Mah, no worries ^_^ . But you're right--we're starting to derail the thread :P , so enough of that :D

You think women who won't have children are being "selfish"?

No offense... but I'd call a woman's decision, whatever it was as "none of your business". Do what feels right for you. I find it ironic that you complain about certain women shunning motherhood, when all you're doing is dismissing the alternative.

Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that.

First, I'll say this: You can't fight biology.

Now before you get fired up, listen well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with women going out and getting jobs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman's decision to not have children (though due to bio-chemistry, she'll probably want one sooner or later). I wouldn't say that such a decision is 'selfish', though I could make a case for it being 'unnatural'.

The fact remains that biologically, women are MEANT to have children and nurture them--why else would they be endowed by god or selection to have a womb and breasts? So, biologically, gender roles will ALWAYS exist. You can't change that. It will always be the woman's role to birth and nurture children.

Whether she fulfills that role or not is up to her.

Personally, if I were a woman, I wouldn't fulfill that role. I don't have enough patience to raise kids... or sanity. Believe me, making that decision would be for the benefit of mankind XD .

In Japan, it seems that many women are deciding to not have children and instead pursue a career-driven life. Okay, that's fine! The birthrate now may be down, but remember that a lot of women are compelled to have children at some time in their life--biochemistry, like I said. So most of the ones that are refusing to have kids now will probably have at least one later on, so I don't see what all the fuss is about it.

And just a little interjection.... I really hate how the feminist movement in the Western countries has totally trashed the male identity. Role, fine. Identity, not fine. It's gone so far that a lot of men today don't know how to actually be a man.

Damn, someone is going to challenge me to say what a man should be.... Shit, if you don't know, there's no way I can explain it to you. I can't bring in biology too much, because everyone always says it's irrelevant or they get pissed off. And I can't bring in religion because I apparently do that too much (*winks at noodle*), and that gets totally subjective anyway.

How about this: A man should be everything that a woman is not. There. Simple. I hope.

Oh, and Vice-Versa (A woman should be everything that a man is not).

You missed my point. You read the first line and ignored the rest!
But as you went off, I’ll reply to that. Hell yeah it’s selfish if every woman says they don't want kids just because hey, someone else will have kids! I never said it was selfish if she had her reasons! If she is not stable mentally or financially, that’s the last thing she should ever do. If she knows and feels like she'll be a horrible parent, then by all means, stay away from kids, if she thinks the child won’t be brought up in a loving environment, then don’t have kids. BUT, if she doesn't want to have kids because she thinks that she can't pursue a career and that money is the most important thing in her life, or that she has the attitude of, “why the hell should I do it? It’s so unfair that us women have to give birth and men do nothing” then, not meaning to sound rude, but she can f*** off! IN my opinion!

And what is exactly the other alternative? I don't know what you meant by that!

And necessary for society at the time of function? What are you saying, it’s not necessary anymore? Are you telling me that women don’t need to give birth anymore and that it’s ok for the human race to just die out because we don’t need to give birth anymore?? Dude, what are you talking about? Having children is a necessity and will always be.

You know, I found a funny article the other day. Some research was done on the US, France, UK, and Canada! They found that many people were not “very” happy with the fact that there seemed to be so many immigrants in their countries! The article suggested that because many of the people in these countries have a “modern” mindset, they don’t wish to have a lot of children and they choose other things in their life, it appeared that there were more foreigners, but it was actually that there were less of them being born! The article finished with a funny line. It was something like, “If we all followed the mindset of the average western workaholic, then in no more than one century the worlds populations will be less than 50million and we could face extinction soon thereafter!”

I still don't see why some people have a problem or find it "unnatural" that some women just don't want to have children and it's unfair to expect them all to. It's not like back in the old days where they didn't have much say in the matter, and was forced into marriage and into having children, etc., but now-a-days, women are either waiting until they've established a career, or just not having them because they feel they wouldn't make good mothers. There are some women who shouldn't have children, but they have them anyway. If you already know and realize that you're not into the whole parenting thing, then you shouldn't have children.

There are some women who just don't want to biologically go through physically having a child. I'm personally one of them. I'd rather adopt a child, or two, in need, than to have one of my own.

I totally agree with this and i didn't say otherwise!... Its perfectly ok for a woman to establish a career then have a child...
Its not ok for a woman to have a child if she knows she'll do a bad job.

