Individualism versus gregariousness

[Japania]

I’ve heard that while in Western countries individualism prevails, in Japan there is a culture of gregariousness. Do you think it’s true? Could somebody set a comparative example?

[dogsbody70]

Hi there Japania what do you mean by gregariousness. You mean mixing well with others?

group system? Harmony?

[Japania]

I’d say that an individualist thinks using ‘I’ and a gregarious person prefers to think in terms of ‘we’. The gregarious one seeks and enjoys the company of others. For example, a gregarious person would prefer to travel in group than on their own.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Japania

I’d say that an individualist thinks using ‘I’ and a gregarious person prefers to think in terms of ‘we’. The gregarious one seeks and enjoys the company of others. For example, a gregarious person would prefer to travel in group than on their own.

I think you are correct in the first sentence, but not correct for Japan in the second.

The concept of social harmony as it is seen in Japan is very hard for Westerners to wrap their heads around, as it is so foreign. It took me years, and I am not 100% sure I fully get it.

The Japanese idea of acting for the "we" is not about preferring to travel in groups or be in big groups. It is not about being "social" in that sense of the word.

A few examples, in Japan there is more consciousness of "circles of influence" and ranking within those circles. This isn't militarist, it is actually comforting. It gives the proper clues to communication. This is true not only in business, but also socially. People are aware of each other's ages and act accordingly. For example if I were to go out to dinner with people younger than me, I will be treated as the "host" and will pay the bill...every time. However, if I go out with someone older than me, I know he will pay the bill...every time.

Another example would be in the classroom. If a teacher calls on a student to answer a question it is very normal for the student to get "consensus" from the students around her before answering the question aloud. Even if she knew the answer. It is more important for the class to look smart than it is for the individual to look smart.

[dogsbody70]

How very interesting MM.

Especially the eldest person expected to pay for meals.

could be extremely costly taking younger people out.

from what I have read-- and obviously I bow to M M's personal experience it used to be a case of blending with others in the group-- and the final consensus of agreement before action?

My Japanese friend here in UK-- Holds strongly to the GROUP discipline when with other Japanese people.

She told me that if a suggestion would be made to go to a cinema-- that al lwould agree with the choice rather than disagree. Of course she is a senior citizen so grew up in the old ways.


I believe she often struggles with the the British behaviours here in UK but she likes her present freedom to be herself.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

She told me that if a suggestion would be made to go to a cinema-- that al lwould agree with the choice rather than disagree. Of course she is a senior citizen so grew up in the old ways.

I think that an example like this one is difficult to use. Superficially it seems that everyone is just agreeing because they have to... And how horrible it would be to not have the freedom to express your own opinion.

However, it happens in much the same way outside of Japan.

Imagine being with a group of friends, and someone suggests going to the cinema. Everyone agrees and is acting like they want to go and are looking forward to it.

How easy would it be for you alone to say "No, I don`t want to go to the cinema." Chances are, you`d go along with it unless there was some horrific reason you absolutely could NOT go to the cinema. After all, friends having fun even if it`s not your first choice of locale is going to be better than you selfishly making everyone give up and go elsewhere... Or even worse, you ditching the group because they choose to go without you.

Something like this example is just peer pressure. It isn`t a Japanese thing. The group harmony thing in Japan is something much wider. It`s not about friends or even the people directly around you - I`ll even take the leap to say it really isn`t even about the "inner" and "outer" groups. It`s more about how your actions inconvenience others, and how you don`t want to be inconvenienced... And about consequences to your actions.
For example, if you litter - someone is going to have to clean that up. If you decide to do something self centered, someone - another person just like you - is going to suffer because of it. The effect is multiplied the closer you get to yourself (same neighborhood, same workplace, same school, same circle of friends, etc etc) but it still exists even when the other people have no connection to you other than simply being people.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

For example, if you litter - someone is going to have to clean that up. If you decide to do something self centered, someone - another person just like you - is going to suffer because of it. The effect is multiplied the closer you get to yourself (same neighborhood, same workplace, same school, same circle of friends, etc etc) but it still exists even when the other people have no connection to you other than simply being people.

