Japanese anime industry being killed by free downloads
 

From the Japan Times today:

The deepening Japanese recession and rapid shift in the overall landscape surrounding the Japanese anime industry have caused many to fear for the future of one of the nation's most prized cultural exports.

"The global fan base for Japanese anime is increasing, but with the old business model crumbling it isn't translating into profits," said Yasuo Yamaguchi, executive director of the Association of Japanese Animations.

The greatest obstacle to the future of the industry lies in the illegal Internet sites that provide free Anime content for download. "These sites upload programs almost immediately after they are broadcast in Japan," accompanied with "fan subs" - English subtitles translated by fans," Keisuke Iwata said. "This is causing a very big dent in sales."

Full Article: Future of 'anime' industry in doubt | Japan Times

i think MMM has made a thread similiar to this?

downloading anime
 

I think he has a general thread warning against downloading free anime and manga because you might hurt the people creating the art that you love.

This article is from today in one of the English language newspapers in Japan. It gives some statistics and quotes from anime industry people who are giving the same warning that MMM posted.

My opinion on this, at least within Japan;

The sales model of relying on DVD sales for almost all income is no longer going to fly at the current prices.
No matter HOW much I enjoyed a show, there is NO WAY I am going to pay minimum 5980 for a DVD containing one single episode and, if lucky, a 5 minute interview with one of the seiyuu.

The only people that actually buy them are extreme fans (otaku)... But they do buy them in small numbers so the model persists, and the prices are actually going up. Instead of realizing that lots of people would likely buy the DVDs if they were within a more normal price range - in effect giving them more volume and more profit - they decide to see exactly how much they can get out of the fans who are willing to pay ANYTHING. I`ve seen single 20 some minute episode DVDs for 10000+. If each had been, say, 1800 or less - like DVDs of movies, etc - I would actually consider buying them to support the studios. But at that much a pop, it`s WAY out of range.

Another big issue is the HD one. Anime is still being released for those sort of prices on DVD. When they release on Bluray, it often doubles. So you have the prospect of paying 15000+ for a single episode BD if you want to watch it at the same quality as it was broadcast originally. That is assuming they ever bothered to release a BD - most of the time they don`t.

On the other hand, online you can find full quality copies of the show. It`s hard to tempt someone into buying a low quality, extremely overpriced DVD... When they can get a full quality file for free. A 5 minute interview with a seiyuu isn`t going to cut it.

ETA;　Right now there are about 3 series that I would really like to own copies of. Own, not just have on my HDD recorder, or PC. But until they either a) Lower the prices of the DVDs to well below 5000 per 1 or 2 episode disc or b) Release it on BD for no more than the current price of the DVDs... It is out of the budget.

Same problem here in the states, I happen to like Anime as well but at 25 dollars a DVD, a 26 episode series can run me well over 100 bucks. I have bought two full series, Karin and Fate Stay Knight ( although I hated the ending of Fate..arrrgh) ...I have bits an pieces of others, wich is another problem, it can be difficult to get whole series...here in Iowa I can end up with episodes 1 - 12 not be able to get 13 - 20 and get 21 - 24.

4 DVDs for a 26 episode series? I think you misread part of what I said.
In Japan, it`s perfectly normal for a single episode to be sold for around $60. If you`re unlucky, a 26 ep series could end up costing you something over $1000. Even the cheapest ones end up being around $20/ep. For 26 eps, that`s still hitting $500.

I would kill to be able to pick up a whole series for $100. That isn`t really that much.

Then it seems that the domestic distribution of anime DVDs should be more like the foreign distribution. Either that or they should abandon the philosophy that each episode is solid gold, and priced accordingly.

I totally agree with this.

Since I made the original post, prices seem to have gone down a bit - Blu-ray has dropped below $100 in most cases, some quite low at $60~80 for 2 eps.
But it`s still a lot when most of the time people can record the shows at high quality on their HDD recorder.

$80 for two episodes?! Jesus! I think twice about buying high quality SHOES for that price, let alone a friggin' DVD! I mean, that's blatantly a rip-off; no wonder no one buys them. How much does making the DVD itself cost anyway? Probably minimal costs.

I find the same difficulty in the UK, it's usually about £20 for 4 episodes (So a better deal than in Japan, but still pricey), and normally there's the first few volumes and then nothing else. I've kind of given up on it; it's just too expensive, especially as I'm the kind of person who doesn't really ever invest in the fan base. Time wise, I mean. I watch anime and drama the same way some people watch soaps; it's a quick entertainment fix, not a $1000 hobby.

