Women in Japan
 

Hi, i'm doing a project on the representation of women in Japanese Anime and Japanese Culture, overall? I have been viewing this forum for quite some time as a lover of all things Japanese. I am being asked to gather opinion from the internet, as part of my research and it would be of great help to me if some of you guys could answer the question below.

Has the treatment of Women in Japanese Anime, specifically Studio Ghibli, altered since the 1980’s? Or are Japanese Women’s roles still dictated by male audience’s voyeuristic pleasure? In my opinion, Women are still limited to being portrayed as adolescent schoolchildren; vulnerable, weak and defenceless. Even Miyazaki has come out with defamatory marks when questioned about this: “When a girl is shooting a handgun, it's really something. She shoots a handgun as if she is throwing dishes”, “At first, I thought this is no longer the era of men but after ten years, I grew tired of saying that. I just say "cause I like women." That has more reality.

I feel, even after the modernisation of Japan, women are still inferior and Japan still holds a patriarchal attitude. So what do you think? Do you think the way women are represented in Hayao Miyazaki’s Japanese Anime and the way they are treated in Japanese Culture has shifted, or is Japan still a male-dominant society?


Thank you :rheart:

Why is it Women can say whatever they want about Men but it cant be taken lightly the other way round?
Sure in Japan there may be some voyeuristic pleasure taken from Women but thats because it sells as it does everywhere else. You're telling me that this doesn't happen in other countries too?
Even so, the same works for Males. They are portrayed as something that women might find attractive in cliched roles that require them to be popular.
Anyway, in Anime there are many examples of female roles that don't portray women in a sexist light. Miyazaki almost always uses female roles too and in quite a non-sexist fashion.
What is so patriarchal about Princess Mononoke or Chihiro?

American media is the same way. Very sexist.

And in my opinion there are quite a few portrayals of strong women in Japanese media. Especially Miyazaki's works.

I agree with his complaint, but I definitely don't think it's limited to Japan.

I'll tell you what my observation is.

When it comes to Japan, it seems that gender roles are a lot more established and accepted in their culture.

I don't think that necessarily means that discrimination and objectification of women is more a problem than in the West (as others have said). Though I suppose it would be natural to jump to that conclusion if you look at it from our Western perspective

However, in my opinion the intersting question is, Are gender roles much a problem to Japanese women.

although women are slowly becoming more vocal in their societal roles here, there is still alot of sexist discrimination here. women are still sort of expected to quit their jobs when they get pregnant so that they can stay home and take care of the kids. the wife is expected to serve her husband, but recently this trend has been waning and you can see the results. more women are pursuing their dreams and careers, therefore less women are getting married and having kids and the population decline is a direct result of this...obviously. so you can say women are becoming more independent.

Slow down a minute here.

Has the treatment of Women in Japanese Anime, specifically Studio Ghibli, altered since the 1980’s?

Ghibli movies are almost always about disempowered women finding power. Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, all of them. The example doesn't match the question. On top of that. Miyazaki movies are rarely set IN Japan.

Or are Japanese Women’s roles still dictated by male audience’s voyeuristic pleasure?

Since when have Ghibli movies been about T&A? This question is very strange to me.

In my opinion, Women are still limited to being portrayed as adolescent schoolchildren; vulnerable, weak and defenceless.

Have you watched a Ghibli movie? Totoro, Kiki, Princess Mononoke, Spririted Away... all films about typical girls finding strength in atypical situations.


I feel, even after the modernisation of Japan, women are still inferior and Japan still holds a patriarchal attitude. So what do you think? Do you think the way women are represented in Hayao Miyazaki’s Japanese Anime and the way they are treated in Japanese Culture has shifted, or is Japan still a male-dominant society?

I think you have a lot to learn about Japanese culture. Spend two days in a Japanese household and you will know who the true boss is. Japanese men "traditionally" move out of their homes when then marry. There is always a "mother figure" in thier life. I am sorry, but your old-fashioned theories don't hold water in my book.

Slowly becoming more vocal? Look at the birthrate. Japan is in the middle of a woman's movement. The population capped in 2006 and is now declining for the simple reason that Japanese women are mad as hell, and aren't going to take it anymore. This isn't a slight murmur but a clear and mad roar.

