正しい街 by 椎名林檎

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by languagehacker

Thanks for all your help. You can disregard the previous message as I've already uploaded my translation. This was the toughest song I've ever tried to translate.

My translation can be seen here:
YouTube - ‪Shiina Ringo - Tadashii Machi / "The Right Town" (subtitled) 【HD】‬‏

Do you think that you could look at it and tell me what you think? One part that's on my mind is in the beginning when I wrote "uncomfortable smile." I was thinking of writing "unhappy smile" instead. The other thing that I'm thinking about changing is where I wrote, "Little lies strung together filled our days." I think that "Little lies strung together were exchanged for a big lie" might be better. If you have a Youtube account, then it would be nice if you could tell me what you think over where my video is. If not, here is also fine.

I have read your translation and I really want to commend you for your fine job. It has enabled me to understand the lyrics on a higher level though this may sound strange to you.

Regarding 「不愉快な笑みを」 , either adjective you mentioned would work. The one I had in mind was "displeasing". I agree with you on the big lie part. Another thing I noticed and thought to tell you is that 「人」 is very often used to mean "men" or "women", instead of "people", in song lyrics.

Last thing I want to mention although I can be wrong is about the airport that appears towards the end. Until now, I had always thought it was referring to the airport in Fukuoka. I am almost convinced now that it would be Tokyo. According to Wiki, Shiina goes to England in 1997. I feel it would make more sense if she was talking about going REALLY far away from her right town and right guy.

[languagehacker]

Originally Posted by masaegu

I have read your translation and I really want to commend you for your fine job. It has enabled me to understand the lyrics on a higher level though this may sound strange to you.

Thank you. Actually it's not that strange, as I have been thinking about this as well. In my translations I have to add things like subjects and objects of sentences. I need to make things sufficiently clear to non-Japanese speakers so that they can understand the story. They're already experiencing some sense of confusion by hearing a language they do not understand. Metaphors like 赤い糸 that they will never be able to figure out have to be clarified, so for me this is a normal part of translation. The reader has less options to consider so it is easier for them to use their brain to connect the dots and make sense of the story instead of wondering what every line is really talking about. When I remove some of the mystery behind the lyrics, it allows you to notice new things. I think this is what happened to you.

You're the first Japanese person to actually say this though, and I'm glad you did. From English speakers sometimes I get things like, "Wow, I really liked this song before, but now that I understand it, I absolutely love it!" (I had another Youtube channel with about 15 translated videos before, but it was taken down by Sony.) Seeing these kinds of reactions is part of what makes doing these translations rewarding for me.

Regarding 「不愉快な笑みを」 , either adjective you mentioned would work. The one I had in mind was "displeasing". I agree with you on the big lie part. Another thing I noticed and thought to tell you is that 「人」 is very often used to mean "men" or "women", instead of "people", in song lyrics.

So you think that by writing かわいい人 she meant "cute girls?" Why would she have used 人 and not 女?

I'm starting to think that 短い嘘を繋げ 赤いものに替えて means something like "Little lies were replacing our connection to each other." What do you think?

Last thing I want to mention although I can be wrong is about the airport that appears towards the end. Until now, I had always thought it was referring to the airport in Fukuoka. I am almost convinced now that it would be Tokyo. According to Wiki, Shiina goes to England in 1997. I feel it would make more sense if she was talking about going REALLY far away from her right town and right guy.

What you say about the airport seems to kind of agree with this paragraph I found from the analysis here:
殆ど必然的のような訪れる破局。都会に出た主人公に徐 々にわかってくるのは、「都会では冬の匂いも正しくな い」という、理念よりももっともっと根源的で生理的で 動物的で素朴な感覚のズレ。でも、それが分かってもも う今更どうしようもない。イキオイがついたまま更に突 っ走って海外にでもいくのでしょう。本当は今でも好き な、そして確かに愛してくれているだろう彼に、せめて 最後だけでも空港で会いたい。だけど、どの面さげてそ んなこと言えるかという。そのせめぎあい。この曲のリ アルタイムは日本の最後の夜。明日になれば大きな崖か ら飛び降り、さらに取り返しのつかない遠くにいってし まうという夜。ある意味では死刑執行前夜のような崖っ ぷちでの反芻と煩悶。（これ、「空港」というのが国内 線かもしれないけど、文脈上それは無いでしょう）。

I don't get those last lines of the paragraph. It says something about the last night and jumping off a cliff. What's that about? It seems important but I don't quite understand it.