I do pick up books though, if I really liked a series, but that can be hard to source as well. Cheaper though; usually about £5-10 per book. On the other hand, it took me several months to get hold of a copy of vol 8 of the last print of Sailor Moon that wasn't going to cost me ridiculous amounts.

Honestly, dropping the price of it wouldn't change the fact that it is illegally downloaded. When they dropped the price of CD's here in the states it didn't change the fact that illegal downloads are killing the music industry. Most people pirate because they don't want to pay for what they want. I'd love to own a lot of different CD's from Japan, but I can't afford them, yet I won't download them either. And I'd say that 85% of the anime I've watched I own. about 10% of them would be from tv, and only 5% I've watched via places like youtube and such. But I usually end up buying the ones I watch online also.

I would say that in Japan, it would make a difference. Anime is aired at very high quality on television - most people aren`t so much downloading as they are recording things, in my opinion. There isn`t quite the same strong pirate culture as there seems to be elsewhere. The average Japanese kid isn`t surfing for torrents... It seems like 99% of the sites out there offering Japanese stuff for download are not even Japanese.

People tend to like to own things, and will gladly buy the things they like out of pure fandom. However, there is a point where the average buyer is locked out and only the most hardcore fan can afford this stuff - that is where the price point is currently set. For one, CD→MP3 doesn`t hurt all that much in terms of quality if you`re listening on a small portable device... And with anime, things are the other way around. The copies being sold are of much lower quality than those being shown on television. (Except for the relatively rare BD releases.)
People are watching anime on large high definition televisions. The idea of paying a huge amount for an inferior copy simply isn`t appealing to a consumer. Especially when you can record the show in full quality if you have an HDD recorder.

I think it would be somewhat similar to having digital radio stations playing songs in full CD quality, with a legal CD recorder being built right into your stereo and easy access to (illegal) full quality stuff for free - But in the store there are only low quality tapes which they are charging $50 a song...
Unless you are a die-hard fan and absolutely MUST have the minute of artist talk they threw in as an extra to make up for the low quality and high price, chances are you`re not going to feel a strong urge to pay that much.

I am not for illegal downloading, and would LIKE to buy a lot of things, but it simply isn`t feasible at the current prices... Or rather, is very hard to justify dropping that much money on a poor copy when I can legally record and keep a copy at full quality on my HDD recorder.

I think that the original article was more concerned with the rapid spread of fan-subs, and their effect on sales of anime outside of Japan though... Fan-subs have nothing to do with things inside Japan.

$60 for one episode? thats insane i would never pay that much for an episode I won't even pay $24 for four episodes. What would cause such a difference in price especially since what we can buy in the us has been re recorded to be in english or at least subtitled. That dosn't even make since.

Not every series is that high, but it`s a very common price point.
The reasoning is that if people are willing to pay that much, there is no reason to lower the price. And there are fans who are willing to pay nearly anything in some cases - check the prices for the special and regular editions of Ichigo Marshmallow OVA. I believe there was one episode on the DVD with the special being 17000 and the regular 12000. And they sold.
I think the difference in price is really what the market is used to and expecting. You gawk at that much per episode, but it`s the norm so no one gawks here. They just think a bit more before picking one up. CDs here are also generally high ($40 album is a normal price point).

Thats really high. I always thought that prices were pretty high here. Hmm so it just seems to me that pricing like that should be illegal but I guess as long as people are willing to pay that much it won't really go down. I don't buy anime unless it is truly a good deal which is unusual. I watch it on tv or the internet or borrow it from a friend. I don't download it because i don't need to and besides those torrent sites are a waste of my timelol. Viruses everywhere.

I don't know anyone who actually spends money on anime these days (In America)-- mainly because the American releases are substantially less 'popular' than the downloadable Japanese versions.

Some people just put up direct downloads.

That aside, I download anime, if a series catches my interest. I don't usually keep it, though. After I watch it, I delete it. If I really enjoyed it, I put it on my "to eventually buy whenever it gets an international release" list. Unfortunately, there really aren't too many series I feel are worth owning that I've seen and the stuff I want on DVD, isn't (older series mostly). Same goes with music.

