Ronin,

"BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!" is not logic. And you know it. I'm not Dolphin, so I don't care about them. You are not Dolphin, so you have no business with them. Cod Erat Demonstrandum.

You are human, so you are more "emotionally attached" to human. Yes. That's natural. But that's not a logic. Social animal species NEED to care about their own species. Or it's actually the other way around. They cared about each other, so they survived. That's how we evolved. That's why our species survived according to the Darwinist view. Now if you don't believe in evolution, please tell me so, because that'll change things a lot.

Assuming you believe in evolution, you care about humans more than pigs, because that's how our species survived. It is a "CAUSE" of our species' survival. It is not "logic". We are "made" to be that way.

How inhuman of you, Ronin, to say dogs don't have "selves" and therefore we can kill them and eat them as we please? I bet I could get a majority of English speaking people, or any human who didn't eat dog, on my side with this argument if we were talking about dogs. According to your logic, dogs don't have selves so we can kill them. How dare you say that? Haven't you a heart? :P

Really, if you think you can convince any dog owner with your "logic" of "non-self-aware animals can be killed and eaten", try it. You'll fail. Most humankind don't care if their dogs recognize their own optical images in a mirror or not. The mirror test? That's just freaking bogus. Dogs have selves. That's a given. Whatever "LOGIC" you employ won't move their hearts a bit.

Likewise, whatever "logic" I employ to "prove" that the species you call "whales" don't have "selves" will be moot. You'll just deny it, or just won't care. Everybody knows that, so please don't casually say you care about logic in the heat of a moment unless you really have a very good "logic". This topic is really about my, and a lot of Japanese people's, "beliefs". Please don't play it down. Please treat it as you treat your friends' Christian beliefs. I'm not saying "don't even talk about it", I do like to talk about it and I do appreciate your candidness. But please acknowledge that my opinion here is not something I concocted after I engaged in this discussion. It is a product of over a couple of decades of deliberation, backed, somewhat, by over a couple of thousands of years of the history of the Eastern philosophy.

You have said you are morally superior to people in Taichi and indirectly me. But if you are so morally superior, I think you should care about your own countries' inhumanity to your fellow human race first and foremost. I have brought up several racial discrimination cases by the anti-whaling folks here. And I've noticed you haven't made any comment whatsoever on that and just kept going on about whales. As I said, I like whales, but the racism to my race is more important for me than the whales. Coloreds are stabbed and killed by the racists in your country and the one next to it. What are all these "morally superior" people doing with whales? PEOPLE are being MURDERED because of racism IN YOUR COUNTRY! and these anti-whaling people are actually INCITING the racism!

Racism is hard to see when you are the majority. Myself included of course. It was a good experience that I got a racial slur in the UK on the street. (not to bash the UK. Racism happens everywhere and I think the UK is one of the better countries. It was just a stupid brad). It made my eyes open to racism and how I was so insensitive to it. I'm no better than you or anybody, but in this particular case I'm the working end of the racism, so I see more than you do. I brought up the example of Japanese mocked on street on Australian TV, but even Misa, who I believe is a very liberal person, failed to perceive it as an extremely racist act until I present the hypothesized example of Japanese people mocking Koreans on TV. Again, racism is hard to see when you are the majority. There are hundreds of thousands of racist remarks on the web regrading whaling. Sure, there are hundreds of thousands of racial remarks on the web by Japanese too, but I would NEVER EVER allow that in a group I belong to, and it is a more serious problem than most anything to me, more than the animal welfare for sure.

You probably remember how I was so worked up with Debito. I don't think he's evil to the core, he can even be a good person to hang out with. But I'm sorry, he is a bigoted racist. If posting the comic strip called "A Little Yellow Jap" that mocks Japanese race on the web, for whatever reason, doesn't earn him the racist title, I don't know what will. He is an "activist" on discrimination but he thinks it is totally fine to post that thing in public. Racism is that hard to recognize sometime.

I won't close this post with [/RANT]. It was out of modesty to do so in the last post. But this time I want my message to be clear. This is how I actually feel and what I believe in. No hard feelings though. I like your straightness and I thank you for giving me a chance to express our side of view, Ronin.

This isn't about racism. It's about economics versus animal rights. Taiji fisherman kill the dolphins for money, pure and simple. People from around the world think dolphins are somewhat amazing animals and don't wish to see them slaughtered in the manner they are in Taiji. Nothing to do with racial issues.
Japanese nationalists like to try and deflect the argument by trying to make it into an issue of racism but it isn't.

