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03-23-2010, 12:30 AM

Manifesto ahead:

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Originally Posted by MMM View Post
How? Do you mean having everyone be insured? This is a good thing.
Does this bill cover 100% of all Americans? Nope.
In your case of struggling, please tell me where this new bill is going to help you:
The Associated Press: Health overhaul: Immediate change, long term steps

Your complaint is the your premiums are too high and that there stuff not coverered in your policy costs extra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
Really, explain how you are losing control by the government reigning in the completely out of control insurance industry. If anything it gives us, US citizens MORE control of our heath care options.
Dark's point seemed more to the issue of just allowing a slip of the constitution here and pass there... Once the flood gates are open...Why stop with mandating you buy government approved health insurance policies?

How is the private insurance industry out of control? Its health care cost that is out of control. In most states insurance companies are regulated to the point where you have no true options to health insurance; mainly because they can't cross state lines. Again 95% of the insured today are happy with their insurance. Much less for those denied by medicare and Medicaid.

There are some pluses to this reform no doubt, but are quickly canceled out by the minuses. Plus look at the changing every hour deficit price tag.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
Would you rather have elected officials doing this or for-profit corporations who have your health at the bottom of their priority lists?
Elected officials really don't give a damn about what the voters think, which is demonstrated exactly by the passing of this bill. Eventually a insurance company that just denies everyone or has premiums no one can afford will eventually fail. The government just does what they do, they get paid anyway. See post office example. See % of denials by medicare and Medicaid versus private insurance companies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
We do things the government forces us to do everyday. From moving our clocks an hour forward in spring to getting a government issued license to drive a car, living in a society means living by rules, and in our case these rules are determined by elected officials in the government. We need insurance to drive a car (at least in my state) and just as people want other drivers to have car insurance, as people we want everyone to have health insurance. This will save lives (as people will be able to go to the doctor earlier if they are sick) and save money (we pay for people that default on medical bills). But everyone SHOULD be insured. That's how it is in every other first world country on the planet. If everyone is covered that makes it less expensive for everyone. Just as you want your neighbor to have home owners insurance and the driver next to you to have car insurance, you want everyone to have health insurance.
Here we go again..
The fact you can choose not to purchase and drive a car.
I can also choose not to receive medical care. Being forced to purchase a good or service just for existing is unconstitutional. As you will see soon, states will take this to the courts as being unconstitutional.

You can't force anyone to buy a privately owned good or service in America.
You don't have to in any other country?

Having everyone insured doesn't fix the problem of rising health care costs, which this bill doesn't fix. They have only postponed the problem while causing another.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post

Wrong here. Primary health insurance run by private corporations exists in only one first world country: The US.
But what about private insurance companies such as Aflac in Japan are doing quite well too. You would be surprised on what is covered and what is not under the Japan's National health insurance for things such illnesses as Cancer and the like in comparison to the average US private policy

First hand knowledge: Canada's health system for the most part is a mess due to the government health care system. Do you like lotteries? It only eeks by due to the proximity of the US.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post

The idea of choosing not to have health insurance is completely foreign anywhere else in the civilized world. Knowing the cost of health care, why would anyone CHOOSE not to have insurance? That's like choosing to cut off a hand. Yes, you have that option, but why handicap yourself?
And having used health care in both Japan and the US I can assure you that elected officials are more interested in you being alive to vote for them again than for profit companies are interested in paying for your health bills. There are people in these companies that GET BONUSES for tossing people OUT of their programs for having expensive medical problems. Imagine if that were happening in a government program. Heads would roll.I have received wonderful care in both countries, but in Japan there is no denial of service. There is no bankruptcy from expensive medical bills. There are no expensive prescriptions and insurance middle-men telling the doctor what tests he can or can't give me.
So you are saying elected officials in Japan are elected on how satisfied people are with their health care experience? Do you really think medical care quality is going to improve with the government involved? Nope... it isn't

There is no denial of service in the US either, but again we are comparing apples to oranges. Population size, amount of medical facilities available, amount of doctors available, people abusing the system (ER crashers for a cold), illegals who use it but can't pay. In Japan you will pay, unless you are dying and need immediate assistance. The difference is the US has sky rocketing costs of health care due to abuse of the system, not health insurance.

