instantaneous. The order to wave the white flag is given and has instant effect. However, lethal radiation lingers for years and affects future generations.

Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Many see Confucianism as a religion.

[Ryzorian]

Komitsuki; Don't get me wrong here, I'm not afraid of China, it's just one of several nations in the area that are involved in geopoltical theatrics. The primary point is that nations look to thier own interests first, and treaties are based on trying to protect those interests as best they can. Often this makes not only strange bedfellows but completely insane scenarios, that make little sense if taken at face value.

I'm perfectly fine with Japan being more assertive with the US, it would make our alliance stronger not weaker. I would personally prefer an active particapateing partner over a subserviant lacky anyday.

As to the bombing, that's how America fights. Just look what we did to ourselves during the Civil War. Bombed civilians, destroyed whole swaths of land, burned entire cities. Wether it's a cultural byproduct brought over from Europe or developed as a cultural aspect of the wild frontier, who knows?

You also have to understand the propaganda both sides had of the other at that time. By 1943 both sides hated and feared the other, neither side saw the other as even human. Mix a ruthless fighting style with a fearmongering leadership, one suggesting to it's people that the "enemy" was nothing more than wild beasts, and you get that.

Perhaps one way to prevent such things is to ensure such propaganda isn't spread to begin with.

[Seanus]

Super commentary above, Ryzorian. It's naturally the bigger powers that engage in such geopolitical antics/theatrics. I liked the point about treaties too. They are often just ways to buy time. Look at the treaties signed from 1930 to 1936 for example. Ignored and used to give the impression that all was well and no malice was forthcoming. The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact was an international relations act that pulled the wool over many eyes.

It is how America fought then, that's more to the point. Still, many Chinamen are versed in The Art of War by Sun Tzu and its axiomatic content. As Fulford said also, let's not forget that the Chinese could take out US subs with relative ease. I think he is not entirely accurate but they have the means.

The propaganda part was also right on the money. The Japanese saw the Americans as drunks and layabouts. The embargo was a slap in the face to Japan but by no means a declaration of all-out war. Unfortunately, propaganda is here to stay, it's how the press make their astronomical cuts and win the hearts and minds of the public. For that, look no further than the victimisation through inaccurate propaganda against the Serbs. Lies left, right and centre.

As for Japan being more assertive, I applaud that too. Many are too submissive there but they should take their rightful place as a major player and keep their voice heard. Splendid isolation (as an island culture) isn't realistic in modern times, even Britain ditched that policy in 1902.

Komitsuki, Confucianism may be seen as a diffused religion but according to Western conceptions. It certainly has religious aspects and it's better to put it that way. Besides, people defend actions on religious grounds without going to the core elements of religion itself. The dichotomy can be notable, depending on how esoteric you wanna get. It doesn't have an institutional entity like the church, to my knowledge. Religion must involve a big change of state of some description. My limited knowledge of Confucianism tells me that sagedom and the pursuit of that enlightened 'wise' state is characteristic of what a religion is about. However, it does permeate through more as a tool and approach of the state, diminishing the case for it being a religion in our common conception.

Secularism would be yet another point worthy of discussion here.

[fluffy0000]

Except the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had nothing to do with the United States dude.