native speakers teaching

[evanny]

what do you think about native speakers teaching their own language to foreigners?
i know some of you here do or have done it.
well, i personally think it is a bad idea.
i wouldn't teach my native language if i was offered to. i would do far better if it was english, russian or even japanese - and my japanese at the moment is next to nothing.
well here are the points that prevent native teachers from being as good as non-native, especially when teaching beginners. for advanced english natives of course have the upper hand.

1. every native speaker speaks incorrectly. i speak incorrect lativan, my teacher (who was considered to be very good) did also. that is just the way it is.
2. it is harder for a native speaker to explain the language to a foreign student. also native speaker will let more mistakes pass by because in conversational language it is fine to "butcher" the language to some degree while non-native teacher will pick on it faster.
3. methods of teaching for a non-native speaker usually will be more efficient because he/she already knows how it is done thus possibly a better connection between the student and the teacher.

what do you think? and please if you are a native teacher, don't be offended. i simply think this is an interesting topic and i feel like i have provided some decent arguments.
thanks

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by evanny

what do you think about native speakers teaching their own language to foreigners?
i know some of you here do or have done it.
well, i personally think it is a bad idea.
i wouldn't teach my native language if i was offered to. i would do far better if it was english, russian or even japanese - and my japanese at the moment is next to nothing.
well here are the points that prevent native teachers from being as good as non-native, especially when teaching beginners. for advanced english natives of course have the upper hand.

1. every native speaker speaks incorrectly. i speak incorrect lativan, my teacher (who was considered to be very good) did also. that is just the way it is.
2. it is harder for a native speaker to explain the language to a foreign student. also native speaker will let more mistakes pass by because in conversational language it is fine to "butcher" the language to some degree while non-native teacher will pick on it faster.
3. methods of teaching for a non-native speaker usually will be more efficient because he/she already knows how it is done thus possibly a better connection between the student and the teacher.

what do you think? and please if you are a native teacher, don't be offended. i simply think this is an interesting topic and i feel like i have provided some decent arguments.
thanks

Native teachers are desired because they teach English "conversation". All Japanese students study English in junior high school/high school, so they already have a basic understanding of grammar, reading, and writing. But, in the school systems, they get very little practice listening and speaking.

Japanese students of English are interested in learning "spoken" English, as it is used in the real world, and native speakers are obviously the ones to teach spoken-English. Native speakers also use more-or-less correct accent and intonation, something which non-native speakers have trouble with.

And, not all native-speakers of English have trouble speaking their language correctly. For those who come to Japan to teach, they have to undergo an interview process in which their English speaking ability is tested, not to mention rather difficult writing and grammar tests.

[steven]

I totally disagree with you.

1. How can a native speaker speak incorrectly? I speak American English (as a native), therefore I am American English. Sure there might be some idiosyncrasies to my version of English, but I'm sure they're far better than a foreigner's. Besides, I've never seen a foreigner speak English 100% correctly. I've seen some people who are extremely close, but there is always something that sticks out like a sore thumb.

2. I think your first statement depends heavily on the native. You say native speakers will let more mistakes go because it's fine to buther a language- I say foreign speakers will let mistakes go because they can't tell the difference a lot of the time. I'm also inclined to believe that a native speaker will pick up on mistakes faster than a non native. Sure they might just say "it feels weird"... but at least they feel it. If the native teacher is a good teacher, they'll know how to explain why it feels weird.

3. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I have a feeling it has something to do with empathy, however.

For the record, I think this is indeed a very interesting topic. I think that it isn't so black and white though. I think that it depends on the quality of the native or non native teacher. Certainly a non native teacher would be a better teacher than a native who hasn't really taken the time to think about teaching their langauge before. However, who's to say that non-native teacher is any good at the language they're teaching? I think it goes both ways. I also think that teaching goes beyond the course material. While a strong grasp on the course material will serve as a source of inspiration to continue for a student, I think a so-so (in terms of knowledge) teacher who knows how to talk to their students is better than some know-it-all type.

Edit: Sangetsu brought up some excellent points on the situation in Japan. I'd like to add to that however (or possibly subtract). I believe that a lot of time native speakers are used completely innefficiently. You get foreigners who come here and just follow whatever script their superiors hand them. Just tonight I went to a photo machine and clicked on the "English" button for kicks (it had the Union Jack as the button by the way). Subsequently a native American English voice started talking. At one point it said "After you have finished taking photo...". Obviously a native speaker wouldn't say it that way... but the voice was without a doubt native. I see stuff like that all the time. It's unfortunate, but I think that is an example of a native going to waste in Japan. I think that very same thing goes on in class rooms all the time (somewhat butchered/unnatural grammar because it's part of the 'lesson' or hyper-pronunciation... like absolutely no flow and/or consonants that are too harsh).

