Geisha --- is it art?
 

having watched a tv programme about geisha's
and following a long and sometimes heated debate with my girl...

i wonder are geisha's REALLY art...or is this a way of patrons justifying spending large sums of money on female company...

yes its a great little snap-shot into life in another time....
...yes it takes a certain amount of work...
...sure the kimono's are very pretty....

but is it ART??

possibly...but if it were then the geisha's themselves would be the art...as aposed to the artist...perhaps the "mother" could be called the artist..

and what i wonder....is art or not....does the popularity of geisha not primarely revolve around the fact that they are pretty dolled up girls?

just wondereing what peoples take on this is...some Jopinions would be nice also

Putting on a kimono and makeup does not make you a geisha. There are years of training and apprenticeship involved in becoming one, and not all that go through it end up becoming a geisha.

Geisha are taught to dance and sing, to play instruments, and to be good conversationalists. The know every nuance of manners, can recognize even the subtlest emotion, and can put their clients into almost any mood of their choosing.

You may not think it an art, but becoming a real geisha takes as much time and effort as getting a university degree. Movies like "Memoirs of a Geisha" are poor examples of exactly what it's like.

But then, becoming a geisha will not make you Japanese. I read that "Sayuki", the first foreign geisha, had her application for permanent residency in Japan denied. Despite the fact that she has lived in Japan since she was 15, and has a doctorate in anthropology from Oxford, and is the foremost foreign expert on many things Japanese (including the geisha lifestyle).

I was lucky enough last year to meet a group of young girls in Asakusa who were apprenticing to become geisha. My girlfriend had an interesting conversation with them, and we took pictures of each other posing with them, it was a lot of fun.

i know there is ALOT of work involved...

but i wonder if it is ART...

sure its AN art...but the dance's are all very rigid...there is no room for expression....

for me...art is about expressing emotion...a genuine emotion...but for geisha...its about supressing her own emotion....

if someone play's a piece of music...you can hear if they are happy or sad from the way they play it...but with geisha dance etc. it is alway's the same....

to me....it is almost like geisha is moving statue

but the geisha has NO IMPUT on her performance...

the TEA ceremony...is the TEA ceremony....it HAS to be done in a certain exact way....

an ARTIST....is creative...i see nothing that the geisha's do as creative..

correct me if i am wrong

there is a difference between AN art...and art.

you have posted the defenition of AN art....art itself...is about the expression of information, emotions and idea's....

i dont see that happeneing with Geshia...i dont see them expressing ANY poart of themselves......

thats why i question wheather it is art...

hmmm you are talking to someone with an intrinsic knowledge of art here boyo.....trust me on that...damien hurst...i was going to exclusive gallery openings BEFORE he was big....

im not saying that geshia is not a work of art
or that the art of the geshia is not AN art...

but is the geshia herself an ARTIST??

no...she does not CREATE anything....

and there is a BIG deifference between something that is AN art...and ART

you can say:
the art of conversation...so is everybody who can talk therefore an artist?

meh...no they are not.

with regards to geshia it is a grey zone....but again is it not more the Female companionship...and the Status symbol of the geisha that apeals to MEN?

geshia's are expensive..and look pretty...just like jewlery....

is the gold bracelet the artist...or the artisan who made it the artist...

the geshia are like objects....moulded by the "mother"...

so perhaps one could say the "mother" is the artist...and the Miko's and servant girls are but blank canvases


hmmmm yes an upside down skateboard could be art...and....so can an upright skateboard...and what about a skateboard that is not even there in the first place??

im a big fan of instelation art

art is about the message...

and if geshia is compared to renaisance art....would hostess bar be modern art???

you can call ANYTHING you want...."art"

but there is a big difference between good art...and bad art

take the campbells soup tin print....why was that SO amazing...

because of the message BEHIND it....

15 yr old girls.....yes pretty much blank canvass.....not quite...but thier time as Servant girl certainly makes them so....then "mother" paints HER ideas upon the miko.....also your taking a metaphor literally there laddy-boy

I think "mother" is artist...Geisha...is canvass

but i'm not trying to talk about the nature of art....i already have a full understanding of art....

i am trying to acertain what the status as ART geisha is...because its complex...

clearly..singin dancing..tea ceremony..coul;d be grouped under
"the arts"...but its the complete lack of creative imput that makes it an interesting position

indeed...

but would you go as far as calling the geshia an artist?

because geshia patrons like to call themselves...patrons of the arts...

is that really the case?

if you PAY for a geshia....are you supporting the J-art scene....or getting a couple of pretty dolled up girls to massage your ego?

surly art is all about new ideas?
in geshia...there are no knew ideas...just the old ones...

also would by your definition a Hostess not be just as much art as a geshia??
yet hosstess bar customers don't consider themselves patrons of the arts...