From what I've seen in person and read about, by-stander intervention in Japan is pretty low because of this, particularly in scenarios where no one is in immediate danger or anything. It's not that they don't want to help, or that they don't care, or that they particularly need the consensus of the other by-standers to intervene (and western people do this just as much. People tend to look at the victim and then look at everyone else to see what they're doing before they wade in.), it's more that they don't want to embarrass the person who needs help.

Sounds weird, but I think that the social nature of Japanese culture means that one-sided social 'transactions' are pretty rare compared to other more individualistic cultures. It's not that Japanese people are ~less~ altruistic (as some people would have you believe) it's just that they're used to things being two-way, so getting yourself into trouble and causing another person to go out of their way to help you is a) highly embarrassing for adults; that's what kids do and b) is a difficult situation in which you can give back to your helper from. After all, it's probably a stranger you'll never see again.

[Sinestra]

"The nail that sticks out get hammered."

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Columbine

From what I've seen in person and read about, by-stander intervention in Japan is pretty low because of this, particularly in scenarios where no one is in immediate danger or anything. It's not that they don't want to help, or that they don't care, or that they particularly need the consensus of the other by-standers to intervene (and western people do this just as much. People tend to look at the victim and then look at everyone else to see what they're doing before they wade in.), it's more that they don't want to embarrass the person who needs help.

Sounds weird, but I think that the social nature of Japanese culture means that one-sided social 'transactions' are pretty rare compared to other more individualistic cultures. It's not that Japanese people are ~less~ altruistic (as some people would have you believe) it's just that they're used to things being two-way, so getting yourself into trouble and causing another person to go out of their way to help you is a) highly embarrassing for adults; that's what kids do and b) is a difficult situation in which you can give back to your helper from. After all, it's probably a stranger you'll never see again.

I think it depends on where you are. The bigger the metropolis the lower bystander intervention is anywhere in the world. I was in the Great Hanshin Earthquake in 1995, and I was happily surprised to see moments after the earthquake people were going door to door asking if everyone was OK.

I am not sure what you mean by "one-sided" transactions.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MMM

I think it depends on where you are. The bigger the metropolis the lower bystander intervention is anywhere in the world. I was in the Great Hanshin Earthquake in 1995, and I was happily surprised to see moments after the earthquake people were going door to door asking if everyone was OK.

I am not sure what you mean by "one-sided" transactions.

That's what I meant when I said that by-stander intervention is lower particularly when no one is in immediate danger. The Hanshin Earthquake was exceptional. I've fallen off a bike, my friend got hit by a car and people were immediately there to help; I'm talking more about scenarios where it would be ~nice~ to help, but not essential. Old lady can't reach the top supermarket shelf etc.

A one-sided transaction is where party A does something for party B without any perception on either side that party B should then therefore do something for party A. The best way I can describe it is if for example, my friends and I are going to the theatre. Tickets bought Dutch. I live half-way between my friends' house and the theatre so I say to them that for practical reasons (it's a long drive maybe) they can stop at my house and I'll make a casual dinner before we go to the theatre. That dinner is a one-sided transaction. It's not a gift, its an effort made on my part that is completely neutral, to make things more convenient for everyone. That, I know from experience, would not work as easily in Japan. Because the person who was offered the dinner would perceive it as that a) this sort of dinner-giving is normally a mutual exchange over time but b) I was refusing to let them make it mutual so C) I was putting them down/myself up.

British people would be utterly unfazed about this. We might SAY 'oh i'll cook you dinner next time' to be polite, but there's no expectation it'll ever happen and zero backlash if it doesn't. There's also little to no substantial gain if it does. I'm not saying this never happens in Japan, or that this is true across all scenarios, i just think it happens much less often, and much less overtly than in the west.