"White anti-feminist men in Japan"
 

I thought folks here might be interested in this blog post:

steve_s: White anti-feminist men in Japan

It's quite provocative and certainly should generate some interesting discussion!

I'm one of them. Feminism is a cancer. The goal of bringing women into the workforce is a good one, but the path of getting there by casting women as victims of long-standing oppression is wrong, misinformed and harmful to families. The author of your paper himself is apparently unable to distinguish between "anti-feminist" and "misogynistic."

Dude. Don't just link to a blog without having comments on it or putting snips from the blog in your

Anyway, there are a lot of guys out there who like Japanese women who are misogynistic. I'm not one of them. And I think they give guys who like Japanese girls a bad name.

Also, what's up with that "easy" thing that blog talks about?
How the hell is it gonna be easier to get girls in a country other than your own?
They're making it look like a person such as myself would be sad and pathetic to be dating a Japanese girl.

I'd like to have a Japanese girlfriend someday. But I bet it would be pretty difficult in comparison to all the girlfriends I've gotten in my own country.

I agree with this blog's pro-feminist sentiment.
But I'm also sort of vexed by how many people make it appear as if dating a Japanese or Asian is a bad thing. And that being attracted to an Asian = antifeminism.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. Id just like to add that the "easy" thing can be explained by how a normal westerner can be "different" in asia, whilst just-another-loser back home. This can explain it, since "different" often leads to "interesting" which can lead to relationships, etc. This is of course not an universal truth or anything, it's just the way it goes sometimes, I think.

If I may ask, how long have you lived in Japan? Did your views towards feminism contribute to your coming to Japan? Do you feel more comfortable in Japan with your views than in your home country?

Didn`t read the original blog post - I`m not going to waste my time.

But I will pipe in and said that I`m an anti-feminist female in Japan.
I`m an egalitarian.

Equality is, well, different but equal. Feminism ends up meaning "Equal in status, but better in every way than those nasty men!" Feminism calls for all the benefits of equal status, but with special allowances and bonuses because you`re female.

It`s misandry, plain and simple.

Did being an anti-feminist female lead you to come to Japan? Do you find Japan more comfortable for anti-feminist women?

Can I ask why you believe that feminism has inequality as its philosophical basis? Did you base this belief on something you read or experienced? I'd be interested in knowing.

I don`t believe that was anywhere near the forefront of my reasoning, although at this point I`m sure it does have something to do with the way I think. Being as I`ve lived here for 10 years now and all...

I wouldn`t know, as I`ve never lived elsewhere as an adult. I don`t feel threatened or looked down on though.

Personal experience. Media. Speaking to other western women in and out of Japan. Encounters with other mothers who love to gawk if I express support for my husband.

Check the answer to the above.
If things are so equal - where are all the positive depictions of men? Where is the support for women who don`t choose to be "superior", or who don`t choose to belittle their husbands? Where is all the cultural support for mothers who make the choice to stay home, or who wish they didn`t have to "do it all"?

A lovely example is to look at the popular western female`s opinion of the women in Japan... That they`re all oppressed and held down by the men - without ever bothering to actually look at the fact that the "oppression" is an active choice made by women. Staying at home is the best-case-scenario in most cases. It`s the dream women strive for. Not the "My husband won`t let me work" everyone loves to jump to conclusions about.

As stated in a previous post, anti-feminism is not misogyny. But there is no feminism without misandry. Therefore, I will never think of myself as a feminist, but instead as an egalitarian.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were Japanese. I assumed you were foreign, but that was obviously an incorrect assumption on my part.

I assume that from your post you are a stay-at-home mother. I'm curious, how have Western women belittled your decision? Did these women say that they were feminists?

Do you believe that the "dream" that many women have to have children and stay at home with them is biologically determined from birth, or socially constructed? How do you feel about married couples in which the wife works outside of the home and the husband stays at home with the children and performs domestic duties? How do you feel about women who choose not to have children? How do you feel about women who do not want a husband?

In what ways do you "support" your husband?

Just trying to get a better understanding.

I never said I was Japanese - Just that I`ve lived here for a very long time now.

Yes, yes, and yes. I have been told multiple times that I should be ashamed of myself for "putting myself last", "wasting my education" and "letting myself be a 'prisoner' of my husband." Etc etc
All by non-Japanese women, who made it very clear they were strong feminists.

Both. But neither makes it oppression. Feminism was supposed to open doors and make it possible for a woman to make her own choices. Instead, it has just changed the right choice. If you don`t make that choice, you`re being oppressed... Because, well, there is no way any woman would really choose that sort of path.