With this being said, Japan's health system is a wonderful thing, Canada's isn't. Both on a similar system, but it all comes down to the dynamics of the country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
You are describing what I have right now. I pay hundreds of dollars a month to have people tell me that since a condition isn't life threatening it is not covered. In this case it is a private company that has that level of control. This wouldn't happen with single payer, but that doesn't matter.
See my link and tell me what this bill helps you with.

So are your issue is that the coverage is not enough or the price is insurance for coverage? The problem is the cost of health care. There are areas of the Japanese national health insurance that this happens.

Most (not all) insurance companies in the US are putting their profits to continue operating. Due to lack of Tort reform, there will never be any way to weed out the insurance companies who do drop coverage when someone does get sick. Because of this lack of, private insurance companies will eventually crumble, crippling the health care system completely. Why is this?

The true question is why doesn't this health care bill address true problem of health care in America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
What does "complete control" mean? You are sounding like a wild-eyed tea bagger claiming the sky is falling. In no way do I feel like the government has complete control over my life...nothing close to that. Yesterday's vote doesn't change that.

Please MMM, try to have some class. It is Tea Party. This is why bipartisanship didn't work with this administration. Elitist-ism. This is what is driving a wedge right down the middle of the country.

There is a reason that more than half of Americans disapproved of government taking this role and why it took this long to "near" forcing this bill through with a majority of democratic in the house and senate and a democratic president. The standard elitist democrat mentality is "you people are too stupid, we need to drag you to it". Lets pass it without a vote. ooops can't do that...



Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
The government doesn't pay for people's insurance (unless, of course, they are government workers.
the point is where does it stop? Today its the amount of income we tax, the next year, its this amount or this group, or this situation. The point is the flood gates are open to crush the free market, in this case 1/6th of the economy. Would you just like there to be no private health insurance companies and let the government mandate what health costs will be?


Today we mandate this, tomorrow we mandate that.. Proposed: Salt is bad for you, lets ban it. Some States: Alcohol is a special item, lets let not any private retail business sell it. Instead lets setup state run liquor stores. Proposed: You need "Life Insurance" thus we mandate life insurance policies.
Passed: Banks no longer are in the loan business of student loans. Lets crush those fat cat bankers. WHat?

What percent of your income do you pay in state, federal, sales, property, etc taxes now? What % does the average citizen? Too much. Now the government can mandate you buy a product and service - and we will tell you exactly what minimal policy you will buy. You will help your fellow citizen and you will spread the wealth around.

You already do that? Nope, the government knows better, look at how tight of a budget it runs and how well medicare and social security have turned out.

When will you be considered "rich"? When you will you be taxed enough?
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what are you smoking dude? - 03-23-2010, 02:08 AM

So many mistakes and disinformation it's hard to get a handle on the above post.
First off the - Insurance Industry in the United States unless you have been on a different planet these last 18 months have had decades long ride - deregulated and free to operate by both local and state governments 'free reign' to cross state lines and even borders of other countries. The largest Insurance Company on the face of planet -'AIG' went belly up during the last sub-prime housing bubble ( 2007-2009' ) underwriting 'derivatives' and other financial instruments to date the largest insurance company on the planet has recieved over $170 Billion USD to date in is now owned by the US taxpayer. So much for over regulated insurance industry.