Believe what you want to believe. It's ironic you are GoNative. you seem to have no interest in going native in Japanese culture.

A lot of people in Japan think these activists are racist. And I agree.

If you think I am a slanted nationalist Japanese, that's fine. But the truth is, I'm probably one of the most liberal Japanese person who understand the western (and antipodal) side of the view more than 99.9% of Japanese people. Just look at what language we are using. It is not even my mother tongue, yet honestly, I'm making a lot more considerate post than your 5 line post.

I repeat. Racism is hard to see when you are the majority. Racism is not just about using the N word. It's about the feeling of superiority.

Explain then how this is a racist issue. There are plenty of examples from other countries where when graphic slaughter of wild animals is exposed to the wider world pressure is applied to have it stopped. It's no different in this case and has nothing to do with it being in Japan. Sure some people might make racist comments and there are plenty of people out there who have racist attitudes towards the Japanese and this issue just backs up their predjudices but at it's core this is not a racial issue and it's best if we don't let the idiots from either side of the argument make it into one.

You clearly haven't read my posts. Please read them and come back. Please read the entire thread for that matter. Nobody's talking about banning of one specie for an environmental concern.

Once you read them, please present the examples of "slaughter of wild animals" that were banned because they were "graphic" .


P.S.
If you have talked to Japanese people who were really worked up with the issue and ended up acting like an idiot, I even apologize for them. But unless you talked to them in Japanese, it is not fair. "They" tried to talk to you in "your" language, and you talked to them with your own or something you are good at. I still think these stupid Japanese fellows are the ones who were trying to reach out, not you.

I've read the entire thread and have commented numerous times. This is the first time you've decided to actually read what I've written and commented.

A classic example of an industry being shut down from international pressure because of the graphic nature of the slaughter was clubbing of seals for their fur. Canada was especially singled out. No one claimed it was because of racism then.

There are many examples from all over the world of international pressure on countries that kill endangered animals or animals that have some sort of cutesy appeal to the masses. Look at the world wildlife funds website for the sorts of issues that get animal rights people up in arms currently. Many more countries then Japan being singled out.

It wouldn't matter where in the world it happened, the sort of graphic slaughter of dolphins that occurs in Taiji would get animal rights people up in arms. this particular issue is occurring in Japan but the world condemnation is not because you're Japanese it's because dolphins are being slaughtered ina rather horribly graphic way. Personally I don't get all that upset about it myself one way or the other but it's ridiculous to try and turn this into an issue of racism. It's not.

As I said previously that doesn't mean that some people do use racial slurs in their arguments against the slaughter. They do but this is not an issue about race it's an issue about people slaughtering dolphins. A lot of people around the world don't like it. Simple as that.

Yes, the West banned clubbing of seals for their fur. And these Native Americans are in poverty now precisely for that reason.

Just because it "HAPPENED", why is it "RIGHT" to do? Australians hunted aborigines, so should we be hunting them again then?

I have no problem YOU care about whales more than racism. Really. But racism IS clearly there. I just don't see why caring whales than human race is morally superior. Why?

EDIT:
On the web, there are a lot of people who are, eh, let's say, a bit special. I didn't purposely ignored you, I just didn't see you directly talking to me. This is a controversy I am sure to be in a defending position in an English forum, so sorry if I didn't notice you. Ronin was the one who was posting persistently, and who I knew posted some reasonable posts before. That's why I responded to him, and that's really the only reason.

I'm not saying it is. I'm not arguing morality here. The killing of dolphins in Taiji is purely financial for some in that local community. And as far as I'm concerened that is all it is.
I also believe that the vast bulk of Japanese people have no idea whatsoever of what occurs there. If they did I suspect many would also be appalled at the way the slaughter is carried out.
No country gets to just do whatever it wants without criticism in this day and age. Japan can choose to condone what occurs in Taiji but it can't expect to receive no criticism for it. The criticsm is about the slaughter of dolphins not racism against the Japanese people.
I honestly don't understand your reference to hunting aboriginies in Australia. It is a part of Australian history that is shameful for most Australians and thankfully we moved on from that barbaric past.
People today believe the slaughter of dolphins in Taiji is barbaric as well. They have every right to criticise those doing it. Japan is not immune from international criticism.
And to play the racism card every time it occurs gets a little boring...