Years ago, before it really hit me, I used to download whatever. I knew I wasn't going to hear Japanese stuff on the radio here and it was much to expensive to import. I then got to the point where I'm sampling more so than anything else, but, unlike anime, I do tend to keep music. I mostly pick and choose which artists/groups to support and buy stuff for since I can't buy everything. I guess you could say that that's a "to buy eventually" type thing too.

I feel that if someone is truly a fan of a work, that he or she will invest money to buy something to support the franchise, even if it's years down the road. Unfortunately, these types are probably far and in-between.

Wow, things are much more expensive there. They ship them in 4 episode DVD's sometimes 5 episodes here. The Americanized versions sometimes seem to cut out alot of what's actually being said.

I think it is best to read the whole article, as something seemed suspicious to me in the snippets Niyusu clipped. Illegal downloading is only one part of the problem, but it is a major problem for the exporting of anime. The two issues are 1) high priced DVDs and 2) thanks to the Internet fans are aware of what is happening in Japan, and they don't have the patience to wait for an official English release. TV Tokyo joined up with Crunchyroll so that for 7 bucks a month you can get official subtitled releases on your computer of anime faster then the fansubbers can sub them. That is a great deal! And this will probably be the future of the industry. Digital DL is the way of the future, and the industries are starting to see that.

And yes, I did start a thread that talks about this subject:

http://www.japanforum.com/forum/anim...anga-free.html

That sounds good are they doing that now then?

Yes, it started in January.

The prices in America are much more reasonable than the prices in Japan...it probably works out to 1/4 the cost of what it would to buy in japan. However, that is still not cheap.

Generally people that DL for free have justified the stealing in their head or are too ignorant to realize it is stealing. They say things like "I don't want to wait, I want to see what happens next now!" But they wouldn't need to wait if they didn't start stealing in the first place.

People have this fantasy that anime and manga grows on trees, and it doesn't . It takes work, which takes people, which takes money. No money means no more anime. It's not rocket science. Look at how many steal manga and anime off the internet and then look at the anime companies and manga publishers that have gone out of business.

I'm gonna have to disappoint you MMM, but for 7 bucks people get a chance to see their favourite episodes 1 day (if not even less) sooner then those who illegally download them, fansubbers work really fast. Maybe this 7 bucks a month membership on Crunchyroll will attract few impatient die-hard fans, but that's it, the situation won't really change that much as some people might believe.

Maybe what's killing the anime industry is the lack of decent anime? In the last 12 months there's been nothing worth downloading, never mind buying.

The last anime I bought was Ergo Proxy, made in 2006. I suppose 2007 had some good releases... Bokurano, Dennou Coil, Ghost Hound and Sayonara Zetsubou-Sensei. Are they ever going to be released in the west? Doubt it.

I've illegally downloaded/pirated/stolen anime in the past. It was free, it was there and I wanted to know if it was good or not. If it was good, I went ahead and bought the real deal. If it wasn't, delete ahoy it's wasting space on my drive.

I don't feel bad about it to be honest. I'm not gonna know whether I like something or not unless I try it and I'm sure not going to fork out for something sight unseen. I wonder why it is these people are assuming that every download represents a lost sale? Just because people are getting it for free, it doesn't mean they'd pay for it.

Sorry if I offended anyone, that's really not my intention.

PS: New business model please.

Well, they have 10,000 subscribers already, so that's a start. The trick is to have the "official English translation" finished before the show is even broadcast in Japan, that way fans all over the world can get the official translation, which is going to be better than a fansub.

^ I'm one of those subscribers. Was getting my fix solely from [neveryoumind] until Crunchyroll stepped up. I actually prefer the subs from the free place still, but oh well.

Unfortunately you are in the minority. But you are still stealing and it is still illegal.

When did this sense of privilege to test-drive something before we buy come from? I'll buy a CD from an artist I like without knowing if it is good or not. I pay for a movie at the movie theater before I watch it, not after...and choose to pay whether I liked it or not. The entertainment industry doesn't work that way. You are seeing the results. "Fans" would rather steal than reward those entertaining them for what they received.

All anime that is for sale has promos, commercials, reviews, etc. available for free and legally. Next time go to the publisher's site and check those out instead of downloading, excuse me, stealing and deciding to pay for it, or not, later.

If you aren't going to pay for it, then you don't get it. That's how business works. When you have a system where some people are paying for it who can and others are stealing it for free as a result there will be nothing for anyone in the end.