And also, adopting is another great choice and i admire all families that do it! If you really don't wanna go through the pain, but want to help a child, this is great.

Well your opinion is stupid... in my opinion. In MY opinion a woman can decide whether or not she wants to become a mother for whatever reason she wants. Again... it's none of your (or my) business.

Also...I was speaking of gender roles in general rather motherhood specifically when I said-

"Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that."

It seemed you wanted to justify gender roles because they'd "lasted for millenia". I was simply saying that's not a valid justification. I can't see the role of mother ever changing unless artificial birthing becomes practical and convenient.

The reason I said it is because you seemed to have some sort of 19th century attitude towards the role of women in society in that you believe that the most important way a woman can contribute to society is to become a mother.

Wow, what is it with people TOTALLY misunderstanding my posts? I think i need to go back to school and relearn english!:rolleyes:

Tbh, I can't be bothered to rewrite everything, so if you (want), could you kindly read what i've written again!

lol UMAD?
Firstly, I stated said that comment in reply to someone else saying something about the raising of children. That has nothing to do with digressing, it was a reply to their statement.

Lets see, we need peer-reviewed STUDIES to see whats in front of us these days. How ENLIGHTENED of you. Omg, you are just too much. Telling me to silence because I didn't do a study and dismissing my claim? Wow you're such a professional kiddo ;o What would the world do without your oh-so-moral ethical righteousness!

Women aren't better suited to raising kids? Seriously, have you done a peer reviewed study to find out how kids without BOTH parents turn out? My point was valid because NATURALLY a MOTHER in NATURE brings up her offspring and instills a lot of positive qualities that are not instilled by the FATHER. If you deny this, then you are the most short sighted pseudo scientist i've ever come across.
As for your total nonsensical posting of womens accomplishments, what was it in reply of? Did anyone in this thread say anything negative about women?
No.. I don't see anything of the sort.

Oy Vey.
People like you think you are so professional and hide behind "studies" and "peer reviews" while the truth looms in front of them.
What do YOU know about women or men if you're one or the other? Are you a woman or a man? Why are you typing up womens accomplishments? Why are you pathetically arguing with me that a FATHER is more naturally inclined to raise offspring? Are YOU a father who has been in the same situation? Have YOU got DATA to back YOUR ass up? Have you seen a mass CASE of MALES raising their children FULL TIME?
Also what has a natural process of all HUMANITY just got to do with JAPAN?! It is WELL KNOWN that Japan has a population crisis. Do I really need to make a freaking professional citation on a forum just so YOU can understand?!

Just wow. Your short sightedness makes me sad.

Excuse me but I am not even basing my views on Religion. Thank you for acting as a mediator but I will not take bullshit lying down. I have argued with this guy/girl before and he/she has gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what the real issues are about. I believe the thread was something about why cars are a "guy" thing.
This "person" took what I said totally out of context and made claims about me being sexist when I had said NOTHING sexist at all. I replied back and did not get a response about my so called sexism.
People like this do nothing but make an argument worse by taking away from whatever issue is being discussed.

ps. Thank you Noodle for also speaking on my behalf. As usual your posts make plenty of sense to me lol.
Anyway, It is not a 19th Century view that women stay home and raise kids.
In fact as I recall the vote was given to women just the previous century, in the West.. lol. Nevermind going out to look for jobs?
I already stated that Women can do what they want soooo manyyyy timessss.
If however, Japan has a population crisis, then there IS a problem. I stated that this model of Japan can be seen as something to stay clear of.
Who do we blame for whats gone wrong though?
Do we uphold a false sense of political correctness ahead of THE crisis?
It annoys me when people don't take the key points out of someones post and digress to something that doesn't even matter.

I think what kunitokotachi was saying is that we need both parents to raise children, and it should be irrelevant if a woman is better with children or not. Some men turn out to be better than women in this regard. It shouldn't always be "up to the mother" and women should be allowed to make the choice of whether or not she wants to pursue a career, or be stuck raising a family. In all honesty, it's not fair that women are faced with such choices and men aren't. Men should have to face the same responsibilities that a mother has to where child raising is concerned. Not all women are cut out to be the type to stay at home and raise children.