Well, I'm sorry, but I still have some teeny tiny life left and I really can't deal with all the different feelings of different people, especially when it is expressed like "Oh these nationalist Japanese are bad. They kill whales and they don't have heart." Really. Sorry.


eh, of corse. The Cove earn a lot more and the GreenPeaces annual budget is like more than 100 times than these dolphins are worth. What do you say to that? why don't you go there and save the dolphins for free?


Do you know what's going on? You can't even speak Japanese. How do you know what's going on there? "Japanese" people are the ones saying that the way the film was taken was extremely one sided.

You are welcome to prove that you do.

Have you ever visited a slaughter house in your country? You'll be appalled, really appalled, dude.

First, Japanese haven't forgotten the nukes that an ex-KKK president dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You'll probably say "Oh, that's American, we have nothing to do with it" but it's all the same to Japanese people. I'm not really mad or anything, and the Nukes is just one example, but I am hoping you get an idea.

Secondly, If you really have read my posts, You know I repeatedly said it is about my "BELIEFS". Will you have that kind of attitude when you talk about your friends' Christian beliefs just because you don't hold with them? How about Muslim? I think my attitude about my beliefs is lenient compared with a lot of Christian and Muslim people and I actually do like to talk about it and do like constructive criticisms. But can you at least have SOME respect please?

And, sorry it was "Boring" that I "Play the racism card". But if you think mentioning the show that mocks random Japanese people on the street out of the blue for whaling is "Playing the racism card", I have nothing to say to you. I don't know about your country, but it is not something you can play down as a "boring racism card" in Japan. If you can't see the racism there, or it's "boring" to you, that's too bad. There are a lot of people who think the same way, and I just sigh and walk away.

Sorry you are completely losing me on most of that post.
I am not one of the people saying the slaughter should be stopped. I am not arguing that dolphins are somehow superior to other animals and deserve special consideration. I do believe though that hunting wild populations of animals is a little different to slaughtering animals that have been domesticated, bred and farmed purely for human consumption.
I am not suggesting that bad things happen to animals only in Japan and for your information I worked a couple of summers in cattle slaughter houses in Australia and I still love eating beef! :mtongue:

All I am saying is that there are people who believe that dolphins do deserve special consideration, that they are not just like any other animal. There are also people who believe the way in which the dolphins are slaughtered in Taiji is cruel and unusual. It's not a matter of whether I agree with them or not which to be honest I don't.

I do believe though these people have every right to express their outrage about what is occurring in Taiji and to protest against the slaughter. I don't believe it has anything to do with racism. This sort of slaughter of dolphins would be condemned no matter where it happened in the world. It is ridiculous to try and turn this into a racism issue.

I have absolutely no idea why you have brought up the nuclear bombings during WWII. What have they got to do with this issue? And I dislike nationalists in any country. Over the top patriotism is destructive anywhere it occurs. I am certainly not patriotic one little bit about my home country. Criticise it all you like ;)

And I have had many arguments with friends over the years about their beliefs in religion and god. Sure people have a right to their beliefs but I reserve the right to criticise them for their beliefs :vsign:

This kind of first hand experience will be respected in Japan. Or I believe in anywhere.

I think that is fine. People like smart mammals.

The thing is, how can your "belief" superior to other people's? If you have been following the discussion, you know it is THE nub of it. If they say "I like dolphins, so I want them have special considerations. I'll compensate for your losses, so can you please not kill them?" It will be taken a lot more positively. The logic, "I AM SUPERIOR TO YOU! YOU SHOUD LISTEN TO ME!! OR WE WILL ATTACK YOU!!!" genocided millions and millions of Muslims. Have you forgotten crusades?

We really don't know how the slaughter was. The movie, as I said, was taken in a very dishonest way. It is somewhat OK in the Western culture, but these kind of dishonest tactics just don't wash in Japan. If you have ever worked in Japan, you should know this. The reason why you are taking the side with that movie is because you speak mainly English. That's not your fault, but regardless a prejudice.

Sure. You can say "Japs should die!" all day long. It's legal in Japan.

It's your opinion. But you should consider the fact a lot of Japanese people, even the one like me who speak good enough English(I hope) to hold a prolonged debate, find it racism. I was actually anti-whaling several years ago. If you can't even see the blatant racism from the examples I brought up... I don't know...