I agree, if people didn't upload people wouldn't download. But if someone leaves the keys in their car, does that make it ok to steal it? I mean, it was easy, right. And I don't have any money, so I wasn't going to buy the car anyway, right?

What happens is that people clued up about anime, download a series before it's licensed and then decide whether to buy it or not when it comes out. They get to preview it.

Those who are a bit slower off the mark, download it when it's been licensed, and then decide whether to buy it or not. Those in the above category can't then call these people thieves having enjoyed the series for free themselves. So we have to ban the downloading of unlicensed anime?

I hope I am not blowing your mind when I say that the download of fansubs of unlicensed materials is illegal as well. This is covered in the Berne Convention, and almost every country in the world, including of West agreed. Basically it means that international copyrights are respected the same way as domestic copyrights. So no, they don't "get to" preview it. It is still illegal and is still stealing from someone who created something without paying for it. The only difference is the victim is in another country, so you are less likely to get caught.

I thought you'd seen the anime Monster. But I guess I must be wrong. I admire the stance you take, the best of the recent anime releases look like they're not going to be licenced, so it must be hard to miss out on them.

No, I have never seen the anime Monster, just the manga.

There is no way to know what is going to be licensed and what isn't, but the best thing for fans to do is tell publishers what they are interesting in.

You know if anime is really something that you love (and I am talking to everyone here) you need to support the industries. These means being vocal about titles you like and spending part of your entertainment income on anime, that could be a few bucks a month at Crunchyroll, buying a DVD, renting off Netflix, going to conventions and buying merchandise, whatever...

Don't worry MMM your views are perfectly and valid and reasonable to me and I honestly don't take offence.

I do it with music and movies too. I don't do it with clothes, accessories, books etc as I'm able to lay my hands on the completed article and better able to make an informed choice on whether I want it or not. As long as the labelling is honest I know I'm getting what I paid for.

Personally, I'm really interested to see how business deals with the whole P2P issue and who's going to come out on top. The current models ARE NOT WORKING so a new approach will be great.

:D

Edit: Slightly off-topic, who else noted the Pirate Party getting a seat in Parliament? I know I'm watching developments with great interest.

In this case, I don't really see it as that much of a problem, especially if the episode aired say, Saturday night, and it's up to watch Sunday night with subs. Is it no different than watching it live due to how close it is? Isn't it pretty much the same as taping it and watching it later? Can't the subs act as basic closed-captioning?

I've been watching Dragon Ball Kai lately. Not downloads, though, just a live-stream when it's already airing, so for me, that's about 8:00 pm EST, Saturday night. What if I waited a day to watch it with subs because I didn't feel like keeping up with a raw for a certain episode. Would you still consider this a bad thing?

Just checked out Crunchy Roll and it is a good alternative. For the most part, though, I'm not all that into anime and my series watching is far and in between, so most of what's there doesn't interest me, 'cept for Gundam 00, and that's only because it was recommended to me. I wish there were older titles to choose from with official subs...even something simple like Pokemon would be nice or Monster Rancher or Yoroiden Samurai Troopers (I know it has one, but Bandai was stupid with the series' limited release; this is a series I literally want to own, and that's rare with me when it comes to shows).

To be honest, I wish more manga would get licenses so that I won't have to look at scanlations...then again, there's some manga that doesn't have that due to how rare it is. I just hope Kuroshitsuji gets a license for its manga. I definitely would buy that.

All that aside, about "sampling"...I don't have a problem with checking something out prior to buying, especially if you have to import it. I'm more into music than I am into anime so most of my money would go towards that. I like to hear something before I get it if it has to be imported. I'm more lenient towards stuff I can get at the Best Buy stores like 10 and 20 minutes away from me. Of course there are some artists/groups I buy for regardless (Akino Arai; Rie fu; THYME; etc), but others, if I like the cd, it goes onto my "I will someday be able to get this" list. lol Import fees are expensive.

A pay j-tv streaming site was just shut down a week or two ago. Why? The money users were paying was going to the hosts of the website, but not the actual TV stations it rebroadcast.

Fansubbers supposedly live by an edict of "we don't get paid for what we do, therefore it is OK" but the truth of the matter is it is not legal. That was my point. If you think watching unlicensed titles DLed or streamed or whatever is OK because it isn't illegal, then you are mistaken.