As a middle aged Japanese woman who has husband and two boys, yes. Japanese women are expected to be stuck to their homes with children. But this does not mean Japanese women are treated as "INFERIOR" one.

In Christianity, a woman was created from part of a man by GOD who is also a man. But in Japanese myth, it is a woman (goddess) who created everything. From mountains, human beings and animals.. everything came out of her wombs! sounds fun?

Of course, no Japanese people in 21st century beblieves this as a true story, but this myth story suggests that Japanese men (mostly farmers) have respected and terrified women. We have no histroy to be taught that women are inferior and have to be protected. Housewives in Japan are not treated as inferior ones, and most Japanese husbands fear (rather love) their wives. That's why most Japanese wives choose to stay at home since their homes are rather confortable.

Girls in Japanese anime seem to be (Japanese) boys' dreams who want women to be cute and pretty but can protect boys in case like their mothers.

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When you F*** with the natural order of things, you get population decline.
The women are mad as hell because they want to pursue their lives?
More like they are following a fad that has got their country in deep sh*t.
Japan is now the biggest example to countries that work work work, showing what will happen when people are too busy with their selfish desires to give a damn about anything else i.e. forming a family and working for it.
Sure women should be respected and have an equal role in society but there should be a balance. In places like Japan, this balance has gone out of Whack and other work-a-holic countries like Britain are also following suit.
The only thing that saves Britain is that there is too much unemployment and a lot more ethnic diversity than Japan. The work-a-holic disease hasn't caught on as well as it could. Still I see teachers and civil servants having miscarriages everyday because of the stress they go through because they are off "following their dreams".
What happened to moderation -_-'

I don't get what's wrong with women working. They should be allowed to pursue a career just like a man should be able to. I don't see much wrong with Japanese women wanting more equality and more roles outside of being mothers or housewives. I don't see anything wrong if a woman chooses these roles, but I have a problem with women being expected to take them. I do agree that there should be a balance, so maybe more men should be at home with their kids so that the women can work and pursue careers, if they choose to, and get that "balance" back. I know this isn't going to probably happen anytime soon in places like Japan, though.

Exactly. Why the hell is is selfish of the women to not want to have children, especially when they're expected to be the ones to take care of them. Maybe if the men of Japan want to complain then they can stay home and fix the situation. However, I do believe that it might be becoming somewhat of a fad...things like this are confusing. ><

Women are better with children naturally. That is why it is tradition for women to stay home. You're denying this?

Hey man... you can blame capitalism/economic liberalism. Why should women put themselves out for society when self-interest is the name of the game? When society is not as supportive as it once was? :vsign:

Last I looked, and maybe this is because I live in America, both parents take turns raising their children. In the US, it's almost unheard of for both parents to not be working since most families can't afford to live off of one income, especially if you have children. Getting right down to it, I don't know anyone personally who had a mother who stayed home with the kids, 'cept for those who had government assistance and were "single moms".

For my family, when I was really young, my father was the one to take care of me. He had evening/night jobs whereas my mother always had a daytime job. She was the early bird and he was the night owl. The only time my mother stayed home with me as "stay at home mom", was only for a few months during her pregnancy leave, so of course I don't remember that.

IMO, some traditions are meant to be broken, and it's unfair that women are always going nuts over whether or not to pursue a career, or to become a full-time stay at home mom. Men are almost never faced with this choice. Both parents should take turns, imo, so that both can pursue careers that will benefit the family financially.

You know, this reminds me of the 1985 series Growing Pains. The wife (Maggie) gave up her Journalism career to become a stay at home mother. Once the youngest of her three kids got to a certain age (nine), she decided to go back out to jump start her career. Her husband (Jason), who was a Psychologist, sacrificed his job to do a private practice out of his home so that he could be with the children. They were compromising.

Home Improvement (1991/1992?) was the same way. Jill wanted to go back to school, get her degree and work as a Psychiatrist or counselor. She had three kids and was a "stay at home" mom, but in the later seasons, she did manage to get her degree and get a job as a counselor.

As I said above, I don't see anything wrong with women working, especially if they're married. The woman sacrificed to bear the children, the man could at least be supportive and helpful when it comes to raising them.

