Social Balance as a Gaijin
 

How do you deal with/feel about these scenarios, or do you just not care?

From the first perspective, I'll talk about gaijin amongst other gaijin. What I've tended to notice is that most gaijin will never be truly happy with each other. On one hand, a gaijin may be ostracized by other gaijin for not trying to fit into the culture enough, or will always try to one-up newbies. Then another gaijin will get the same crap for being too into the culture. Many gaijin will judge each other and detest each other. We have examples even on this forum about not wanting to associate with other gaijin, hating other gaijin, etc.

But then you have being a gaijin from the Japanese perspective. If you take too little interest in social customs, many Japanese will just think you're an ignorant foreigner and treat you as such. If you try too hard, they'll question why you're trying to be more Japanese than them.

It's hard to find a healthy balance of where one should fall, in my opinion.

Thats another typical Western society Problem we have here.

It's called envy which is very common towards us! No actually envy isn't the right word for it. I don't know the English word to describe it.


I told you in the other thread what I'm going to do with them.. Ignore!

Well of course you can ignore the gaijin; I acknowledge that. But you'll get it from Japanese people too.

From Japanese? What you mean by that?

Read the second paragraph.

Well now thats just laughable Wings.

Impossible for me to believe that it in any kinda way.


Personally, I think you invest way too much time in thinking what others might think about you. That is not good at all.

Be yourself! And when you like to behave more like Japanese.. Please do so, one better person out there then!

You can believe what you want, but that's a pretty accurate description of how it is.


You've clearly let it be known that you don't want anything to do with foreigners. Maybe you spend a little too much time judging other people without giving them a chance. That's not good at all.

There's a difference between respecting cultural customs and trying to be a part of them.

I've never heard of the latter phenomena.

In my experience... you can never try too hard to fit in, in Japanese society from a Japanese perspective.

It's impossible to believe for me! Maybe others will I can not.


Never said I don't like foreigners or that I hate them.. I just don't want to spend time with them during my time in Japan is that too much to ask? Forgive me but I spend 23 years with these people now.. enough of it, need a change!


Ok tell me the difference then?

Can't say I experienced any of the issues of gaijin not getting along with other gaijin where I lived, well not for the sorts of reasons you state above. Everyone got along pretty well. There were social groups of course but they were more split along lines of professions and interests like sports. Most company owners for instance would not be seen at the weekly poker night. They could be found though in the cycling group or out playing golf. Never really met anyone who was overly concerned about how much you were or were not into Japanese culture. Just about everyone there regardless of profession was there because of the great snow and skiing. Some of us almost purely for that reason, others almost purely for the business opportunities and money to be made from ski tourism. Some had been in the region for over 20 years whilst most others had only started living there within the last 5 years. Many spoke fluent Japanese, took a great interest in the culture and had Japanese partners and many barely spoke a word of Japanese and had little interest in any cultural aspects. Such things though generally didn't have any determination on the social groups that formed.

I actually spent a lot of time doing research on the topic as part of a project. We covered a lot of issues, mainly from perception of culture by gaijin and the reaction of Japanese. Of course things like using chopsticks weren't a big deal, but when discussing things like a foreigner wearing a yukatta during summer season or things of that nature, nearly 100 percent of the responses were always "That's pretty weird," "Why would they do that?" and things of that nature.

I was stared at in 2005 when I went to an eatery near Yurakucho Eki. I was eating my meal with chopsticks. Perhaps they were surprised I knew how to use them. I was in full vacationing gaijin mode. I'm happy with that-them knowing I'm a tourist, because I am!

Then again, last October I was on the bus in Kyoto when a pale blonde American got on board with a full kimono. It just looked odd to me. I wasn't judging her and I really didn't notice anyone else on the bus staring at her either. Perhaps that is a little more common in Kyoto than Tokyo....

I couldn't agree more. Another factor is that there's this girl on YouTube called Sammi,and she's a white American and she's mostly right about things[I mean she's passed level 1 of the citizenship test I think],but one thing she said,or implied,was to just make friends with the white people because the Japanese won't discuss certain things. Now I don't know about that. If I did that I wouldn't have many friends! I will make friends with non-Japanese if they are around,and of course if they're cool,but if I don't make friends with Japanese people I'll be in trouble.

