Hostile Hostels Article in Japan Times

[cranks]

Tsuwabuki ,
ちょっとよっぱらっちゃったから、得意な日本語で話す ね。

いやあ、日本の風呂のルールって色々あるけど、結局あ なたも、
「じゃあリ何がいけないのかリストにして？」と言われ たら、
ハッキリは言えてないわけじゃん？なのに、日本人の田 舎の
人に細かく英語で論理的に西洋の人に通じるような論理 で
ハッキリ言うのを求めるのは、テキサスのロデオライダ ーに
アメリカの憲法の精神をアラビア語で説明させるような ものだよ。

靴に関するタブーだって、家に上がらないのと、玄関で 靴をそろえるの
位じゃないですか？靴で問題になるって、よっぽどの事 で、そんな
基本的な事が問題になるなら、悪いけど、日本の文化が 本当にわかってるか
疑問ですよ。神様の悪口いっちゃいけないくらいの、基 本的な事じゃ
ないかなあ？

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

Tsuwabuki ,
ちょっとよっぱらっちゃったから、得意な日本語で話す ね。

いやあ、日本の風呂のルールって色々あるけど、結局あ なたも、
「じゃあリ何がいけないのかリストにして？」と言われ たら、
ハッキリは言えてないわけじゃん？なのに、日本人の田 舎の
人に細かく英語で論理的に西洋の人に通じるような論理 で
ハッキリ言うのを求めるのは、テキサスのロデオライダ ーに
アメリカの憲法の精神をアラビア語で説明させるような ものだよ。

I might have misunderstood you so I will answer in English.

Maybe not an exact translation but as I understand it, you are saying that a Japanese person who lives in the countryside being made to explain in English the rules of an Ofuro is like asking a stereotypical texan to explain the heart of the US constitution in Arabic right?

Im sorry but I think your comparison is an exaggeration and that a list of what you are and arent allowed to do is not so complicated. Not to mention the fact that the bath owner doesnt even need to write the sign. They can just get someone else to do it for them.

[cranks]

Ronin4hire ,
Sure, I'm exaggerating, but not as bad as Debito is. And you haven't gave me the examples of the do's and do not's list in Japanese yet. Yeah, it's easy to say it's easy when you don't do it yourself, things changes the moment the responsibility is on your shoulders.

[manganimefan227]

Is AAVE the equivilent to slang? I grew up near Baltimore and heard the latter term much more often. O_o

Maybe this is a possibility: Japan isn't America (OK, we all know that THAT'S true) they don't have the same feelings toward imigrants or the same kinda paitence or tolerance for cultural differences that Americans are educated in from day 1. Having people not follow culture rules is new to them, (or newer then it is for us). Let's just hope they handle this in a reaonable way.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by cranks

Tsuwabuki ,
ちょっとよっぱらっちゃったから、得意な日本語で話す ね

ええ、でも私の日本語はちょっと悪いです。漢字はとて も難し、から時々たくさん言葉を読むことができません 。そして、時々私のにほんごはへんです。しかし、がん ばっています。

いやあ、日本の風呂のルールって色々あるけど、結局あ なたも、
「じゃあリ何がいけないのかリストにして？」と言われ たら、
ハッキリは言えてないわけじゃん？なのに、日本人の田 舎の
人に細かく英語で論理的に西洋の人に通じるような論理 で
ハッキリ言うのを求めるのは、テキサスのロデオライダ ーに
アメリカの憲法の精神をアラビア語で説明させるような ものだよ。

えとう... そのことは揃わないです。アメリカの憲法は日本の風呂 のル−ルよりふくざつです。日本人の田舎の人はベイシ ックの日本の風呂のル−ルを書くことができることを思 います。

全部のテキサス人はカウボイでわありませんよ。これは ちょっと面憎いですね。私はテキサス人、でもカウボイ じゃない。

アメリカの憲法をアラビ語ではここです：The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States (The Bilingual Pocket Constitution in English and Arabic) (Paperback)

靴に関するタブーだって、家に上がらないのと、玄関で 靴をそろえるの
位じゃないですか？靴で問題になるって、よっぽどの事 で、そんな
基本的な事が問題になるなら、悪いけど、日本の文化が 本当にわかってるか
疑問ですよ。神様の悪口いっちゃいけないくらいの、基 本的な事じゃ
ないかなあ？

I'm going to have to come back to your second paragraph tomorrow. I thought I'd have enough time to look up all the kanji I don't know and respond, but I have a get together tonight starting in a few hours I have to get the apartment ready for. I'm afraid my 読み書き is quite slow, even if I am capable of it. But I do promise to come back and edit the post tomorrow.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by manganimefan227

Is AAVE the equivilent to slang? I grew up near Baltimore and heard the latter term much more often. O_o

No. AAVE is a distinct language with its own grammar and syntax. The vocabulary is made up of mostly identifiable English words, but with a significant minority of words from other colonial languages and West African languages.

Teaching Standard American English to children who speak AAVE is in many ways similar to teaching Standard American English as a second language to any non-English speaker.

Maybe this is a possibility: Japan isn't America (OK, we all know that THAT'S true) they don't have the same feelings toward imigrants or the same kinda paitence or tolerance for cultural differences that Americans are educated in from day 1. Having people not follow culture rules is new to them, (or newer then it is for us). Let's just hope they handle this in a reaonable way.