OMG those words made me so pissed I didn't even read the rest. Please don't tell me you were implying what I think you were implying.

Good for you.

I never said it was bad for women to get jobs. My mother was a single parent. I know how it goes.
My point is that people need balance. There is none though and that is a problem.
Kids needs both their parents not just one or the other. Its wrong to have a family and lose sight of this.
Women can go do whatever they want but within reason. The same goes for men.
If you think going out and getting laid and drunk every night is "living a dream" though, then in my opinion you are sorely mistaken. This is what eventually many "dreams" become and what I have a problem with.
If on the other hand you really want to make something of your life and want to reach new heights, go for it.
Both of the above require you not to have families though and that brings us back to why Japan has a population crisis.
Is ambition what everybody wants? I doubt it. Hence why I called it a fad. People following what the current "in thing" is, even though its not really anything they'd be happy with in the long run.

Deep down that is always the heart of the matter, the fact society is f****d up, in my opinion.
Even so, should we model ourselves around this kindof society and adapt to it just to find ourselves at a mental evolutionary dead end? Or should we get up and start taking action so we don't become helpless puppets who don't even know what wrong or right is anymore.
I've personally chosen the latter.

ps. I used to love home Improvement lol.

The problem is that women were expected to get an education and start a career, and then give it all up and become housewives until death. With many single females with a large disposable incomes, many industries were created to suck up some of that money. In the end, women said "Why am I giving all this up so my workaholic husband can be away from home 16 hours a day?" You can call that selfishness if you want, I think it is the sign of a need to modernize the culture. You don't see this in America in the same way (though people are waiting longer to get married), because American fathers are expected to help raise the children.

Hehe... I sort of agree with you ivi0nk3y.

Though I wouldn't say I'm really concerned about population decline. Rather I would simply like to see a healthy society. A society where mothers (or fathers) can afford to stay home and raise their children while the other goes off to earn a buck.

Equality does not cause population decline...that's not the natural order of things.

I agree. I'm only worried because so many people use the "equality" card to say there is something wrong, when that isn't the issue. If that fad catches on then we will also be in trouble.

If you're not going to bother to understand what I say, i'm not even going to bother to reply to you in any appropriate format.

Yes and thats my point. Japan is an example of a society where it can be seen that such an attitude creates a problem. It should be a warning to other societies.
As I said before, this hasn't yet occured elsewhere because of factors like unemployment and diversity which have offset what could happen.
So we really shouldn't strive to be LIKE Japan in that area because it has nothing to do with Equality, which is what people erroneously make it about.

Thanks a lot Guys, your replys have been fundemental in shaping my research and giving me human opinion.

:vsign:

yes i know. its a good thing that women are taking back their independence in japan but if it continues the population is projected to decrease to 50 million by 2050? correct me if im wrong. but man...ill be 60 at that time...to think that japan's population will shrink to half its present size is crazy. furthermore...its the motherland...nobody likes to see their race die out. :/

If not a single baby was born in Japan between now and 2050, the population would still be well over 50 million. I think you need to check those numbers.

Population decline can be solved via immigration.

If the Japanese are too proud of their imagined uniqueness to open up a bit more to solve that problem then I won't be sympathetic to any future hardships that Japan has.

I don't even want to get into the anime aspect of this debate. Comparing anime characters with real people makes absolutely no sense. One of them is make believe and the other is real life. 意味がない。

In regards to this debate about women, there is nothing wrong with women pursuing careers. It is also ridiculous to assume that women are better able to raise children. Either gender can be a deadbeat worthless parent or a great parent. そんなことは常識だ。There are women who have joined men in the professional work force and greatly contributed to our societies. We need to let go of our archaic mindset.

Women accomplishments:
1. Eleanor Raymon designed one of the earliest solar homes in 1948.

2. Faye Glenn Abdellah develped the first tested coronary care unit. She also helped changed the focus of nursing from disease to patient centered.

3. Dorothy H. Andersen was a pediatrician and pathologist who was the first to identify cystic fibrosis and develped a simple definitive diagnostic test for the disease.

4. Virginia Apgar was a physician known for development of the Apgar Score in 1952. This system of simple tests is used to determine whether a newborn child requires special medical attention, and it has saved thousands of lives.