I'm not going to get involved in this conversation because you seem to want it to be incredibly one sided. I can just say you're looking at the whole thing the wrong way.

and please, PLEASE stop typing like you have Tourette's.

im seeing it in one way?

please expand...

but please understand that the nature of art.....is subjective...

i started this thread for 2 reasons

1. geshia's have NO creative imput....yet what they do is called art...and while what they do IS art...they themselves are not ARTISTS

for someone who knows a bit about art...this is quite an intersting combination...and one that draws many questions....
what is it to be an artist?
what is it to be creative?

2. geshia's are all cute girls.....this cannot be ignored!...there is clearly something more to it than JUST art.

art is a subjective topic...thus at times....its worth exploring ideas or asking questions that draw towards a certain extreme...this is to validify what one believes...

Is Geisha an artist? Yes, I believe so.
A Geisha must know to dance (which is art), to sing (which is art), play instruments (which is art), know the tea ceremony (which is also art). All of these skills are a part of Geishas primary art - the art to entertain and comfort men.

Let me put it this way: If Marilyn Manson made an only song in his carrier and that song would be his own version of 'Sweet Dreams (Are made of this)' which was originally made by the Eurythmics. You would still call him an artist, even if it's the same song.

The same thing goes with Geisha. Even if there are no new ideas, and just old ones, they are still artists, because every Geisha sings the same song differently, dances the same old dance differently, talks about the same topic differently.

If you haven't realized, you just agreed with the fact that geisha is art, because a statue (no matter what kind it is) is a form of art.

I think Geisha is a art. You have to study and work hard to become one. They study music and dance and whatnot and when they perform, there intereprting emotions and thoughts through dance. So I believe it is a art.

hmmm but mr manson CHANGES the song...its a cover...almost completely different to the original...

but with geshia its EXACTLY the same dance and song as has been sung and danced for many years...

to be a plumber requires one to learn a skill for a long time....

infact a Plumber has MORE creative imput than a geshia...yet you wouldn't call a plumber an artist...or would you?

erm a plumber unplugs sinks and toilets, hardly a art. nothing really to plumbing, anyone could go for it. But geishas do the same dance to express a message, it is a tradition. It is a historical art. In high schools they do Romeo And Juliet, probably one of the most famous plays in the world, it is also a historical art because many people have played the parts, but they have each done the part in their own way yet following the traditions. Geisha girls do that also. They put a little something of their own in the dance, whether you see it or not.

ok first...a plumber does MORE than plugs and sinks....

he is the ARCHITECT of your gas, water and heating systems

.....

yes geshia's do a dance to express a message.....but they have no INPUT on that message....
with Romeo and Juliet you are free to interpret the play however YOU see fit.... thus no two perfomances of the play will be the same...

however in geshia dance...there is no room for being creative...every muscle movement is carefully choreographed......there is NO creative imput from the geshia on the dance....

what they are doing is artisitc.....but i do not think that the geshia themselves...can be described as artists..."mother" perhaps....

i am hoping to be convinced otherwise...but so far have not

You are right about the plumbers, what I was trying to say though, anyone could do it. Geisha is special though. There are specific terms in order to be a geisha. OKay fine, let's just say I will go with you on saying the performers are not a art. But you agree the movements of geisha and the dance are a art correct? So geisha is a tradition and these girls are following it specifically, though they are not art? To me, that doesn't make sense. If your performing a tradition, you are becoming art with your movments and the way your doing it. Am I making any sense?

perhaps a good way to look at it is:

geshia is like a living painting...painted by a painter long dead...and probably forgotten by most.

...the geshia herself becomes the art....but she does not have ANY influence on what kind of art she becomes...this has all been decided for her WELL in advanced...

as for who can become a geshia...ANYONE....who is female....its not that hard

I see you didn't fully understand what I meant. Yes, of course he changed it, and it sounds differently, different tone and rhythm, but it's still the same song with same words in it.

It's the same with Geishas, yes maybe they sing the same song, but each Geisha has a different voice, and sings it differently.
Besides, I bet you haven't seen a live Geishas performance, so can you say that they all sing and dance exactly the same way like it was done centuries ago. You have nothing to compare with.