No I agree with you. Also though, you are given the cards you are given. If you are a woman, you are MADE to have kids. You are MADE to have mood swings and cramps and menopausal problems and so on. Its something you deal with whether you want babies or not.
You can say it isn't fair that women are given such choices, (when men aren't) till you're red in the face and i'll agree, it definitely isn't. I mean hell, i've taken the heat because of my mothers menopause and ex-girlfriend/girlfriend pms issues so I wish just as much that these things didnt exist!
But they do.
This is why these "unfair" choices are a part of life.

But it also shouldn't be expected for a woman to just have children either. Yeah, we're made to "have children", but we shouldn't have them if we don't want to. It seems we both agree on that point, though. It's like me and my ex. He's the type to settle down and start a family. I'm definitely not. I don't even have the desire to get married. I want to adopt a child, not have one.

Hm well i'm sure your reasons are personal so I won't delve. It still makes me curious as to why you wouldn't want a child. This could cause friction with a lot of partners unless you wait and find someone who shares the same viewpoint.
Even so, adopting a child is hardly a bad thing.

What an informative post!
Thank you for your perspective. I really didn't know that.

well, first of all I am going to apologize for cursing you out. As you can see all we ended up doing was enter into a shit talking contest and is not leading us any closer understanding the issue at hand which is gender roles in regards to parenting. So like I say again, I humbly apologize for letting it go this far. However, you did come out of left field accusing me of going off on a tangent. Now, yes women are the ones who give birth; I agree. Women also breast feed throughout infancy; well some rather get the baby formula from stores. Now, I am inclined to agree that the bond with a child and it's mother throughout infancy can create some positive reinforcement that would otherwise be missed it had not happened; it seems logical right? Now, it was unfair of you to accuse me of being a psuedo scientist (although I was impressed when you brought that up because I don't think I know many people who would actually know what that means) because you have to understand where I'm coming from. I have learned to stop automatically believing what I see before my eyes and through experience to be the most rational possible explanation for everything. Before my college experience I would have agreed that mothers may produce the best possible much needed positive reinforcement that the child needs. However, although it might be true during infancy what about when the child starts going to grade school. Isn't the parenting role pretty much up for grabs? Couldn't a father from that point on do just as good a job? The reason why peer-reviewed research is so great is because it approaches all possible variables using the scientific method and provides us with empirical validity. Let me ask you these questions then you see where I'm coming from. I hope I am able to explain myself in a coherent manner.

1. What do you say about same sexed couples who are able to raise children just as good or better than those families with the traditional housewife raising the children? For example 2 guys who adopt a child.

2. What do you think about a father who has to raise his child alone because the mother died at childbirth and he is able to do it just as good or better than those families with the traditional housewife?

3. What do you think about the traditional housewife who does an acceptable job of raising her child yet the child still ends up being a criminal or "messed up" for a lack of a better term?

4. What about the single mother problem? Children have a better chance of being successful and nurtured in a two parent family right? So, it isn't just mother power or father power alone right?

As far as Japan's population problem? Japan is already too crowded to begin with. Now, if there population does start decreasing to an extreme point because women want to stop having babies then a solution may be growing test-tube babies in a laboratory.

This according to the CIA's little "factbook" they keep online:

Population Growth Rate: -0.088% (2007 est.)

Birth Rate: 8.1 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)

Death Rate: 8.98 deaths/1,000 population (2007 est.)

( https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ja.html#People )

So, given that these are accurate, I'm wondering... How is a decline of less than .1% a cause for enough concern for a bunch of Gaijin to have a heated argument over the role of Japanese women in their society?

Now, I don't know what the trend has been for population growth, but if it's been <.1% in the last ten years.... That's tiny.

Japan's population right now is 127,433,494 (July 2007 est.) . To drop to 50 million, as some have claimed, it would take a little longer than 2050 -_-; . Well, I shouldn't say that because I didn't do the math, but that large of a drop would seem to take a lot longer than has been suggested.

Oh, also for the record, according to the CIA, there are actually (slightly) more women than men in Japan :eek: ! And here the other day my sister was telling me that they still abort female babies so they can have boys instead--I told her that's only in China, now, and less now than it was even 20 years ago, but I couldn't back it up :P . Ha, now I can back myself up with the friggen' C.I.A. :D . But this is all an aside, so I must apologize for making you read all the 'irrelevant' data ^_^;;; .