5. Betty Bumpers spearheaded an immunization program in her state that became a national model.

6. St. Frances Xavier Cabrini established orphanages, day care centers, schools, clinics and hospitals for immigrants in the United States and around the world.

7. Rachel Carson was a zoologist whose concern over the damaging effects of pesticides and other poisons on the environment led to her groundbreaking work, Silent Spring. The book was a catalyst for the environmental movement of today.

* Women, don't let some idiot tell you that you are more suited for a particular role or naturally suited. Pursue your ambitions as long as they are not criminal or whorish. Also, learn about present-day great women and the great women before you. Malcolm X once said to Blacks that if they didn't know anything about themselves they could never become anything. Well, it is the same with women; of course some women don't have to be told that they are worth something to become great. Througout history women have showed some of us idiotic guys that we don't know what the fuck we are talking about*

Wow you just totally went off on another tangent. Do you ever have any idea of what the context of a thread is when you reply to it?
Noone is telling women that they should stay home. However it is because of the fact that women are going out to work more and more that Japan is in trouble. Also denying that women are not closer to their children, naturally, than fathers, is extreme ignorance.
Did you read anything anyone said before you got on your soap box and started stating achievements by women?
Once more, it doesn't look like it.

I don't think it's the raising of the children that's the issue, but the birthing. That's one thing the ladies have the men beat at.

Yes but its been shown that without adequate child raising methods such as breast feeding, a kid doesn't share a bond with its mother unlike a kid who has been breast fed. Also a father and mother both instill different traits and qualities into a child which make it a whole individual.
Even so, its mostly about why kids aren't being born in Japan that's the problem, more than anything else.

Dammit, you're infinite ignorance amazes me. I tried to be nice but then you come up on here and spew gonorrhea from your mouth. First of all I never attacked you even with your idiotic statements about women. Also, who goes off on tangents? Do you know what that word means? I digressed? The person who started this thread compared anime females to actual Japanese females and here is a comment you made:
Now genius, you tell me who digressed. In addition, you made an uneducated statement based on what? If you can't put up legitimate peer-reviewed studies then silence is the best course of action for you. I posted womens' accomplishments... your point is? Hopefully it helped your misguided ass understand that parenting skills and accomplishments have nothing to do with gender.

Also, Japan is in trouble because women are working more? All right Sherlock you explain to me how academically or don't say anything at all. Furthermore, in all actuality what the fuck do you know about Japanese lifestyle? Don't give me a link to .com or a news website. Put up some serious peer-reviewed data or back your ass up.

Whoa, dude, Kunitokotachi, CHILL OUT.

First, ivi0nk3y didn't say you were attacking him that I saw. Second, your whole post was a little off-the-wall. As far as I saw, no one had been talking about women being inferior or never accomplishing anything or w/e.

Now, I do respect your opinion. But seriously. Chill out.

It has just been an ongoing thing with the guy from a previous post. Ivionk has suggested in previous posts that women should stay in certain roles and that we shouldn't try to alter our thinking. Also, I had never used the word inferior in any of my posts. The guy then starts saying that I got up on my "soap box" and going off on tangents. Like I said this is a continuation from a previous post. My purpose of listing the achievements was to show that more women should aspire to be more than a housewife because they have contributed so much. Anyways, I got a little irked because the guy always runs his mouth without listing any data and seems to come up with silly little come backs like you were off in "never never land," "soap box," He actually says some decent stuff sometimes but with this particular topic... About the attacking portion, I was basically implying that he needed to "chill out" because he was started to get a little rude.

Ah... Well, the thing you need to remember about debating with anyone who is devout (and I mean devout) in Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is that they're all taught that the man is the head of the household. In many cases (I'd say 'most', but I can't back that), people of these faiths take that to the next level: women are supposed to be subservient to men. Since ivi0nk3y is in fact a muslim, you should expect that his views on gender roles are a little more conservative. Even with me, being raised in an obscure sect of Christianity, expect some gender bias (though I've been trying to retrain myself XP ) .

Actually kunitokotachi, ivi0nk3y is right... I've read at least 3 articles on the decline of the Japanese population due to all the factors he stated... And no, they are not .com articles, nor are they not backed with research!