Actually no. You don't need a lot of skill to be a plumber. I know it because I there was a time when I worked as a plumbers assistant.

To become a Geisha requires a lot more time, patience and effort than to become a plumber. Everyone can become a plumber but not everyone can become a Geisha.

Yes I would call a plumber an artist. A plumbers job doesn't end with just unplugging sinks and toilets, but also the creativity in designing a best way to connect pipes in the bathrooms, kitchens and toilets so that water could stream easy. So the way a plumber designs in every house could be considered a weird form of art.

i have seen geshia perform..all be it not live....

have YOU seen geshia perform live?

i think you misunderstand the purpose of this thread....

its not to degrade geshia....

but it is simply to ask the question....what are they....

one cannot call them ARTISTS...... but it is also wrong to say that waht they do....dancing, singing, make tea...[is not] is AN art...

its a grey zone....

also ANYONE can be geshia.....its not that hard....sure its a skill...but everyone can do it....there are many things that NOT everyone can do...geshia is not one of them.

I disagree. To be a geisha, you have to have the talent, body coordinates, hardwork ethic, and lots of practice. Not everyone can remember the movements or the tradition, it is hard. They are a art, entertaining with a old tradition. So No, not just "anyone" can do, it is like indian dancing, they have hand movements for the sun and the moon and others, and if you do it wrong you look horrible. Not everyone can move their body like that and be graceful and beautiful as a geisha girl.

Videos: YouTube - Geisha dance

YouTube - Traditional Geisha Dance

YouTube - Geisha Fan Dance

Geisha Dances ^

Is not "art" something that is meant to create an emotion within the viewer?

It's like the "modern" art, that people pay thousands for, when all it is is basically a child drawing a fish, or someone throwing a paint can on a canvas.

Those are considered art, are they not?

The art of the Geisha entertains and comforts men, it brings out emotions of happiness and contentment.

Therefor, it can be considered an art.

Now, YOUR definitions of art may vary, as do mine (I don't consider the modern crap art, personally), but that's my viewpoint on the matter.

Geisha is definately an art.
The makeup and the outfits are so precisely done, it'd be crazy for it not to be.
And the dancing takes a long time to master.

Thank you! Altaru, You, JoshAussie,and Aniki are all correct. Geisha is a art, I still don't get why Alpha believes the actual geishas themselves aren't art, yet there performing and interperting art? :confused:

the #1 objective of geshia is to entertain men...

that they do this by singing, dancing, etc. is one thing...

but it is still for the entertainment of men....

thus would you call stripping art?
or prostitution art?

could you call a prostitute an artist?

also the geshia has NO ROOM for interpretation...its all very fixed...
a prostitute or stripper has complete creative control...

is it culture..yes
but if i hire a geshia (by the hour no less) can i say...
"ooo i'm going to see some art?"
and if so
can i go to a strip club and say the same thing?

how different are hostess from geshia?
both seek to entertain men without sex...
as does a stripper...

yet having sex for money...or getting naked for money....does that make you an ARTIST?

yes..art is mostly in the eye of the beholder....
and thus art...does not even NEED an artist...

i think amuchan you missunderstand what im getting at...

i think josh has a fair idea...

im trying to EXPLORE where this really stands...

you could describe the geshia as a work of art.....but i FEEL that it would be a bit of a stretch to describe geshia as an artist...

can you really put a girl who looks pretty and entertains men in the same class as Da Vinci? or Rembrant? or Jimi Hendrix?
those are without a shadow of a doubt not just artists...but GREAT artists...
could you ever describe any geshia as a Great artist?....seeing as she does not have ANY creative imput on what she does?

yes dancing, singing is AN art...but all the geshia is REALLY doing....is doing what she is told...towing the line of conformity....

if i sing in the shower...or dance in a club...does that make me an artist?

Basically, a geisha and a hostess are the same, just as Van Gogh an Joe the house painter are the same.

A hostess does not have to learn to dance or sing, she does not have to know how to play any instruments. She doesn't have to understand the differences between different schools of poetry or calligraphy. And she doesn't have to possess the knowledge to converse with her clients intelligently. All a hostess has to do is to convince her client to get progressively more and more drunk, preferably by buying the most expensive drinks the bar has to offer.

There is no set of exact rules for the tea ceremony, or any of the other things which a geisha learns. They are supposed to be adaptable, as nature is. Each has a different style, or a different method, depending on the tastes of her client.

I forgot who this was, I'm sorry for wasting my time.