I know this is a real long shot, but your report isn't anywhere online is it? I'd love to read it because I'm very interested in things like that, and Japanese reactions to overly-enthusiastic (or not) foreigners is something I've never really come across yet.

Gah... I'd be SO embaressed to do anything like that. I mean, to do that must take a lot of guts for a foreigner to do that in public.
I really don't like to say this, but I must admit I would be a little embaressed to be on the same bus as her. Unless of course she was in it for a reason, like a wedding, workshop etc.
But generally if it was out of the blue... I'd probably shy away and not make eye contact. I guess that's just me, but I do sorta easily feel embarressed for other people. :L

I don`t think that a balance is all that hard to find... At least on the Japanese side.

I am one of the group who does not go out of my way to lower my standards for friendship just because someone is not Japanese. I don`t hold it against anyone - I really don`t care all that much. I`m not going to go out of my way to be friends with someone just because of their national/racial background. I don`t have any friends who are friends because they`re Japanese, just as I don`t have any friends who are friends because they aren`t Japanese.

On the Japanese side, the situations where you are going to be treated strangely are really extremes. The person who doesn`t give a crap about Japanese culture / customs, and stomps all over them is going to get a lot of cringes... And the opposite extreme - the people who feel that they need to wear a kimono and take traditional art classes to "fit in" are going to get raised eyebrows. You can behave "normally" - you don`t need to be one extreme or the other in this department.

I actually agree with you more on the Japanese part. I've found a pretty normal balance in that respect. It's just that I do encounter more people on both ends of the spectrum, and they get the respective reaction from the Japanese people.

On the gaijin side, I think it just ultimately comes back down to the "My Japan Syndrome" we had an entire thread on before, and you've seen the kinds of responses that were elicited.

I find it difficult to believe that nearly 100% of Japanese are put off by foreigners wearing yukata during the summer (I assume at festivals and the like, and not like wearing a yukata to school, right?).

I am curious how the question was asked and who was responding.

I was a part of a group of high schoolers a few years back doing an exchange in Nara. At the going away party all the host moms of the American girls in the group had them come to the going-away party in ... you guessed i ... yukata. Everyone commented on how wonderful the looked dressed in traditional Japanese clothing. The only people that commented it looked odd were the American boys.

Any walk through the airport or around temples will show traditional Japanese gifts and garb marketed directly to English-speaking buyers. Why would they do that if they didn't want foreigners to buy the stuff?

The main demographic were younger, university age students, with the next being older. We wanted a response from the younger generation to compare to the older generation to hopefully try and find a progressive trend.

The yukata was one example, but it's really not hard to believe in my opinion. The question was simply along the lines of "What do you think of foreigners who partake in the wearing of (yukata) and other traditional Japanese clothing?" And this wasn't the only question asked, as I said before; there was more research behind this. Anyway, most of the responses came down to the fact that the people we asked felt like many foreigners don't really understand the spirit of the culture and things like matsuri, and while they appreciated the effort, they felt like it was something better observed from afar. To do something like wear yukata to them was simply, foreign.


You should know this is simply commercialism at it's finest. They're not going to completely alienate a group and miss out on sales, and potentially even more tourism. This kind of practice happens all over the world.

I am going to agree with WingsToDiscovery on this.
It is one thing to wear a yukata as a sort of cultural experience thing... And another to just wear a yukata - even if at a festival or the like. When there is a group of students wearing yukata, they`re going to be viewed as students taking part in some class of sorts. It isn`t quite the same as what would be considered "wearing" one.
For the cultural class sort of thing, you`re trying one on - not really wearing one.

Because these things are excellent souvenirs, and they sell well? I don`t think it is that people don`t want anyone foreign to put them on - just that wearing them around in public is going to get a weird reaction.

The only situations where it appears to be completely accepted for a foreigner to wear traditional clothing is a wedding (when the bride or groom). There is no "try-it-on" cultural class feel to it, and the kimono itself has a strong enough traditional aspect to it that it is simply a traditional part of the wedding. If having a traditional Shinto-style wedding, wearing anything else would be unthinkable. In pretty much every other situation it is also normal to wear other clothing. (And the overwhelming majority does so.)

I can understand getting nearly a 100% response if your pool of respondents was "young" as you said. They don't like wearing yukata, either.

