I wonder what other people think?

[dogsbody70]

JAPANESE CULTURE -- A PRIMER FOR NEWCOMERS


would Japanese folk agree with this? Or also those who visit JAPAN?

[MMM]

It seems a little outdated in parts, but I don't think it is terrible.

[chiuchimu]

As a quick 'watch out' guide for newbie foreigners in Japan, its OK.


But. it's not an accurate assessment of Japan.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by MMM

It seems a little outdated in parts, but I don't think it is terrible.

Outdated... is putting it kind of lightly. The page was around and "old" back when I was first looking into visiting Japan... almost 15 years ago. It was compiled from something on usenet which was posted back before the internet as we know it.
It`s a very old document. A real blast from the past.

My opinion is that it`s both accurate and not. The things written aren`t incorrect, but I think that a lot of them are misleading. It suffers from having a huge dollop of orientalism to make Japanese culture seem so different from western... When really, the concepts tossed out with Japanese names as if they don`t exist in English are pretty darn normal things.

"uchi-soto"... Do you care more about what people you know think of you than people who do not? Do you care more about what the people closest to you think than those you`re not as close to? Do you consider your family and close friends as more important than someone you just met? Congratulations, you`re doing "uchi-soto"! It carries a bit more weight in Japan, but it shouldn`t be treated as a foreign concept. It`s not something foreign and unknown. If you are out with a group of friends, and one person keeps being selfish and insisting on what THEY want to do even if it is a huge inconvenience for everyone else - I think that you`d get the same reaction pretty much everywhere.
The author uses the example of a debate, and it is true to an extent. People don`t really like to fight about something and will work more toward a compromise rather than an outright confrontation. I don`t really think this is linked to uchi-soto though - it`s more that people are taught to a) not fight about things and b) compromise if possible to avoid wasting time on disagreements.

"The Gaijin Complex" - this part is pretty outdated in my opinion. The guy distinguishes between Japanese attitudes toward western foreigners and Asian foreigners in part of it, but not in other parts of it (you no longer see commercials about foreign crime, but when they were around it wasn`t about westerners at all.)

"Honne and Tatemae"
Another one that is presented as a foreign concept but that is really not all that foreign at all.
Do you sometimes say things you don`t entirely mean because saying what you really think would upset people important to you? Have you ever politely answered someone`s friendly gesture with "Yes, let`s meet up sometime!" or something similar even if you had no concrete intention to follow up on it? Have you ever avoided giving a direct "NO!" because you didn`t want to upset the other person? Have you ever dropped (fairly obvious) hints about your true feelings without saying them straight and outright? If you have, then you`ve done "Honne and Tatemae". It`s basically just not saying exactly what you think when it might upset the other person if you care what they think. ie. You might think your friend is a total idiot for doing some stupid thing - but if you directly said "I think you`re a total idiot because of that!", you`d likely lose them as a friend and you don`t want that to happen. If you`re the type who just spouts everything that comes into your head without giving any thought to how it will effect the other people around you... This will be a hard concept to get your head around.

"Osekkai!"
I think this happens everywhere. There is always that acquaintance who wants to have a say in your life, or that relative who thinks they know what is best for you, or that person at work who seems to live only to disapprovingly gossip about other people`s lives.

"Giseisha and Urami"
Finally we get to one that isn`t all that common in the west and can really make use of the Japanese terms. (At least the giseisha part - he mistranslates urami)
Giseisha is the sacrifice of someone to end an issue, regardless of who is at fault. You will see this to an extent in western companies and groups, but it`s usually limited to them and only done when people call for it. A good example is the company that screws up somewhere along the line and the CEO resigns even though someone down the scale is the real root of the problem (although I`m sure they were fired too, but it doesn`t carry the same weight as the CEO.)
This sort of thing happens regularly on a micro scale in Japan. A group of friends does something that gets them in trouble - instead of all of them taking the blame and being punished, one will be "noble" and take the blame. In a company group everyone screws up and there is a demand for somebody to be obviously punished - so the blame will fall on an individual so that it`s easier to do it "for show". You can`t easily suspend/fire/etc a 20 person group, but you can an individual. Some of it is being noble, and some of it is totally against that person`s will... But there is usually a demand for someone to be punished or made an example of, and it is usually answered. What happens after the "show" is irrelevant.
Urami is more like a grudge against someone/something for some reason, and I don`t think it`s a "foreign" concept. If you`ve ever wondered "What did I do to YOU?" after having someone repeatedly be unpleasant toward you, you`ve been on the receiving end. If you`ve ever held a grudge against someone for something they did in the past and let it slip out in your dealings with them, you`re familiar with "urami".

"Amae" - this is pretty darned insulting to Japanese women, who are NOT childlike in anything other than outer behavior when judged by western standards. Even if I try to think of this as seriously outdated, it`s STILL a chauvinistic western man`s view.

"Tate-Shakai"
This is pretty much true, but at the same time I think that the lines between the "rich" and "not rich" are very very scrambled so nowhere near as clean cut as it is presented.