In my opinion what makes art is entirely subjective. Art is something that supposed to promote an emotional response towards that subject - sometimes, this is based on your own personal experiances which you don't always share with anybody else. If someone thinks that being a Geisha is a form of art, then to them it is. You can't just decide one day you want to be a Geisha though, it does take training. I think Geisha's are a lot more artistic than some of the modern 'art' that I've seen in galleries.

i think what you said about Goths and Punks being walking works of art is a REALLY good point

i think also that to call a geshia a walking peice of artwork is correct...

i did not know that geshia is geshia ALL the time....
that must be quite restricting...

SO if the geshia is the walking work of art....

who is the artist?

hmm i would say the first could be the artist....

but the makeup etc...is all decided FOR the geshia...

so i would not call her an artist.....

the girl is the canvass...the geshia is the art....

As i know Geisha was first only as an entertainer lady for the Japan soldier. As for it's culture (unique make up, skill of traditional music, etc), now in this modern life it become art, but without "entertaining" stuff, some still.

Disagree, what they learned and perform is a form of art. If music and dance is an art, then the geisha is a form of art... they way they dress, and makeup may not be out of their own hand. But all the stuff they do to entertain a customer IS a form of art performed by themselves through a lot of demanding training

That is illogical. If the person's art (in this case makeup) is decided for them then they who practice it are not artists?!?! Then most musicians are not artists because they perform the works of other composers. A painter who uses the same canvas, paints and technique is not an artist, only the first to do so was. That is ridiculous.

The Geisha is an artist. An visual artist in her appearance, as much of an artist of movement as a ballerina in her practiced walk, posture, and practices while serving, and a musical artist in her preformance of any signing or playing of instruments (which they are trained to do as well), and most importantly an artist in making others relax and enjoy their time with them. If you were ever required by your profession to entertain a businessman that you had no connection with (or maybe even disliked) you would know what truly artistic skill is required to keep them relaxed and entertained through an evening with his colleagues.

To me a Geisha is an artist of the highest calibre.

The lack of understanding of geisha really bothers me. Probably because one did a little research..... They are highly trained artisans of dance, and vocal and instrumental music. Not only that, but Geisha are the very few people alive who keep old traditions of song and dance alive. What's not "gei" or artisitc about it. Is a classical musician not an artist?

What people of this generation do not understand is that art isnot about ejaculting your personal feelings on a canva. It's not about masturbating 1000 miles-per-hour on an electric guitar. Art should encomass a more universal message to that all people can connect with because we all share in the human experience. The post-modern whatever-I-feel-goes is waning. Classical painters who can actually paint and who have honed a skill are making a come-back.

As a classical and flemanco guitar player, I can tell you that a simple song could take a few years to understand, memorize and then learn to play properly.

Geisha is not about make-up. Look deeper.

Definitely an art for me because the way they look and as we all know, Geisha is a part of the history of Japan that classifies japanese women as "classic dancers".

but geisha is ULTIMATLY about ENTERTAINING MEN...

if you want to see a REALLY good singer....its not going to be a geisha

if you want to see a REALLY good muscian....its not going to be a geshia

if you want to see a REALLY good dancer.....its not going to be a geshia

BUT...if you want to experience a bit of culture...and want to drink with some pretty girls who are all dolled up and laugh at all your jokes....and you dont want to go to a hostess bar because that seems a little bit too common for you....

THEN your gonna see a geshia.


as for entertaining people is it an art....

NO...its called social skills

You're an idiot... define art.

I'll help you....

define:art - Google Search

oh FFS....

perhaps i should re-phrase the question....as all but josh-aussie managed to misunderstand

geshia in my eye's is nothing more than a Pay-per-View Floozy

this is because singing and dancing aside....the PRIMARY purpose of a geshia...is to ENTERTAIN MEN....

NO ONE who wants to be an artist...decides to be a Geshia now do they?
because being an artist is all about FREEDOM...

sure there may be art involved....

but would you really say that a geshia is an artist FIRST and then an entertainer of men?

or that she is an entertainer of men...who's primary goal is to keep men entertained and that one way she does this is by singing a bit, and doing a bit of traditional dancing...

so pay-per-view floozy first...non creative artist second.

When you pay 8 dollars for a movie ticket to see a movie by Angelina Jolie, does it make her a pay per view artist as well?

Freedom is not something that to be judged, geisha is not a forced profession, people participating in it are well aware of the TRADITION and CULTURE of being a geisha.

You really need to understand respect ones culture more before making comments like that