WSJ 2008'
U.S. to Take Over AIG in $85 Billion Bailout; Central Banks Inject Cash as Credit Dries Up
Emergency Loan Effectively Gives Government Control of Insurer; Historic Move Would Cap 10 Days That Reshaped U.S. Finance

By MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG, DEBORAH SOLOMON, LIAM PLEVEN and JON E. HILSENRATH
The U.S. government seized control of American International Group Inc. -- one of the world's biggest insurers --
U.S. government will effectively get a 79.9% equity stake in the insurer in the form of warrants called equity participation notes
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clintjm (Offline)
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03-23-2010, 02:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffy0000 View Post
So many mistakes and disinformation it's hard to get a handle on the above post.
First off the - Insurance Industry in the United States unless you have been on a different planet these last 18 months have had decades long ride - deregulated and free to operate by both local and state governments 'free reign' to cross state lines and even borders of other countries. The largest Insurance Company on the face of planet -'AIG' went belly up during the last sub-prime housing bubble ( 2007-2009' ) underwriting 'derivatives' and other financial instruments to date the largest insurance company on the planet has recieved over $170 Billion USD to date in is now owned by the US taxpayer. So much for over regulated insurance industry.

WSJ 2008'
U.S. to Take Over AIG in $85 Billion Bailout; Central Banks Inject Cash as Credit Dries Up
Emergency Loan Effectively Gives Government Control of Insurer; Historic Move Would Cap 10 Days That Reshaped U.S. Finance

By MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG, DEBORAH SOLOMON, LIAM PLEVEN and JON E. HILSENRATH
The U.S. government seized control of American International Group Inc. -- one of the world's biggest insurers --
U.S. government will effectively get a 79.9% equity stake in the insurer in the form of warrants called equity participation notes
So many mistakes and misinformation? What misinformation? If you are going to write this, at least take the time to show where you disagree.

Well your mistake was Health Insurance being the topic; not insurance in general.
Too much Free Market can be a bad thing too, but not taken to the level of control Marxists want.

Car Insurance, free from state line, is doing quite well.

America wasn't the first economic bubbles and they won't be the last.
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clintjm (Offline)
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I like tea too - 03-23-2010, 02:24 AM

Boston Tea Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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03-23-2010, 02:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by darksyndrem View Post
"I will not punish any woman in America to this kind of system, knowing how great America is. The very innovation of who we are is what got us here, and it wasn't the federal government, and it wasn't washington D.C.. It was individuals who stood up for themselves, and said 'We can do better' and because of that we have the greatest middle class on the face of the earth. And this is one more tick in their ability to succeed in America."


I would also like you to read this short story. I understand that it may seem entirely irrelevant, but I want you to try to relate it to the Health Care Reform as best you can, and tell me what comes to mind.
Thats good stuff. Video and the Bergeron story
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03-23-2010, 03:59 AM

I'll only say this:

It took countries like Japan, South Korea, Canada, other Western European countries few decades to sort out many of the problems with the health systems. Seems that Americans during this "financial crisis" generally believe that their NHS will be functional within a decade.


JapanForum's semi-resident amateur linguist.
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03-23-2010, 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by darksyndrem View Post
"I will not punish any woman in America to this kind of system, knowing how great America is. The very innovation of who we are is what got us here, and it wasn't the federal government, and it wasn't washington D.C.. It was individuals who stood up for themselves, and said 'We can do better' and because of that we have the greatest middle class on the face of the earth. And this is one more tick in their ability to succeed in America."


I would also like you to read this short story. I understand that it may seem entirely irrelevant, but I want you to try to relate it to the Health Care Reform as best you can, and tell me what comes to mind.
Instead of having me read more stories and watch more videos, I wish you were able to say what you want to say about heath insurance reform, Dark.