[WingsToDiscovery]

I'm not an English teacher in Japan, but my spoken English is much more academically advanced than even most native American English speakers, so even to them I sometimes alienate myself for "speaking too properly" as they say. This makes it even more of a pain when I'm helping my Japanese friends study (I normally just go over questions they have and practice conversation for free during my lunch break). I find that it's harder to work with them because in my mind I'm constantly thinking "This is what I would say, but how can I make this easier/more appropriate?" because I'm trying to help them with conversational English, but as I said, even the way I talk can be different from other native speakers.

As far as the actual job goes, I wouldn't want to teach in Japan anyway unless I had to. Most of the people there are crooks with non-education based degrees who don't care about the students and just wanted a ticket into Japan. I don't want to work with those kinds of people.

[evanny]

steven. yes. native speakers can and do speak incorrectly. if they didn't there wouldn't be a need for a class in the native language.
when a native speaks he knows that the other native or even non native partners will understand him without realizing how grammatically incorrect he might be.. i'm talking about the "correct" way.

my friend is studying at Birmingham university for the 3rd year. plenty of native speakers give her their essays for correction. she even was shocked about how many mistakes in expressions and grammar (specially mixing up times) they made.

i'll stress it again. i am talking about proper english and which one is better suited to teach it. native or non-native.
P.S this isn't aimed just at Japan but also in language teaching in general - spanish, french etc.

[RealJames]

I agree that native speakers do make technical mistakes very often.
One example is can-may, "can I go to the bathroom?".

Conversely, the English that most students want to learn is the English that is spoken, not the English that is technically correct.

A good teacher does, however, know the difference between technically correct, and correct by popular vote, and imparts that knowledge and distinction to their pupil.

[KyleGoetz]

I guarantee you that I was a better English teacher than any native could possibly be. End of story.

First of all, educated teachers do not make mistakes (maybe a few, but they will make far fewer than a non-native, guaranteed). Just like when I'm in professional conversations now, I can shift my speech patterns by situation. I can switch off the "mistakes" (they're not mistakes; they're "non-standard" English) quite easily when I need to.

2. We learn English grammar in junior high the exact same way a non-native learned English. We learn all about subjunctive, prepositional rules, the tenses of English along with their names and such, etc. Just many forget them. The good English teachers will bring this knowledge along with a native's ability to use the rules. I guarantee you I (and almost all educated natives) have an impossibly better grasp of lexical nuance than a non-native can ever hope to achieve.

You may be right on #3. But in this case, the only person equipped to correct it in the way you say is someone who has the same native language as the student. So, in one case, only a native Japanese teaching English would be able to recognize the reasons for a certain error in a Japanese student's English. A Russian-born teaching English would not know why the mistake is being made unless he also speaks Japanese very well.

Regardless, I would never trade any of my four years with native Japanese instructors for anyone else.

[evanny]

KyleGoetz, good points. thanks.

but don't you think a non-native can achieve "native like" levels of speaking? i think for that to happen simply the environment has to change. give an educated person who takes in new things easily 5 or even 10 years in desired language's society and there won't be anyone left to tell whether or not the person is native.

don't you think?

however this also presents the problem - the person might start making native speaking average Joe's mistakes because of that. well if not paying close attention the whole time.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by evanny

KyleGoetz, good points. thanks.

but don't you think a non-native can achieve "native like" levels of speaking? i think for that to happen simply the environment has to change. give an educated person who takes in new things easily 5 or even 10 years in desired language's society and there won't be anyone left to tell whether or not the person is native.

don't you think?

Native like, but not to the point where they can achieve my ability to explain the difference between certain high-level words. Or I'll put it another way: the non-natives who can achieve something remotely like what I as an educated native can do would not be affordable. In any case, there is a reason the best universities in the world have native speakers teaching the languages rather than non-natives.

however this also presents the problem - the person might start making native speaking average Joe's mistakes because of that. well if not paying close attention the whole time.

And you think non-natives make fewer mistakes while speaking than natives? That's pretty much by definition impossible.

[RealJames]

I think there's a big of an unfair comparison between trained non-native teachers versus untrained native teachers.

Anyone who is trained will be better regardless.

If we are talking about trained native and a trained non-native speakers, it's an entirely different story.

I am perfectly aware of my idiosyncrasies and colloquialisms and improper tense usages etc.

Another important factor is accent.

I, very simply, would never want to learn conversational Japanese from a non native Japanese speaker, hell I wouldn't even want to learn it from someone in Tohoku!

I believe it's entirely sensible for a student to pick and choose the nationality of a teacher based on which accent they want to be more familiar with.

If a student likes the sound of a British accent, then an American teacher is just as improper as a Polish person with native English levels.

It could be argued that someone wants to learn English with a non-English accent, but I've never encountered that, not once.