Because there are too many children out here who need homes. I've actually wanted to adopt since I was a child myself. The idea of adoption has always been intriguing to me, since I find it more helpful.I'm just being selfish with this. I really don't want to have a child biologically. I don't want to go through with it. I've always liked children, but never wanted to physically have any.

'Cos it's FUN! :mtongue:

Heh, can't argue with! XD :D

Incredible exchange of dialogue here. Priceless information. First time I've witnessed that 'much' insults in one thread. All the impressions that I've perceived are of fused destructive criticisms and discriminative accusations.

If I was a regular member, I would contemplate joining the argument myself and be confident of emerging victorious, from a totally different standpoint, prior to what's been raised. Point is: Your belligerent confrontation can, more than likely, potentially attract others like yourselves to participate, as conveniently demonstrated.

Just for the record, I intend to keep an exclusive eye on this thread. I'll intervene when I must, spectate when I desire, or even hang out over here, for the fun of it. I respect your rights as JF individuals and people who possess the ability to critically think before responding, in fact, I love it; have all your heated arguments, for as much as you want, but I want an "in with the facts", and "out with the insults" principle involved, hear?

P.S. Can't resist the urge to display pugnaciousness? Check out our Personal Messaging options anytime! ^^

~There's no need to reply to this post.~

CoolNard

You should read that part again... I didn't say it will happen :rolleyes:

Someone else said it, Noodle.

i dont think japanese population is growing coz japan in one of the largest old community in the world and a lot of family in japan is nucleus family..

I see. I take that comment back then... What was described seemed slightly similar to the article I spoke about!

I humbly apologise as well for being mean to you.

A lot of the points you've raised are valid. From experience and common sense there is no reason to say that a father isn't as good a parent as a mother. Even so these cases are in the minority in the world. People have to rise up, above and beyond whats expected, to take care of children in the best possible way they can in these situations. A single father could do a great job but having a single parent is more or less a worst case scenario for a child.
From experience, common sense and studies i've read its clear to me that in the natural order of things a father instills a worldly ethic into his children. Children will learn what its like "outside" the house from the father. He'll be their role model to how they will deal with people in life and i'm sure plenty of other things.
The mother will instill family values and "togetherness" and other such qualities within her children. She'll be someone (in usual cases) to turn to for perhaps relationship advice or understanding, something like a therapist for her kids.
These are just some examples of how both genders will effect their children and i'm sure there are many other ways.
Of course it doesn't always turn out like this in a lot of cases either but in an "ok" world, this is how it is.
Now for no.1, I personally don't agree with same sex couples bringing up children. This is utter selfishness to me that a child doesn't need. I believe a child needs both sexed parents to have a fair chance at growing up. If there are any cases where a child has been raised in this manner then its yet to be identified in what way this child may have developed and how well he/she has grown up. A same sexed couple may have been able to provide a house and home and raise a child but I don't think they'll do a great job of instilling both what a male and female parenting system has to offer.
For no.2, I believe a father can do a great job at raising kids but he shouldn't have to. The kid will still need values instilled by a "woman" to be able to function in situations that require those values. Where the child picks these up from is then a lottery.
For no.3, a child needs a role model which is the father. This child will look for a role model and is more likely to become "bad" if he/she stays out on the streets, looking to learn about the world from peers or whoever can provide this knowledge. I can personally vouch for this. Being raised by a single mother i've had to go out and learn about the world by myself, making my own mistakes and learning from them. My mother did the best she could, although being principal of her own college made her quite a strict mother at that :rolleyes:
What becomes of the child with a different personality though? Not all children in such situations turn out the same.
As for no.4, I believe i've already answered that in the main body of this reply above.

In all cases above it is up to the child how he/she grows up in the end. For example a child without a mother and raised by a father will be great at interacting with people outside the family. However He/She will most likely have a problem keeping a relationship without learning how to love and care for their partner, which I believe is what a mother instills in her kids. It is up to the child and their personality to pursue this knowledge if he/she desires and learn from his/her mistakes.

See my point isn't that it effects just Japan. My point is that in Western countries where the population isn't that huge, we have a danger of following the same route. We have almost the same work ethic here in England. Now if over time this work ethic became identical to Japans, (and we're already known as the work-a-holics of Europe) then we'd be in trouble.
I'm just trying to say that such trends and attitudes to work aren't healthy for any society in the long run.