I have to apologize, but I don't understand the context of the quote you put above. How does that quote make health reform a bad idea?
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MMM (Offline)
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03-23-2010, 06:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post

Does this bill cover 100% of all Americans? Nope.
Is that the problem? Really? It would cover 100% of Americans, but that's exactly what the Republicans have been fighting AGAINST since Day 1. So really, you can't fault the bill for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
In your case of struggling, please tell me where this new bill is going to help you:
The Associated Press: Health overhaul: Immediate change, long term steps

Your complaint is the your premiums are too high and that there stuff not coverered in your policy costs extra.
It's not that it costs extra. It is that it is not covered. Paying out of pocket would mean bankruptcy. This is an issue only Americans deal with in the first world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
Dark's point seemed more to the issue of just allowing a slip of the constitution here and pass there... Once the flood gates are open...Why stop with mandating you buy government approved health insurance policies?
Slippery slope. Sorry, but I have no patience for slippery slope arguments. With that logic we shouldn't have our taxes pay for police or fire departments. Now do you want no police coverage in your neighborhood anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
How is the private insurance industry out of control? Its health care cost that is out of control. In most states insurance companies are regulated to the point where you have no true options to health insurance; mainly because they can't cross state lines. Again 95% of the insured today are happy with their insurance. Much less for those denied by medicare and Medicaid.
Executive Bonuses In Health-Care Companies Deserve Examination | TheLedger.com

amednews: Health plan CEO pay declines in weakened economy :: June 1, 2009 ... American Medical News

Sick for Profit - Insurance CEOs

What is the health insurance industry? (Keep in mind an industry that ONLY exists in this for in the United States.) It is an unnecessary middleman between patients and doctors. The CEOS of these companies come home with MULTI-MILLION dollar paychecks. But how do these companies make so much money? People are paying for health care, and the executives of these companies are some of the RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. This isn't rocket science. Deny service to people that will cost more than they make for the company, and the company makes a profit. This is what they do.

We have proven how private health insurance DOESN'T work in the world.

Sick for Profit - Insurance CEOs

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post

There are some pluses to this reform no doubt, but are quickly canceled out by the minuses. Plus look at the changing every hour deficit price tag.
It has actually been denoted to reduce the deficit. You know this. This is partially why it passed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
Elected officials really don't give a damn about what the voters think, which is demonstrated exactly by the passing of this bill.
I love baseless arguments like this. Thankfully enough of our elected officials actually listened to their constituents instead of special interests and corporate industry lobbyists to pass something that the people actually want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
Eventually a insurance company that just denies everyone or has premiums no one can afford will eventually fail. The government just does what they do, they get paid anyway. See post office example. See % of denials by medicare and Medicaid versus private insurance companies.
Not when they unify to screw everyone at the same rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
Here we go again..
The fact you can choose not to purchase and drive a car.
I can also choose not to receive medical care. Being forced to purchase a good or service just for existing is unconstitutional. As you will see soon, states will take this to the courts as being unconstitutional.
Yes, you can choose not to be a car driver. However, you cannot choose to not have medical care. You cannot choose to not have the fire in your apartment put out when you have a fire.

"I can choose not to have medical care" so what, you got shot and you are going to choose to bleed out and die rather than go to the hospital? That is a choice that legally we don't have in most states.

But if this is the stance you believe in, please fight to eliminate 911, police, fire, ambulance and other services in your area.

Personally I like living in an area where my taxes go to pay for fire trucks to put out my neighbor's fire and police to patrol my streets. Why is health care any different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
You can't force anyone to buy a privately owned good or service in America.
You don't have to in any other country?

Having everyone insured doesn't fix the problem of rising health care costs, which this bill doesn't fix. They have only postponed the problem while causing another.
Like police and fire, the best thing is to have everyone covered. If they aren't it gets more expensive for everyone. That's simple economics. The problems of rising health care cost have nothing to do with the government, and have to do with the litigious culture of America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
But what about private insurance companies such as Aflac in Japan are doing quite well too. You would be surprised on what is covered and what is not under the Japan's National health insurance for things such illnesses as Cancer and the like in comparison to the average US private policy
America is the only country where PRIMARY health insurance is something that has to be payed for by the individual. Those that choose to pay for Aflac or SECONDARY health insurance are those that want a single room, instead of sharing a room. It is like insurance for First Class instead of Economy. For those that want to pay for it, fine. However if you don't want it or can't afford it, it is not required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
First hand knowledge: Canada's health system for the most part is a mess due to the government health care system. Do you like lotteries? It only eeks by due to the proximity of the US.
A lottery would be better than "flat out no".