There are appropriate times and places to wear such things. Outside of those situations, it isn't appropriate for anyone, foreigner or not, to wear them.

I wore traditional garb when I participated in a a danjiri matsuri in my town. My Japanese buddy and I then wore the same get-ups to a Halloween party in our neighborhood. The hosts were jokingly P'O'ed because our "costumes" were "too cool".

At the appropriate situations, I have never heard of hints or even rumors of Japanese thinking foreigners wearing Japanese traditional clothing as inappropriate or strange. If anything quite the opposite. I know people who would tell me exactly what thought about every other situation, so, again, I find this harder to believe with people over the age of 25 or so.

If she was by herself, in Kyoto, it's likely she was wearing it for a reason. My sumi-e teacher was American and she used to routinely wear kimono into Kyoto to go to tea ceremony and painting seminars, because that was pretty much the uniform. I knew others who were required to wear kimono for shamisen/koto recitals. I always find it a bit harsh when people say foreigners, by dint of being foreign, should or can never partake of traditional Japanese culture publicly- sometimes your hobbies and interests take you that way and then it seems like the only reason not to is pretty feeble. And some Japanese people really, really encourage you to wear it as well, so *shrug* what do you do?

The point is, it's hard to tell from a chance encounter sometimes and it's easy to be judgmental. Maybe, even if she hid it well, felt rather weird and uncomfortable wearing kimono in public too. I know I do, precisely BECAUSE I feel people (especially other foreigners) are probably looking at me and thinking 'What a fake! Go home!'.

Personally I feel that as long as they aren't making a loud and public spectacle of themselves, foreigners can wear traditional clothing and it doesn't bother me. I've never heard any negative comments from Japanese people either, although I've heard plenty from other foreigners. In fact, I've heard more complaints from Japanese people about foreigners dressing inappropriately in western clothes. Definitely I'll agree that there's a time and a place though, for anyone even Japanese people. In the wrong context it does look weird and I guess in those situations I'm more embarrassed by foreigners than Japanese people.

There seems more of a stigma for boys in this situation too; for girls at least there's a bit more encouragement to wear kimono/yukata.

A bit late to notice this... But if she is saying this - start doubting her.

There is no "citizenship test". Trust me.

If she is unable to discuss certain things with Japanese, that is her personal issue. There are obviously taboo subjects in every culture - avoiding friendships with an entire group of people because of the handful of taboo subjects is silly... Which leads me to believe that it isn`t what she is talking about, but rather that there is some other issue putting a wall up in communication.

Chances are - it is one of the common "want to complain about Japan, but Japanese people don`t want to listen, agree, or complain about it too" issues. There are a lot of foreigners in Japan who hate various aspects of Japan and want to let every Japanese person they meet know how bad Japan is in those areas. (And get agrement from the Japanese person, which will add fuel to their argument.) They have a weird tendency to bring these things up pretty much out of the blue and very early on in the relationship... So friendships fizzle quite quickly.

It is kind of sad because they don`t realize that if someone came up to them and wanted to complain about how screwed up their home country was... They probably wouldn`t think too highly of the person and not be their friend either.

It has been a while since this happened, but someone actually complained to me about how no Japanese wanted to talk about how awful Japanese such-and-such was, and how they couldn`t make any Japanese friends because everytime they started talking to someone they would "run away" as soon as she brought up the idiocy of Japanese society. People like this assume that their personal world view is obviously correct, and that everyone will agree with them and not be offended even if their home is insulted out of the blue. Everyone is expected to be very unsatisfied with society, and a lack of complaints is seen as "not wanting to talk". But without realizing that complaining about your own culture/country is quite different from complaining about another.

Well,you be the judge.
YouTube - ‪33Sammi32's Channel‬‏

I don`t really have the time or desire to go through a ton of videos... Sorry. I was just noting that if someone says that they have passed citizenship tests - it is a HUGE red flag that they are lying like crazy to give themselves credibility because there are no citizenship tests. And definitely not "levels" of them.

I don't know why you're trying to fight me with a subjective response like that.

You'll always be able to say "Well, I..." but just because you had a different experience doesn't mean every JAPANESE person that was asked questions is somehow the wrong ones and you're right.