I think the point that you should get from what he's saying is that, we being humans have a sort of obligation to have children and raise a family! Thinking that you shouldn't do that is just selfish. Imagine that if everyone said, oh, well someone else can have children. That will only lead to disaster and the extinction of the human race. If anyone disagrees with that, then I really don’t' have a clue to why it is you are alive...

And again, about the women bringing up children, it is also PROVEN (not that it was ever needed) that women/mothers are naturally better at raising a child. And coming back with something like, anyone of the parents could be a crappy parent is just not the point. There are exceptions to every rule! But, if you come back and prove me that this applies to a percentage higher than 1% then I’ll consider it a possibility!

Yes, you’re right. Women have achieved some great things, and no one is telling them not to! But what does that have to do with anything? Personally I think the fact that a woman raises a child to be a good person is the biggest achievement of all! The fact that a women can give birth is another achievement that we men should be envious of!
So stating everything that women have achieved or men have achieved is nothing compared to the two above!


One other thing. I’ve always wanted to ask this to “Girl Power” extremists like yourself and many of the people here. Why do you think it is that throughout the history of mankind, men and women had their places? Why didn’t men stay at home when the baby was born? AND, why do you believe so strongly that something natural (and normal) is so wrong? I don’t think people like you realise that, apart from the modernized countries, many women still take up the role of being mothers even with an education and a job with a great career. They take a couple of years from their careers to pursue a career that is more fulfilling than any other. I think you guys need to just sit down and think, why has it been like this for millennia’s and why do I feel the urge to suddenly drastically change everything!

I guess that's something that I didn't account for. If that is indeed where he is coming from, I'm not going to step on whatever he believes or interprets as is. I'll just leave the issue alone in his case. I just had a problem with him coming at me like that out of the blue. Maybe it is just a misunderstanding.

Dude, what are you talking about? That has nothing to do with it, and you seriously need to stop mentioning religion in everything because you keep proving that you only know what is taught to you on tv and the internet. Islam has nothing to do with it. If you knew anything about Islam you'd see that in many if not most muslim countries, women DO get an education, women DO pursue careers, women DO have a choice.

Also, saying something like that about him is rather ridiculous since i'm sure he see's his mother as the strongest figure in his life. From what i now about him so far, i've figured that his mother raised him alone whilst working! So equality for women isn't the problem for him as he sees that women can be strong!

Well, if he was "coming out of the blue", then the standpoint of tradition is why it was so sudden. However, just because one holds a traditional standpoint does not mean that one is wrong. Noodle's argument is very sound and quite valid, and it's coming from a completely secular standpoint, even though Noodle is also a muslim. So bear that in mind, also.

Personally, I think I agree with noodle more ;) .

Aaaaah~! I didn't say or even imply that Islamic countries don't educate their women!!! Mer, I think you're jumping to conclusion based on our past discussion :P .

All I said was that those three religions are patriarchal, and a lot of people erroneously take it too far. That's all I said! I was making no assumptions about ivi0nk3y's position or relationships with women. I was only stating that one should expect some gender bias from anyone who is a firm believer in those three faiths.

And having been raised a Christian, this I did not learn from TV. We did actually have quite a few sessions where we contrasted our (correction: 'their') beliefs with those of mainstream Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Despite what I may have said about islamic terrorist organizations or other such things, I'm not COMPLETELY ignorant of Islam and it's more basic principles.

lol. No no... I didn't say you said that about muslim countries. I'm just pointing that out to you to show you that Islam may believe that it's our duty to raise a family and have children but thats about it. It still leaves freedom for women! that was my point!

And yeah, thats what i mean. A believer of those 3 faiths doesn't imply what you've said. It doesn't imply bias views on women in our society!

And i didn't imply you were ignorant, though reading it now i do see why you think that. I'm sorry about that. What i was trying to say is that for you to understand exactly what Islam is about, you'd have to study it well. Not just some lessons here and there from school, or just a little checking on Wiki etc...


EDIT: anyway, i think we should move on from the religion as i thinkt his thread has turnt quiete interesting and i'd hate to see it shut down! Again, sorry for seeming a little "in your face"... reading it back now, it does seem a little agressive!