Another person translated 明日の空港に 最後でも来てなんてとても云えない as "I know I can’t tell you to take me to the airport tomorrow even for the last time." Does this sound right to you? It seems to be if the airport is all the way in Tokyo. It doesn't make sense that they should go all the way to Tokyo separately.

I think I'm really close to the final version of this translation. Hopefully it will be finished within the next 24 hours. I'm talking to other people about it, but if you can respond to this message, it could speed up the process, and result in a better translation. I made a lot of subtle changes to the translation in the video that I showed you before, and the new version can be seen here: YouTube - ‪Shiina Ringo - Tadashii Machi / "The Right Town" (subtitled) 【HD】‬‏

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by languagehacker

Thank you. Actually it's not that strange, as I have been thinking about this as well. In my translations I have to add things like subjects and objects of sentences. I need to make things sufficiently clear to non-Japanese speakers so that they can understand the story. They're already experiencing some sense of confusion by hearing a language they do not understand. Metaphors like 赤い糸 that they will never be able to figure out have to be clarified, so for me this is a normal part of translation. The reader has less options to consider so it is easier for them to use their brain to connect the dots and make sense of the story instead of wondering what every line is really talking about. When I remove some of the mystery behind the lyrics, it allows you to notice new things. I think this is what happened to you.

You're the first Japanese person to actually say this though, and I'm glad you did. From English speakers sometimes I get things like, "Wow, I really liked this song before, but now that I understand it, I absolutely love it!" (I had another Youtube channel with about 15 translated videos before, but it was taken down by Sony.) Seeing these kinds of reactions is part of what makes doing these translations rewarding for me.

This is a thought-provoking point that I feel is one of the reasons why studying foreign languages can make one a better and more insightful person. It almost gives you a sixth sense, or a third eye, so to speak. I think that native speakers of any language would tend to think they know more about their language than those who are studying it as a foreign language. While this may be true in some areas of language, I think that there is an area where advanced non-native speakers may have an advantage for being able to analyze in a more objective manner.

So you think that by writing かわいい人 she meant "cute girls?" Why would she have used 人 and not 女?

I'm starting to think that 短い嘘を繋げ 赤いものに替えて means something like "Little lies were replacing our connection to each other." What do you think?

かわいい人 would definitely mean "cute girls" there. "Pretty girls" would be closer in nuance. In novels and song lyrics, many writers use 女 or 男 and let you read them as ひと by proving furigana. おんな has the connotation of "broads", so it is not very often used in real life or creative writing.

I am stunned by the line "Little lies were replacing our connection to each other." How do you do it!?

What you say about the airport seems to kind of agree with this paragraph I found from the analysis here:
殆ど必然的のような訪れる破局。都会に出た主人公に徐 々にわかってくるのは、「都会では冬の匂いも正しくな い」という、理念よりももっともっと根源的で生理的で 動物的で素朴な感覚のズレ。でも、それが分かってもも う今更どうしようもない。イキオイがついたまま更に突 っ走って海外にでもいくのでしょう。本当は今でも好き な、そして確かに愛してくれているだろう彼に、せめて 最後だけでも空港で会いたい。だけど、どの面さげてそ んなこと言えるかという。そのせめぎあい。この曲のリ アルタイムは日本の最後の夜。明日になれば大きな崖か ら飛び降り、さらに取り返しのつかない遠くにいってし まうという夜。ある意味では死刑執行前夜のような崖っ ぷちでの反芻と煩悶。（これ、「空港」というのが国内 線かもしれないけど、文脈上それは無いでしょう）。

I don't get those last lines of the paragraph. It says something about the last night and jumping off a cliff. What's that about? It seems important but I don't quite understand it.

Another person translated 明日の空港に 最後でも来てなんてとても云えない as "I know I can’t tell you to take me to the airport tomorrow even for the last time." Does this sound right to you? It seems to be if the airport is all the way in Tokyo. It doesn't make sense that they should go all the way to Tokyo separately.