I was just hoping you get the idea. Japan was the first country that came up in the caucasian world. Nukes is just an example. I can come up with dozens. Yes, she herself did bad things to other countries, but still, before she stood up, coloreds were slaves. You don't understand. Japan had to fight white, Christian, "supremacy" for over 100 years and now she's getting this. Can you please please consider the possibility that "I don't care, I'm not patriotic type!" may not fly in an other culture? Imagine saying that to an Iraqi...

You are very cool, but I noticed how your attitude changed after I mentioned it is my "BELIEFS". I don't want to make it such a big deal, but some of you guys just don't get it that "A FUNDAMENTAL CULTURAL VALUE" is pretty much a synonym for religious beliefs. And yeah, I know what I'm talking about. I got a BA in International Cultures and wrote a thesis about Community.

If culture is similar to religion, then it should be okay to question it, criticize it and disagree with it.

From the sociological view, Religion IS culture. And I totally agree with you. We should be able to discuss about it. I think Christianity and Muslim are A LOT more unforgiving, though they have a lot of good quality too, but the talk of religion is forbidden on this forum so I won't go into that.

Japanese beliefs are not explicitly expressed as a faith, but people are actually pretty religious in their own way. I just want some respect. Not to me, but to other Japanese people. Really. I BEG you to respect other cultures. It's hard, I know. But unless we try, there is only war.

the problem with this issue is the concept of "orientalism" as stressed by edward said, wherein he says that there's a phenomenon in the western world wherein they see the middle east, as for our case, the entire asia within the western lens; thereby, whatever the western culture says barbaric or whathaveyou, damn us.

in our side of the globe, we have been judged for eating dogs, as part of our culture, when in fact it was actually the americans, who taught the northerners to eat dogs to survive during ww2, since livestock are dying at that time and dogs are pretty much abundant. however, until now, they (americans) are still denying it. on the otherhand, since that certain province has adopted the practise as a means to survival, it has became their culture and we dog-loving southerners have no power over it; yet, our country is being generalised by dog-loving westerners as dog-eaters, which is unfair. to some extent, japan and us have the same "damn you __-eaters/killers" experience" (disclaimer: i am not implying that the american may have also taught whaling to the japanese ok? clear!)

i have watched the cove and am quite disturbed, as i have been swimming and diving with dolphins at my mom's province all my life. yes, the movie revealed quite a lot with regard to the slaughter and how some locals would tend to cover up the act; but then again, as what others have mentioned, regardless whether this is a culture issue or not - if the japanese have proven by solid historic evidence that whaling is a culture similar to the scandinavian cultures - so be it. let's just respect no matter how gruesome it may seem to other cultures. and also, as others have also mentioned and as it has been reiterated in the movie, not all japanese are aware of it. on this note, i would like to conclude that the issue of "the cove" would be more appropriately addressed if taken on the side of "personal sentiments" rather than of culture.

I just can't believe where you are taking this debate. What is happening in Taiji is not about culture it's about good old simple greed. Some local fisherman have worked out a way to help protect their fish stocks by killing off a whole lot predators that eat fish and to make some money off selling the meat. I personally don't have any big problem with this at all. Good on them!

One thing this is not is some huge cultural issue. What you don't seem to get cranks is that Japan is intricately part of the international community. Japan, even in it's own country, can't just do anything it wants without criticism. No country can. Countries all over the world come under criticism all the time for things they do in their own countries.

During the previous government in Australia, a very conservative government, they cracked down massively on asylum seekers arriving in Australia by boat. I personally was appalled at their policies and so were many in the international community. Some Australians claimed other countries had no right to tell us how we should manage our borders. I disagreed, we needed to be told we were doing the wrong thing as good sense seem to have left many of the Australian public after years of quite effective government propaganda. One thing they never claimed though was that the attacks on the policies from other countries were racist!

I'm not saying the Taiji issue is some major international issue for Japan because in reality it's not. It's only some very vocal and well organised animal rights groups making a lot of noise. I haven't exactly heard of any foreign governments putting any pressure on Japan over the issue. Yes there has been pressure to drop the whaling outside of Japanese waters but that's a whole other issue.

The thing I see from the somewhat ridiculous arguments you are putting forward though is an incredible defensiveness and intolerance to any criticism from anyone outside of Japan or anyone who is not Japanese. And using cultural excuses and the racism card to deflect the criticism away from the actual issue, the slaughter of dolphins, and try and make into something else. If you think there is something so incredibly special about Japanese culture and the Japanese people that make it and them immune from criticism then it is you who seems to have the superiority complex. Being part of an international community means you will be criticised now and again, for gods sake get used to it and stop being so defensive about it!