You know, I kind of disagree with this one. Just because two people are attracted to someone of the same gender, doesn't mean that they should be denied the right of having children if they so choose to have them, although, honestly, I am literally on the fence with this issue and usually try to avoid it since I can see where you're coming from on this issue, and I sort of feel this way, and then I can see it from the couple's point of view.There are female relatives outside of a mother. It could be a grandmother, a cousin, an aunt. If it's a situation where it is just the father, there can be "substitutions". I grew up in a two-parent home, but I always admired my mother's younger sister. She was in the Navy, very independent, and was able to travel around the world, and I really admired that about her. She's more mellow now, and is a single mother, but she's still pretty cool to me.

That aside, what exactly do you mean, "he shouldn't have to"?But this occurs in two-parent homes too.Sorry to hear that you went through that, but the same can apply to kids who grow up or grew up in a two-parent home. It's not exclusive to just those who grew up in a single-parent home.That's ironic. I really feel that I'm incapable of "romantic" love and my parents have always been loving towards me, so this can't truly always apply.

demographics Japan 101
 

Population shrinkage in Japan started over three years ago, Japans population as of 08' stands at 127 million. The government estimates a drop of roughly a third of this number - and within a century two thirds of the population will be gone. That would leave Japan with roughly 42 million people a century from now. ( 100yrs ) Japans workforce would shrink even faster tys to the lack of childern under 15yrs old, whose numbers have fallen for over 26 consecutive years and now reflect about 13.6 per cent of population.
Within 20yrs the workforce will have shrunk by 10 percent according to Goldman Sachs. Pls note how pension and health care programs work and long before any of these numbers are realized Japan will cease to function as a 21 st century nation. Hidenori Sakanaka former head of Tokoyo Immigration Bureau and present head of Japan Immigration Policy Institute lays the blame squarely on Japans 'Immigration Policy'. Japan simply put, needs about 10 million new human beings ( immigration ) at least over the next decade. Any discussion about women in Japans culture at this late stage addressing Japans present demographic challenge is simply 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.'

If they took the step to be married in this way then they have denied themselves, noone has denied it for them.

That is why I called it a lottery.

I mean that he shouldn't have to raise kids by himself. No single parent should.

I've answered this later.

I think you'll find that this happens in two parent homes because there is some sortof imbalance in that family. Kids who have been brought up and expect to get their love and understanding from their family, are less likely to go out and look to other people for acceptance.
If this happens in two parent dysfunctional homes, then it has an even higher risk of happening in single parent homes.
You have to realise that most families these days are more dysfunctional than not and attitudes towards a family in the West are very different to what they were. You can't look to them for an adequate comparison of what i'm talking about. All the stuff I said though is what should happen. This is why I said that you would expect everything I wrote in at least an "ok" family environment.

I'd have to ask you more about why you think you're incapable of "romantic" love, though all romantic love is, is love mixed in with lust.
When I said that a mother instills a sense of love in her children, I meant that in the most basic sense. Romantic love is something that comes after "family love" so to speak. One of the things a child will learn from its mother is how to keep a relationship together, rather than let it fall apart due to being emotionally shut off and the like.

But seems society is trying to. A person can't help whom he or she falls for, imo, and this goes for same-gendered couples. If they want to be parents, they should be allowed to...hypothetically speaking.But it still happens. Like if the spouse dies or something, then there really isn't much choice there.Or either the child is weak-minded and wants the attention and approval of his/her peers regardless of how much his/her family obviously loves him/her. IMO, this is extremely normal, now the level of which a child will go is the question.Pretty much, I suppose.I think it's because the idea of marriage, settling down, dating seems overrated to me. I want a child, but not a man to go with it. I had a boyfriend for a year. I never did sleep with him or anything, since the idea of it just semi-repulsed me, even though he was a very nice guy. I would make tons of excuses to get out of it. I pretty much only loved him in a "friendship" sense and seems this has been the case towards any guy I've been around. I could be attracted to the guy, but never want anything more than a friendship. To be honest, I have no idea what's wrong with me.That's funny. I guess it's the other way around for me. I have "familial love", hence my wanting to adopt a child, but haven't much of a desire to have a romantic love, which is why I feel I'm incapable of it.

Ever seen the show Dexter? You should check it out.
I used to be like you though. I just thought anything sexual was over-rated.
Even now i'm very controlled with it, scarily so.

Nono, thats the right way round. Familial love, as you put it, gets instilled first.