I'm finding a lot of this interesting.
I honestly have little to no idea what foreigner-foreigner relations are like in Japan.
With regards to how I am seen by Japanese people, it feels like regardless of how much Japanese I speak, everyone around me wishes I spoke more.
It feels like any behavior I have which is western is being put up with and would be better off dropped like a bad habit.
It honestly feels like there's a consistent and constant desire for me to be less western etc.
When I showed strangers a picture of me wearing a yukatta and tell them that I tied the obi myself, I get the standard "don't brag" thing, and then a kind of happiness from them that a foreigner has taken interest in learning such a Japanese custom.

If I wore my yukatta with pride and strutted down the street, I'm sure that any Japanese person observing it would think that I was getting it all wrong.

I think the references to extremes and appropriateness are applicable in these situations. I have witnessed the reactions described within social groups in the U.S. that were focused on Japanese culture. The gaijin were often consumed with being one-up over the newbies and/or those less prone to public displays of the "Japanese-ness". I also recall overhearing the snide comments muttered by the older Nisei in the back of the room. The only difference was that they were not confronting anyone openly. It happens; but it is very rare. And in these cases I would say that it is more a reflection on the individuals than the cultural backgrounds, especially in the case of the Nisei.

In the vast majority of my dealing with Nisei and Japanese visitors to the U.S., they have been extremely appreciative and encouraging of any effort a westerner makes to adopt aspects of their culture.

The only predictable exceptions I have encountered to this have been based on the situation and timing being inappropriate. When any of us (Westerners or Japanese) are dealing with over zealous otaku who seem to have trouble accepting that the world has more in it than anime, even I slip into that judgement mode. Thankfully, those situations are rare too.

I am not "trying to fight you" I am just pointing out that the near 100% of Japanese you surveyed who said foreigners look strange in traditional dress was not a wide cross-section of Japanese society. I am guessing they were all under the age of 20. I am also guessing they themselves are not huge fans of traditional Japanese dress. My response wasn't subjective, just confirming my observation.

I wonder if you asked the question like this, to a wider range of ages what you would get?

"What do you think when you see a non-Japanese wearing a yukata at a summer festival?"

I bring it up because my experience was 180 degrees different than what your research seems to show. I wouldn't harp on it if you hadn't said "nearly 100%" but because my experience is nearly 100% in the opposite direction, I feel it worth mentioning.

I find it funny that you use the term "fit in" how about being open minded or wanting to experience something other than you are use to. Guess we should all give strange looks at the Japanese that are eating In N' Out burgers wearing shorts and a T-shirt...shouldn't they be having sushi wearing traditional outfits.

I would be that guy wearing a yukata, why, because I am in Japan to experience a different culture, people, and life style. Should I avoid going to onsen's is that too extreme as well? There is a saying "when in Rome."

When in Japan I avoided areas like Roppongi or Azubu juban simply because they were a gaijin hot spots. Does this make me a weird person? I think not. I was in Japan to experience the people and the culture not to go sit at a British pub surrounded by other gaijin, just like I could be doing at home.

So people can think whatever they want of me, or feel embarrassed(as another poster stated) about my need to "fit in" but I will be enjoying myself and experiencing things I never would have.

I like the way you think Sir :thumbsup:

I don't know if you saw my post where I said the demographic was both university age students (generally 20-23) and older people (ranging in the 40s to early 50s) as to cross reference the current and past generation.

I wouldn't think he was trying to fight you on your analysis just that the youth of Japan are becoming much less traditional. So if you are asking a group that already finds it weird/unappealing to wear a yukata of course they are going to think a foreigner wearing one when "I'm Japanese and I don't want to wear one" mentality exists.

One thing I found funny during my time in Japan...I really wanted clothing/hats that had a Japanese style to them but all I could find was Lakers or American surf company labels. When I asked my friend why I could not find any hats that were Japanese in style she said because it would be weird for Japanese to wear a Japanese styled hat...go figure.

So this is from the same demographics you selected and as MMM pointed out this same group would probably find a foreigner wearing a Onigashiyama hat weird because they are all wearing Long beach and Laker's gear.

That's simply their perception of style amongst themselves, and it's unavailability to anyone as such. They don't like something like traditional hats, therefore they're not produced, and ultimately not available as a souvenir to yourself. But it's not that the Japanese hats are something that they currently wear and would either object or embrace to a foreigner wearing them either way.

I think the issue is not only age, but more importantly context.