"Shikata ga Nai" is true, but it`s certainly not limited to "city hall". "Deal with it", "Grin and bear it", and "Keep a stiff upper lip" are MUCH closer to the real meanings. It`s for pretty much everything and isn`t limited to the government.
But when it is applied to government things, it is better to look to the "Tate-Shakai" bit and to the Japanese government itself. People don`t really have a means to do anything about a lot of things, so just "deal with it" when possible.

"Nihonjinron and Kokusaika", mostly true but outdated in a lot of parts - particularly the first paragraph.

"The Iron Triangle and the Empty Center" is the reason for reason for "shikata ga nai" in relation to the government. A bit outdated, but pretty much true.

"Where do I fit in?" - I`d say 90% of the foreigners in Japan stop at the "Critical Phase".

[dogsbody70]

HI Nyrorin, you are a very wise young lady.

I love the way you select and describe the similarities or differences between cultures. Very interesting indeed.

Are you a teacher?


Also amazing that article is still around. I have bought several books on Japanese society and culture but its difficult to find something really up to date.

thanks very much for your input.Babs in UK.

[dogsbody70]

"Amae" - this is pretty darned insulting to Japanese women, who are NOT childlike in anything other than outer behavior when judged by western standards. Even if I try to think of this as seriously outdated, it`s STILL a chauvinistic western man`s view. "NYRORIN"


HI Nyororin-- My japanese friend Can be extremely childish in her attitude. I cannot think of any of my English aquaintances behaving as She Does. she takes things very seriously-- but when her mood changes-- which it does-- rather suddenly-- she acts like a very young child-- and she is actually in her late sixties. She does take her studies extremely seriously-- and will never take a day off college. Having worked for a large Japanese company for most of her working life-- often- working till midnight--------But I love it when she is childish for a while.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

HI Nyororin-- My japanese friend Can be extremely childish in her attitude. I cannot think of any of my English aquaintances behaving as She Does. she takes things very seriously-- but when her mood changes-- which it does-- rather suddenly-- she acts like a very young child-- and she is actually in her late sixties. She does take her studies extremely seriously-- and will never take a day off college. Having worked for a large Japanese company for most of her working life-- often- working till midnight--------But I love it when she is childish for a while.

But you are judging based on what your English acquaintances would do. That is what I am trying to say - doing things that are considered the cultural norm in one country but not in another doesn`t mean that the person is childish. The things that are judged to be childish in one culture may be the expected behavior in another.

Judging based on your own culture, and assuming that the behaviors mean the exact same thing no matter what culture the person is from is simply wrong. It would be along the order of assuming that men from a culture where you greet each other with a kiss means that they are homosexual - even when it`s just a greeting to them and is perfectly normal where they are from.

Another cultural tidbit - the attitudes toward behavior for older people (60+) is a bit different than younger people. You`ve earned the right to be a bit demanding and selfish.

Anyway, all the "childish" women usually turn into very sensible and "adult" women once they have children. This isn`t magical - they don`t evolve into a different person. It is considered normal by society to like cute things, etc etc, so there is nothing "childish" about it. Setting an age where you should "grow out of" things is cultural, really.
I know a woman who loves cutesy things, has a full collection of figurines from Disney, can pull a "pout" to look cute, etc... She was the lead surgeon on the team that did the emergency operation on me to save my son`s life and speaks at several medical conventions a year. It would be very hard to call her "childish", even if things she likes would be considered so outside of Japan.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

But you are judging based on what your English acquaintances would do. That is what I am trying to say - doing things that are considered the cultural norm in one country but not in another doesn`t mean that the person is childish. The things that are judged to be childish in one culture may be the expected behavior in another.

Judging based on your own culture, and assuming that the behaviors mean the exact same thing no matter what culture the person is from is simply wrong. It would be along the order of assuming that men from a culture where you greet each other with a kiss means that they are homosexual - even when it`s just a greeting to them and is perfectly normal where they are from.

Another cultural tidbit - the attitudes toward behavior for older people (60+) is a bit different than younger people. You`ve earned the right to be a bit demanding and selfish.

Anyway, all the "childish" women usually turn into very sensible and "adult" women once they have children. This isn`t magical - they don`t evolve into a different person. It is considered normal by society to like cute things, etc etc, so there is nothing "childish" about it. Setting an age where you should "grow out of" things is cultural, really.
I know a woman who loves cutesy things, has a full collection of figurines from Disney, can pull a "pout" to look cute, etc... She was the lead surgeon on the team that did the emergency operation on me to save my son`s life and speaks at several medical conventions a year. It would be very hard to call her "childish", even if things she likes would be considered so outside of Japan.

Well said.

[dogsbody70]

UM I do not know many NON- English or British people intimately. MY friend is trying hard to be like the English-- but it will never happen. A a lifetime in Japan-- will remain.


I love her for the way she is:

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

UM I do not know many NON- English or British people intimately. MY friend is trying hard to be like the English-- but it will never happen. A a lifetime in Japan-- will remain.

This is right - but that doesn`t mean that she is childish. It`s all cultural. You were raised in one culture where certain things were viewed as childish, and she was raised in another where different things were viewed as childish. That doesn`t mean that she actually is childish - just that in your culture some of the things she does are considered to be so.