It says that she wants to see him on her last day in Japan. She is flying to a place far away enough to give her an image of jumping off the cliff (so to speak) for her irrevocable mistake (of leaving the country and her love). It is like the rumination and anguish the night before execution. It also says "From the context, it is difficult to imagine this would be a domestic flight."

No. That "another person's" translation is horrible. You know that, dontcha? Shiina is in Tokyo and the guy in Fukuoka. 来てなんてとても云えない means "I am in position to ask him to come."

[languagehacker]

Originally Posted by masaegu

This is a thought-provoking point that I feel is one of the reasons why studying foreign languages can make one a better and more insightful person. It almost gives you a sixth sense, or a third eye, so to speak. I think that native speakers of any language would tend to think they know more about their language than those who are studying it as a foreign language. While this may be true in some areas of language, I think that there is an area where advanced non-native speakers may have an advantage for being able to analyze in a more objective manner.

Agreed. When I started learning Japanese, I looked at it like I was installing a new operating system into my brain. Learning a language is useful in ways that are not obviously related to language. Just look at Noam Chomsky.

かわいい人 would definitely mean "cute girls" there. "Pretty girls" would be closer in nuance. In novels and song lyrics, many writers use 女 or 男 and let you read them as ひと by proving furigana. おんな has the connotation of "broads", so it is not very often used in real life or creative writing.

Thanks, I learned something new!

I am stunned by the line "Little lies were replacing our connection to each other." How do you do it!?

Glad to hear it had an impact on you!
If the original Japanese is something metaphorical and I have to think really long and hard about what it means and how to capture all of its meaning in the translation, then something like that can result.

I've always liked saying things that have an impact on people. In middle school, high school, and college I would get in trouble for it, and I've been banned in many forums on the Internet for it countless times as well. I think I've found a way to do it again without getting in trouble. The only thing I have to worry about is some companies like Sony who don't want their videos put up on Youtube.

It says that she wants to see him on her last day in Japan. She is flying to a place far away enough to give her an image of jumping off the cliff (so to speak) for her irrevocable mistake (of leaving the country and her love). It is like the rumination and anguish the night before execution. It also says "From the context, it is difficult to imagine this would be a domestic flight."

No. That "another person's" translation is horrible. You know that, dontcha? Shiina is in Tokyo and the guy in Fukuoka. 来てなんてとても云えない means "I am in position to ask him to come."

So does that mean that after coming back and visiting him, she went back to the airport by herself, but didn't leave immediately? It might make sense if she visited him and then left that town to stay in a hotel or somewhere for a few days before finally leaving on an airplane.

Something else came up:

さよならを告げた あの日の唇が一年後
どういう気持ちで いまあたしにキスをしてくれたのかな

I originally thought this was talking about her wondering how it would feel to her to be kissed, but this is actually saying that she wonder how her boyfriend feels to kiss her, isn't it?

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by languagehacker

So does that mean that after coming back and visiting him, she went back to the airport by herself, but didn't leave immediately? It might make sense if she visited him and then left that town to stay in a hotel or somewhere for a few days before finally leaving on an airplane.

Something else came up:

さよならを告げた あの日の唇が一年後
どういう気持ちで いまあたしにキスをしてくれたのかな

I originally thought this was talking about her wondering how it would feel to her to be kissed, but this is actually saying that she wonder how her boyfriend feels to kiss her, isn't it?

There is no mention of that in the lyrics. I am just assuming that she stayed with her family during that stay (probably just for a few days), said good-bye to the guy and others and she is now being unable to ask him to come to the airport tomorrow. I can sort of sense that deep inside, she would have wanted him to ask her not to go. Deep inside, she doesn't sound like she is willing to go abroad but she is accepting it as a punishment on herself for al that she had done to him.

To take that part literally, yes, she is wondering how he feels. To me, it sounds as if she knew she still loved him, so all she needed to know was how he felt about her, yet the circumstances (what she has done to him and the fact she is going far away) did not allow her to ask.

[languagehacker]

So when she came back, he actually did kiss her, correct? She's not wondering what it would feel for him to kiss her, he already kissed her, and she's wondering how it felt to him, right?

Would it have been possible to use a different word than 人 for かわいい人 if she wanted to specify gender, like say, かわいい子? What's the point of using 人 in place of 男?