The moral dilemma is your own, but I don't believe in taking for free what other people pay for legally. Or more importantly, I don't believe in being part of the problem of the demise of the anime industry, and as a fan I would rather be a supporter.

Well, I use Keyhole TV. Not sure what the deal with that is. I kinda like it since I can look up drama programs...if I remember. lolNah. To me, I still see it as sampling before buying. I don't even get Cartoon Network on television, so I don't watch it on reg TV or anything like that. After I watch a show, I approach it like this: could I rewatch this series after it's over or would I only go back for maybe an episode or two? If it's the latter, then that series will remain off of my "to buy" list. I would hate to shell out cash for something like that, and it turns out I didn't like it enough to even want to own or either it has no rewatch value to me. I'm like this towards pretty much everything, not just junk on TV. Same goes for movies. If I see a movie in the theatre, after I'm done watching it, I ask myself the same question. Most movies, to me, don't have rewatch value...'cept for maybe older ones. So, when it gets a home release, I don't get it.

Anywho, anime seems to fit into this category. Most that I've come across don't seem to have any rewatch value. It saved me some money...which I'd use towards manga and music, and with music, I definitely samlpe before I buy because of how expensive it is, unless it's an obscure artist and I just buy it anyway, regardless of whether or not I'll like what I purchase.Maybe this is my problem. Unlike most, I don't think I'm a true "anime" fan, which is probably why I don't feel entirely bad if I randomly watch a series that I download each week or whatever since it's not a daily thing. I rarely watch anything anyway, not like say...10+ years ago. I'm a big manga fan, though, and read a lot of it compared to the anime stuff and wish that would have more means to getting legally, but if it isn't licensed, there isn't much that can be done, although, I am glad that some of the stuff I mentioned in your other thread has one now and I'm definitely going to put that on the "high priority" list. I'd get that before any anime series. Manga, for the most part to me, has re-reading value.

To me, it just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore. I still feel that places like Crunchy Roll needs more variety. Most everything there is either too new or too mainstream.

That aside, what I said earlier still can apply. If one truly enjoys a series, then he/she will more than likely support it to some extent, even if it's later than expected. Last anime series I watched, and actually enjoyed, was Deathnote. I saw that subbed before it got a license in the states (now you see how long ago that was lol). After watching it, I said I'd buy the boxset of it whenever one was released for it. It's still on my list...just on the back burner for now....more interested in a lot of music-oriented things I've been putting off for years (I'm finally getting SUITE CHIC's two albums along with Do As Infinity's latest single which gets here tomorrow! ^_^).

I have to strongly disagree with you here MMM. He is indeed in the vast majority and that has been reflected by what you have announced in your first post. As Nyororin said, it is only those small die-hard group of otaku's that purchase the overly priced DVD's. The matter-at-hand is that these DVD prices are outrageous and the choice for these companies is by either reduce them severely to a rate that those young kids with not much parental support can buy (including cash-strapped college kids as well) or a new business model (*cough*RIAA*cough*). If they can't achieve any of those things, then go bankrupt; free markets are not 4-year old playpens, you either make a good product with a good model and failure to achieve either results in failure itself, simple as that. If these companies are looking for empathy, they've got another thing coming to them while trying to raise prices in a back-hand fashion. They aren't getting a single cent out of me till they learn how to play ball.

You are mixing up the price points in Japan (where Nyororin lives) and in America. The price for anime DVDs in Japan runs about 4 times those in the US. That being said they are still expensive.

Anime publishers are not idiots and to think that they would price them so high in the US that no one could afford them on purpose is insane. The problem is that bringing anime to English isn't free. Voice actors, translators, sound studios, licensing...all this costs money.

If you think the majority of people that steal anime online actually go out and buy it later, I think you need to check your facts. Just posts on this site show that the majority of people that steal online do not "have the money" to support their "anime addiction."

Does that mean you are not watching their products? I talked about earlier legitimate ways to watch manga that don't mean you have to buy the DVDS.

You can rent then on Netflix, and then see them on X-Box Live...rent them from the local video store...you don't have to steal to see it.

This attempt to victimize the fanbase is going to fall flat. People that steal their entertainment are not fans and end up hurting those that really are fans.

isnt currency stronger in japan that in america? which might be the reason its more expensive, idk i went to public school. but as to the question about free downloads, i found that business is good when they got rid of bootleggers from my town. people still ask around for burned movies, but movie sales are good, especially anime movies. some people want to own the actual DVD's because they are better.