There have been non-Japanese in Japan since the 1600s, for good or for ill. Commodore Perry may be a Naval hero, but like many of them, he certainly had his own cultural and racial biases, and the way he forced Japan open in the 1800s isn't exactly a shining moment for diversity and tolerance in the US Navy's history.

That being said, non ethnic Japanese not knowing Japanese rules is not "new to them" unless you count "new" in terms of the totality of world history or in geologic terms.

..and that's it, really. Gotta prep for the party.

[GoNative]

I think I have mentioned before that I believe most of the racism here in Japan is purely out of ignorance rather than malice for any particular race of people (except maybe Chinese and Koreans). Most Japanese people have very little interaction with foreigners and many old prejudices and propaganda that dominated the pre-war education system do persist to this day.

A recent example of the sort of ignorance I'm referring to was about a week ago I was out with a group of friends and the issue of foreigners was being discussed. A Japanese girl asked in all honesty if we knew what colour blood black people have. Such ignorance is almost unfathomable to those of us who have grown up in more multicultural societies.

In regards to the Otaru onsens it was mainly Russian sailors that had caused the issues which resulted in all foreigners in being banned. I think in some weird way the onsen owners thought it would be racist to ban just Russians so banning all foreigners was a less discriminatory way to deal with the problem. I'm sure they probably didn't think their policy was racist at all. Because discriminating against non Japanese is not really unusual or unacceptable here.

People like Debito exist here because discrimination against non Japanese residents and citizens occurs reasonably frequently. Whether or not you agree with his rather in your face methods, like Ronin, I too have never really found any of the issues he champions to be totally without merit.

[MikeB]

It's really as simple as this, racism is bad and discriminating in such a way is illegal under international law. Japan is a developed country and as such is legally bound to punish such occurrences. I do agree that they are far less frequent than some people would have you believe, but when they do happen they ought to be challenged properly. Also, to suggest that racism is somehow a fundamental to Japanese culture is really quite silly.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I think I have mentioned before that I believe most of the racism here in Japan is purely out of ignorance rather than malice for any particular race of people (except maybe Chinese and Koreans). Most Japanese people have very little interaction with foreigners and many old prejudices and propaganda that dominated the pre-war education system do persist to this day.

Excellent point well made. It's one thing being a little nervous or indeed curious of a person who seems very different to you and quite another to hate them for it.

[cranks]

Sorry Tsuwabuki, I was a bit busy last weekend and didn't have the time to respond, but hey, you didn't really come back ether.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I have never, ever, NOT ONCE seen or heard of a Japanese person being asked to produce ID for no other reason than because they might not be Japanese

The "Questioning" Debito got is called "職務質問(しょくむしつもん)" which by itself is perfectly legal and a standard practice performed to the citizens in Japan. There are millions if not tens of millions 職務質問 preformed yearly.

Under the Japanese law, a policeman can perform 職務質問 anytime, and to any person he thinks it is necessary, and it is rather a matter of controversy for the law allows very arbitrary execution. If your friends are, say, young well dressed women, they pretty much never get 職務質問. If you are a middle age man, wearing an old T-shirts walking in the middle of a weekday in a residential area, you WILL get questioned and asked for ID sooner or later, regardless if you are foreign looking or not.

And as for the amendment and stuff, Japan has pretty much the same law. If you want to leave, the cops technically can't stop you, unless you do something suspicious like push them and run. The only power they have is to "ask" questions. They have the power to "ask" for hours though, as long as there is no force involved there. Did Debito get arrested? No. Was he physically stopped? No. The cop just "asked" if he could see his ID which the cop was entitled to.

Now, I actually hate 職務質問 law. I think it should be invalidated. However, a law is a law and it is ridiculous to purposely make it an issue of 外国人差別, and although I agree with the target of his action, I can't hold with the way he is doing it nor do I think it is even an effective strategy. He "purposely" made you and other guys who are not very familiar with how 職務質問 works "think" it is a problem with racism when it is actually a matter of how the police use their power to the citizens, ANY citizen. Google 職務質問 and you'll see that it is a huge controversy.

I found his web site too and checked this page out.

www.debito.org: THE ROGUE'S GALLERY: Photos of places which refuse non-Japanese in Japan

It totally looks like there is blatant racism going on left and right in Japan. But wait a minute. A half of these "racist" places are these shady places, the bars where girls serve men, or some of them down right brothels. OK. You want the right to be treated equally at a brothel. Sure. Japan is a free country you may have the right even for that. But think about it. If a Japanese person immigrates to the US and goes to these shady businesses, and purposely gets discriminated, and with these "evidences" makes it look like it is a standard practice at normal bars and restaurants in the states, and does all this in Japanese, making Japanese people think the US is a racist country... will you think that really is the way to make the US a better country? Do you think he will get a lot of support from his fellow US citizens?

I don't think so.

Again, I want to stress that I am not against what he wants to do. And I feel sorry for him being frustrated. I just don't agree with how he's doing it. Of course he might have done some other things that I'm not aware of and I might agree with these, but that's a different discussion.