And trying to discredit my views because I'm not fluent in the language well look I've lived here almost 7 years. I do speak a reasonable amount of Japanese and I do have lots of very good Japanese and western friends who are completely fluent in speaking, reading and writing in English and Japanese. I don't live in an information vacuum because of my lack of fluency and I don't just get one side of the story. And I certainly didn't just get my information on Taiji from The Cove. I haven't even seen the movie! :rolleyes:

You are crazy.. your post went all over the place. Debito? Racism? Evolution? (which I belief is a scientific fact).. this has nothing to do with the argument. Furthermore, the only one bringing up race is you? Let me say it again... there are JAPANESE people that agree with me and WESTERN people that (stupidly) agree with you. This is NOT about Japan against the West. Evidently very few people in Japan eat Whale or Dolphin anyway.

As I said before Im only concerned with addressing the points you made concerning my points (X Y and Z) of the whaling argument.

I still cant believe that you are having trouble grasping the logic.

I have business with Dolphins because to me they are self aware animals JUST LIKE ME AND YOU. They have the ability to comprehend their own death. Animals that arent self aware feel "emotions" based on pure instinct. Self aware animals not only feel that but recognise their impending doom. A cow or a pig in a field does not apparently.

Let me lay it out for you. I believe that killing animals that are self aware is wrong.

This in itself isnt a logical statement. But if you put it in context within human society then it is the only humane conclusion that one could come to.

And I dont know why you continue to say that Im wrong about the whales and dolphins. Ive given you scientists and links which say Im right. That is good enough for me and the doubts you are casting on such opinion is not very convincing. After all, you gave me a link claiming that is said that "dolphins werent self aware" and when I checked the link it said that a strong argument can be made that they WERE self aware though the tests didnt prove outright. If that is not good enough for you then Im at the point where I think nothing will convince you.

I dont think I said anywhere that dogs werent self aware therefore we should eat them... you are putting words in my mouth.
I can probably give other reasons for why I wouldnt eat dogs. Just like I can give other reasons why I wont eat babies.

When you say that I advocate eating babies and dogs because I dont feel that self aware animals should be killed, let alone eaten then you are making a huge error in logic.

You are absolutely right about one thing. I feel that I am morally superior to the people who support whaling and dolphin hunting. I even feel morally superior to those that eat meat as I rarely eat meat except when Im a guest at someones house etc.

Anyway... I think we've exhausted the directions in which we can go from here concernig whaling and dolphin hunting.

If you want to have a discussion about why I think it is wrong to kill animals that are not self aware then feel free to do so with me.

i will have to disagree with this one. i totally abhor whaling because i got my own personal attachments with dolphins and whales and not because of the japanese people doing such acts. thus; i said before, i take the issue of whaling on a personal note.

the problem with some activists is they tend to generalise the whole scenario, which would normally start from a personal realisation (flipper's suicide as for the cove) and would make it a higher cause. on the other hand, some japanese are quite offended by the documentary because they are being scorned by millions of people for the gruesome slaughter; thereby generalising everyone as racist due to the fact that the naye-sayers are throwing lines such as "your government", "the japanese", "japan" to refer to the culprits. also, the problem with media, when the subject is way too emotional, hyperbola and myopia are often abused just to catch people's attention.

[edit to add]

so there... if you'd like to take the whaling issue as something personal, we can go ahead and talk endlessly about our personal sentiments, as i think this is where the argument is leading to. however, let's also be rational and not point fingers at anyone or any country, as everyone's also at fault here.

ronin it's becoming a pointless argument don't you agree? We're dealing with someone who cannot accept any form of criticism of Japan from any foreigner. Evidently the only people who can comment on or criticise anything about Japan are the Japanese, who are of course completely totally impartial and extremely well informed observers. I mean the media here is just so awesome isn't? :rolleyes:

Any comments made by a foreigner are invalid because none of us could possibly even come close to having the slightest understanding of this incredibly unique and oh so very special culture. One so special that only the Japanese themselves can understand it enough to make any informed opinions. And of course we're all racist anyway. Any comments we make are always tainted by this racism. Even those of us who've chosen to live and raise our families here, we are all still racists too! How dare we ever express views or opinions on this great nation we can never truly understand?

The twists and turns this debate has taken are just so ludicrous!