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
So you are saying elected officials in Japan are elected on how satisfied people are with their health care experience? Do you really think medical care quality is going to improve with the government involved? Nope... it isn't
Satisfaction with health coverage in Japan is such a standard that officials really don't worry about it. Japanese people are not demanding health care reform. Americans are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
There is no denial of service in the US either, but again we are comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, there is denial of service by American health insurance companies. If I cannot afford to pay for the service out of pocket that means I either 1) don't do it or 2) go bankrupt. As I said earlier 2/3 of personal bankruptcies in the US are due to medical bills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
Population size, amount of medical facilities available, amount of doctors available, people abusing the system (ER crashers for a cold), illegals who use it but can't pay. In Japan you will pay, unless you are dying and need immediate assistance. The difference is the US has sky rocketing costs of health care due to abuse of the system, not health insurance.
ER Crashers for a cold. Your words. In Japan this word doesn't make sense. There is nothing too small to go to the hospital for. Imagine a world where you go to the hospital for the sniffles, and get service and medicine for a few dollars after national insurance. These systems exist and thrive. There is some benefit to keeping a population healthy.

I have to run, but will try and address the other topics a little later.
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03-23-2010, 06:50 AM

Quote:
But what about private insurance companies such as Aflac in Japan are doing quite well too. You would be surprised on what is covered and what is not under the Japan's National health insurance for things such illnesses as Cancer and the like in comparison to the average US private policy
I prefer to stay out of any of these debates when the subject is something I can`t really say I am a part of (have lived outside the US so long that I can`t say I know what is really going on there...) but I have to comment on this one.

We have two close family friends with cancer. One caught early, and one a couple steps from palliative care.

Japan has never been a 100% coverage system. It has always been percentage based. The base prices for care are relatively low (particularly medication) but even if your care is mostly covered and you only pay so many percent... This adds up. Cancer is long term. Care IS covered, but multiple medications and paying a percentage of countless expensive treatments adds up. This is where additional services come in. It`s not a matter of "not being covered". It`s a matter of covering those last percent and offering specialty services. Aflac is big when it comes to life insurance and life support service (additional medical unemployment payments, etc) - both things that aren`t and should not be covered by health insurance. They also offer things like house keeping and childcare services as part of their insurance plans.
Rather than medical insurance, it tends to be comfort insurance. If you`re diagnosed with cancer, you get a huge flat payment. If you have an operation, you get a flat payment. If you are told you only have so many months left, they give you huge monthly payments until the end...
While you CAN use the money for medical care, you could also use it to go out and party. There is no connection between the payout and the cost of your care.

I don`t know anyone who is suffering with medical bills, etc, in Japan. My son has received care that would have cost millions out of pocket in the US... With very very little direct cost to us.
On the other hand, I don`t know anyone in my own family who has decent health insurance in the US.... And have a number of horror stories I could tell. "Having" insurance in the US seems to be quite a bit different than actually being able to "use" that insurance.
I also know of a number of people who had to seriously change their lifestyles to afford medical care for their children with similar issues as my own son - selling houses, getting a second job, etc.


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03-23-2010, 07:57 AM

The problem we have in America is that we have a gigantic private health care insurance industry.

I think Americans reading this need to take this into serious consideration.

We have a gigantic private heath care industry.

This industry does not exist in any other industrial country in the world.

Not in Japan, England, France, Canada, Germany...the list goes on.

Only in the US.

Legislation destroying this unneeded industry is obviously unpopular for those that work in it...so what do they do? They make their industry as indestructible as possible by appealing to US elected officials.

The Supreme Court of the US has recently ruled that Corporate Money = Free Speech, so we cannot expect an end to this ridiculous situation.

But thankfully we are moving in the right direction. Perfect? No. Better? Yes.
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