I don't know exactly how the question was asked, but if you said "Do you think it is odd to see non-Japanese wearing traditional Japanese clothing?" then it wouldn't surprise me that you had a high % of "yes" answers, because in most situations it is odd for ANYONE to be wearing traditional Japanese clothing.

For example, if you said "Do you think it would be odd for a non-Englishman to wear a suit of armor?", invariably, the answer would be "yes" from most people, British or otherwise.

However, if the question became "Do you think it would be odd for a non-Englishman to wear a suit of armor at a Renaissance Fair?" then I think you would see a dramatic shift in the answers.

I think the same is probably true if you asked "Do you think it is odd to see non-Japanese wearing traditional Japanese clothing at a summer festival?"... one of the only appropriate situations to wear yukata. You would find many more people saying "No, it's totally fine."

But once again, that's not what was asked.

I think Nyororin is referring to people who take the extreme of rejecting their own culture and trying to join Japanese culture- living in a fantasy land of being something that they are not. And the problem with that is this person will never be considered to be Japanese (by Japanese people), and probably does not have a genuine understanding behind all the things they are doing. It is one thing to want to come and experience things, and it is another to live in a delusional fantasy land (that many people who have idolized Japan seem to try to live in).

I still do not get this close minded way of thinking? So your saying a Japanese person living in America will never know what it's like to be an American and will never be able to understand what it is because it's impossible for a foreigner to understand our ultra complex culture? As if it's some cosmic secret an American can never understand the Japanese culture?

You are making it sound like every foreigner who wants to live in Japan and be a part of its culture is some crazy person who see's Naruto and Nanoha around every corner. You postulate its unthinkable to reject ones own culture? As if their perception must be flawed to want to be anything other than what they have been given. Culture is no different a choice than anything else in life.

Japanese and many other nationalities flock to America or idolize America and want to come or be it...does this make them delusional no it's their perception. Think it's more of a grass is greener syndrome. Some Americans grow disenchanted with our culture as we see the truth of it and seek other cultures or countries that we perceive as better.

Myself for example I appreciated the respect for ones environment and fellow man I found in Japan. I find this to be lacking very much in America...simple example vending machines on the streets; they would never work here like they do in Japan...they would be broken into/grafiti'd up quickly.

Is it so strange that someone could find another culture more appealing than their own? How is this any different than Japan's fascination with all things American?

I guess the point Rick is making is that regarless of how hard you try, regardless even if you become a Japanese citizen, you will never actually be considered Japanese by the Japanese. In places like Australia and I assume the US it's not unusual at all to see people of many different racial backgrounds and to consider them Australian or American without a second thought.
In Japan it's not like that. You could be born there, speak and read absolutely fluently, know the customs as well as any native but unless you look Japanese you will never be considered Japanese. You will always be a gaijin.

Japanese love it when foreigners wear traditional clothing, unless it is incorrectly worn. I saw them really get upset once when a young lady was wearing a kimono with the left side under the right signifying death.
Correctly worn the person will get sincere compliments.

You misinterpreted what I was saying.
I put quotes around the "fit in" because it wasn`t a serious meaning.

There are people who feel that they NEED to wear kimono and do traditional things in order to fit in. They feel that they need to do such things to be "more Japanese" - when, as you noted, the average Japanese doesn`t even do such things. For the people I was speaking of, it isn`t an experience. It isn`t for enjoyment. There are people who feel this is NECESSARY. They tend to feel that all Japanese SHOULD be wearing kimono and eating sushi, as you put it... And usually look down on anything western because it "is destroying Japanese culture".

If you did interpret me correctly, and the above describes you, well... Never mind then.

A Japanese person in America will never know what it is like to to be born and raised an American, just as a foreigner in Japan will never know what it is like to be born and raised Japanese. It is possible to know what is involved, and to know about every facet of life in Japan - but you cannot *know* the experience as you have not had it.
Understanding the culture is possible. Having the experience of having grown up in the culture is not something you can acquire.

Being part of Japanese culture isn`t rejecting everything non-Japanese. I think this is the biggest problem. Rejecting everything that isn`t "really Japanese" isn`t going to get you far as Japan isn`t entirely "really Japanese" stuff. People don`t wear kimono everyday, and they don`t confine themselves to traditional foods and culture. To reject things that are "western" is to reject a huge part of Japan.