I mean what a nationalistic nutter!! Quite scary in a way as he's certainly not alone in this sort of thinking...

I agree with you on that GoNative and on mostly everything you posted before.

Its sad that this is being turned into a nationalist feud as I think the sooner this is recognised that for the most part this should have nothing to do with race or nations then we (being people who share my position) can start getting a lot of support in Japan.

Anyway.. I am done for now concerning whaling and dolphins specifically but I will continue with the discussion on to what extent killing animals in general is right or wrong if cranks, or anyone else wishes to pursues it.

... should've been the right path to this argument

There were other arguments I put up against dolphin hunting and whaling though

but yeah.. perhaps you are right.

well if you have some and you are able to justify with sound arguments, then i guess it's gonna be a healthy debate. let the the people judge, which side they're on, or synthesise if they see common grounds. ;)

I am for practical conservationism. It has to be realistic. I don't really care about animal rights beyond unnecessary torture and cruelty.

I come from Nagasaki were whaling been a way of life for centuries. for me, number one its a cultural right. Whale meat is delicious.

Saying that, its not Japan's right to take whales out of international waters. I would like to see that stopped if any is going on. Within coastal waters, Japan should do research on the number of whales it can crop and maintain a healthy breeding population. Also, whale breeding/farming industry should be looked into. agreements must be reached with certain countries about the large migratory species.

A very truthful statement.

But it's a tit-for-tat game that doesn't end in Japans court.

".. [Japan's] propaganda and political spin..", Not very Machiavellian of you considering the rest of your statement.




It must be noted that the common species of ocean dolphins, like those killed in Japan, are not endangered or even close to becoming endangered species. The types of dolphins that are truly in danger of going extinct are the river/freshwater dolphins around the world( In Brazil, China and India ) It is interesting to note that so much time, money, energy and drama was spent to scream attention to Japanese dolphin slaughter when ZERO attention is given to the river dolphins that ARE disappearing. Just google it for your self.

I want to know the basis for your claim that whaling is not Japanese culture. Many Japanese people are saying it is, and in fact, there are regions that have been doing it for centuries. They had been eating whales before they started eating cows and pigs only 160 years ago. Please give me a good reason why I should listen to you over many Japanese natives, myself included.

Just because there is money involved, it doesn't mean it is not culture. Kosher meat is not free either.

Again, what made you the expert on the issue? What do you know about Japanese culture?

Criticisms are fine. Activities by an organization that is banned from the international organization, and "illegal" operation of the activists are not criticism. The producer of The Cove crossed that line. The racism expresses by some activists can not be "criticism" either.

Well, Killing and eating of whales and denying entry of refugees have nothing in common. Plus, if I remember correctly, Australia is a country of immigration. It is more Australian culture to accept them in the first place. I am not saying Aussies are racist. But at the same time, it is a fact there are many racist remarks and behaviors around anti-whaling. I've already shown you the examples. I said this before but I'll say it again. Yes, Japan has a lot of racism too, but "I" NEVER EVER allow that in a group I am associated with. It seems like a lot of people don't have problem with it as long as they themselves are not doing it.

I think it is. It is propagating hatred and racism. And THAT I think is a major issue. For that reason, I was against whaling. Now it seems to me it is clearly anti-whaling side that owes the responsibility for it. That's why now I am anti-anti-whaling.

The thing I see from the somewhat ridiculous argument you are putting forward is an incredible offensiveness and ignorance to Japanese culture. I have repeated again and again and again, that "all life forms are equal" is a "fundamental Japanese cultural value". But you just don't care because you don't understand it. All I am asking is to acknowledge this, and only this, point. I repeated this over and over and over, but I repeat it again. Many Japanese people don't even eat whale. I don't ether. It is the "superiority" that people have problem with. When a majority culture criticize a minority culture, the later WILL be defensive. And It has a reason to be. So I am just asking for more understanding.

You just casually dismissed the racism that clearly exists. I'm actually thinking if I should give up at this point.

Criticisms are OK. But what these people are doing is not criticism. If I look defensive to you, there is a reason for it. You and the activists are being offensive and inconsiderate. Actually, you haven't made many comments yet, so you maybe not. But these activists sure are, and you failed to see that.

Then why can't you understand the very basic idea of 「いただきます」? :rolleyes:You hear a lot of 「牛や豚と鯨でなにが違うんだよ」 from Japanese people, and they are not asking for some scientific facts. The question presented there is "cows and pigs and whales should be respected in the same manner because they all have lives. Why do you distinguish one from others?"