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by languagehacker

So when she came back, he actually did kiss her, correct? She's not wondering what it would feel for him to kiss her, he already kissed her, and she's wondering how it felt to him, right?

Right. That is my take at least. If she is saying something like 「どういう気持でいまあたしにキスをしてくれたのかな 」 in her daydream, it would forever be impossible to understand her lyrics.

Would it have been possible to use a different word than 人 for かわいい人 if she wanted to specify gender, like say, かわいい子? What's the point of using 人 in place of 男?

The only possible alternative I could think of is 娘, read as こ, but not as むすめ. This is pretty normal in song lyrics. The reason Shiina opted for ひと, I think, is that for this particular song こ would sound too cute. 「子」 used here looks too childish.

It is not using 人 in place of 男 that I was talking about. I was talking about writing 男 and reading it as ひと.　To read is as おとこ can sound too direct and too female-chauvinistic. It can sound like one is looking at a man as a piece of meat.

If you are automatically translating "ひと = person", you will not get this custom. Even in real life conversations, we use ひと very often to refer to someone's lover. If a woman says 「あのひと」, it refers to her lover. Same word is used by a man to refer to his lover.　If you translate it to "that person", it destroys everythng. When we write 「あのひと」, we would use 「あの男」「あの女」often with the furigana ひと over the kanji. Shiina probably avoided using 「かわいい女」 or 「かわいい娘」because it can make it look like enka lyrics. Please rememeber that the pronunciation comes first, the letters second in this custom.

[languagehacker]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Right. That is my take at least. If she is saying something like 「どういう気持でいまあたしにキスをしてくれたのかな 」 in her daydream, it would forever be impossible to understand her lyrics.



The only possible alternative I could think of is 娘, read as こ, but not as むすめ. This is pretty normal in song lyrics. The reason Shiina opted for ひと, I think, is that for this particular song こ would sound too cute. 「子」 used here looks too childish.

It is not using 人 in place of 男 that I was talking about. I was talking about writing 男 and reading it as ひと.　To read is as おとこ can sound too direct and too female-chauvinistic. It can sound like one is looking at a man as a piece of meat.

This makes sense to me intuitively. One thing I noticed about Japanese is that the polite form is gender-neutral, and once you start using gender-specific ways of talking you are no longer being polite.

If you are automatically translating "ひと = person", you will not get this custom. Even in real life conversations, we use ひと very often to refer to someone's lover. If a woman says 「あのひと」, it refers to her lover. Same word is used by a man to refer to his lover.　If you translate it to "that person", it destroys everythng. When we write 「あのひと」, we would use 「あの男」「あの女」often with the furigana ひと over the kanji. Shiina probably avoided using 「かわいい女」 or 「かわいい娘」because it can make it look like enka lyrics. Please rememeber that the pronunciation comes first, the letters second in this custom.

I see how it is now. I guess our language or culture is in this respect relatively sexist. I wrote a paper on enka before. I'm guessing that because of the nature of enka music, a person can say おんな and it won't have the same sexual connotations if it was used in rock.

I like the Japanese way, so I decided not to make the interpretive leap and instead use the direct translation of "people." It might sound a little off to the English listener who expects to hear "girls," but that's just because our culture is not as evolved in this respect. It's still grammatically correct and understandable.

I have uploaded a new update, which can be seen here:
YouTube - ‪Shiina Ringo - Tadashii Machi / "The Right Town" (subtitled) 【HD】‬‏

What do you think? This will be the final version, unless you can find anything else that needs improvement.

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by languagehacker

What do you think? This will be the final version, unless you can find anything else that needs improvement.

I honestly cannot find any room for positive improvement. Anything said further will be nitpicking. Feeling a vicarious sense of accomplishment!

[languagehacker]

I made a few changes and am finally satisfied with the translation. The video will be put up later. One of the most important things that I had to change was the way I interpeted どういう気持ちで. I had it as "What did it feel like," when this is actually asking about the emotional motivation for kissing. The rest are little things that I felt made it read better.

I wanted to ask you, how much truth do you think there is in this song? It doesn't seem like a song that was just made up from her imagination. There are some things in it that match up with things that are known to be true about Shiina, and I heard that she cries sometimes when she sings it. Do you think that this song is about her and that none of it is made up?