Sorry, double post again. Something is wrong.

Actually, they have, but if you like it concise, I'll make it so. I'm glad you believe in evolution, because quite a lot of people don't...

Yes. few people in Japan eat Whale. Dolphin is even more uncommon. I never had either of them. I repeated so many times, that it is not about they actually want to eat them. It is about the basic principal of 「いただきます」, which IS VERY JAPANESE and is something you kept failing to see the idea of. Sure, there are some anti-whaling Japanese too, I was one before. But anti-whaling activists are very unpopular in Japan nonetheless. Greenpeace is actually losing its members. Down to 5500 from 6000. Anti-Whaling Japanese people almost never say things like you do. Have you asked your friends about how they really feel about your view of "Dolphins are self-aware. So We can't eat them. Pigs aren't, so we can"? What was the response?

You did not present any logic that withstood my counter arguments. According to your logic, it is totally OK to kill and eat dogs. Is that right?

To me, dogs have feelings JUST LIKE ME AND YOU! I understand your feelings. But its always about "TO ME".

Bottlenose dolphins you mean? Then hunting Minkes should be totally OK.

I understand this part. And I respect your belief.

No it is not. You just said I believe. It is your belief and that's what I have been pointing out.

Why?

I never said you were wrong.

I have never said that Bottolenose dolphins don't recognize their optical images in a mirror or mourn about their kins' deaths. I'm just saying that can not be the "logical reason" to be anti-whaling. For a starter, Minke whales and Bottolenose dolphins are as different as giraffes and cows. It is like "giraffes are endangered so we shouldn't eat cows."

The paper clearly said there is a possibility, but they could not prove it. I just brought it up as an example of existing "arguments". If they are still arguing on Bolltenose dolphins, Minke Whales sure won't pass "the test". And honestly, I don't really care if they pass a specific test or not. Dogs are self-aware. Ask any dog owner.

I'm actually not too sure what you are trying to convince me.

No, you didn't. But according to your logic, dogs are not self-aware. And according to your logic, animals that aren't self-aware can be killed and eaten. What do you think of dogs then?

Your logic has been changing. First, you said we can't eat anything that is self-aware. Then, confronted with the babies example, you introduced an exception that babies are different and there are other reasons for them, but self-aware animals can not be eaten. Now, confronted with the dogs example, again, you say dogs are different and there are other reasons for not eating dogs. Every time your "logic" is refuted, you introduce a new exception. That is not logic.

Please present the error.

eh... :rolleyes: think about it. If there is some religious Muslim guy who thinks he is holier than thee, and comes in to your house and preach about what you should and should not do, will you listen to him? Most people will be like "What the? Get the F out of here". This is EXACTLY what's happening regarding whaling and I don't know why you can't see it.

I don't think I have, but yes, what I am talking about, at least the core of it, is not just whaling and dolphin hunting. So either way works for me. Even if I agree to your beliefs, Whaling is OK anyways, because it is only Bottlenose Dolphins that are self-aware by your definition. Minke Whales are OK to be hunted.

Argh, argh, I've been away for a whole week. Too much to catch up on in just one post, but please, please don't think that by 'the slant' i meant a racist slur on you Cranks!:<

It wasn't meant like that at all; in British vernacular a 'slant' is basically whichever side or angle a topic of conversation is aiming towards. I meant that so far the most concern of the debate had been about understanding Japanese views of Dolphin hunting and whaling, and that for a full debate to be enacted, it would have to come back and explore western views of dolphin hunting and whaling. Even if an argument seems flawed, it's still often representative of the reasons why there is a controversy in the first place and worth exploring.

Of course, now I'm not sure if you knew that already and were joking or not! :/

Sure, I was just kidding :)
I had never heard of the expression though. British people are sometimes very idiomatic, which is good, I learnt a new expression. I guess I pushed the slant even further... but oh well.

I'll say one thing about the idiotic morons of SEA SHEPHERD (lefty Sea Sheep) who live in Seattle Washington. They deserve zero support after being caught on video during the Sendai Tsumani of how right it was for the sea to "kill off a few japs." Those idiots can go to hell along with their cause.

As for the dolphins, if the Japanese could prove that slaughtering them was for the purpose of national subsistance, I might feel more sympathy but I don't see any such purpose with what they're doing.

There comes a time when luxury exceeds humanity, it's time for them to stop this.