If it is what is good for their family, and it is a choice they made, then I have absolutely nothing against it.

That is entirely their choice, which they should be free to make.

Same as above.

Somewhere along the line you are interpreting "anti-feminism" as believing women should be stuck in "traditional" roles.
That isn`t what it means. Recall that I said I was egalitarian - look it up. That means I believe in equality (with both negative and positive aspects), and freedom of choice without being looked down upon for those choices.
Feminism does not offer this.

By cooking, cleaning, maintaining our household, and just generally being appreciative of the fact that he is the one out there working his butt off supporting us. It`s more attitude than specific actions. Staying at home is the easier path, despite what anyone may say.

It always amuses me that Japan is considered a "patriarchal society". I have found the men that act the "toughest" are usually puppies around their wives or mothers, and their bravado and boasting is limited to certain circles. Traditionally, Japanese men are literally handed from their mothers to their wives...or the wife lives in the same home with his parents.

This is a traditional, and old-fashioned perspective, but not unheard of even today.

Quixote, I'll answer your question by replying to Nyororin's post with a big YES!

Equality of access and opportunity (along with responsibility) is a vital goal for our modern society, now that talent (and not force of arms, as in the past!) is the key to success. But the feminist narrative tries to get there by casting women as victims and men as ogres. That path is harmful and destructive, and many lies have been told in the service of that narrative.

Japan has barely tapped the huge talent of its female workforce. That is one of its biggest failings.

Feminism is the reason women can do all the things they can do today. It absolutely disgusts me that women can even consider it has ever being a bad thing. Women died to give us the right to do things that men can, such as vote, and I think that saying being against that is just offensive. Feminism is not about being better than men, it's about being equal. There are extremist feminists who believe that they are better, and those are the ones that get the most media attention. And if you believe that every feminist is a radical one, then you are sadly mistaken. Women still face discrimination today and it's still very real. Just because it doesn't effect you in your country doesn't mean feminists can't campaign for people outside their own country. I think people are taking a very ignorant view of feminism, and basically don't have a clue about it.
And it did? You are doing exactly what you want. Without feminists, you wouldn't be. When women were opressed, they had to stay at home. They didn't have the right to vote, or wear certain clothing, or not have kids. They had no choice between working and staying at home. Now you have a choice to either stay at home, which you are doing, or go to work which you don't want to do. I don't know what kind of people you have talked to, but if they are condemning you for making a choice to stay at home, then I wouldn't call them proper feminists. I can understand why you may feel resentment towards people who look down on you for looking after your children, but please don't consider all feminists to be that way.

Are you only referring to modern day feminists, or feminists that have done things for us in the past, or both? Women have been the victims of long standing opression, and are still facing it today. I don't know how much you know about the opression of women, but I've studyed it for a long time and I know it still happens. I'm not sure about Japan, so if that's what you are referring to then it's not my place to say, but if you think everything is fine and dandy for women all over the world then I'll have to disagree. I agree that people shouldn't go about what they want by making out women are the victims of men [even though in some middle east countries, they are] but in our society it's not the case anymore. I think you'll find the feminists you are talking about are radical feminists, the ones that get all the media attention, and to judge all feminists on their beliefs would be like judging a muslim by extremist muslim terrorists. Not a good idea, I'm sure you'll agree.

Oh god, not you in the feminist thread again haha xD Can tell this is going to be a barrel of laughs since your like a big feminist hater >.<

Yeah I tried not to get involved with this thread because I'm really passionate about this stuff so I don't want to bite people's heads off and respect their differences in opinion! Lol xD

In any case, you are all referring to RADICAL feminists, which are very extremist, but let me assure you that they make up only a small percentage of actual feminists. On most things I do not agree with radical feminists, in which case we all agree. I think people are getting entirely the wrong impressions since radical feminists are basically the only ones you see on the media because of their extreme views.

Can I ask why you hate feminists?

Also, do you live in Japan? If so, did this influence your decision to come to Japan?

MissMisa, have you or do you live in Japan? If so, based on your own experience, do you find that Japan has more men with anti-feminist / misogynistic views than your home country?

No, I don't live in Japan, I live in England. In England to find someone who is anti-feminist is quite rare, as there is a lot of English history behind feminism which I think people who are knowledgeable about it really appreciate. Those people do exist in England but as far as I know it's quite uncommon to find someone with those views. A lot of men joke about women in such a manner but I don't think they actually believe we shouldn't have equal rights.

Have you ever lived in Japan?

What kind of jokes do you mean?

No I haven't lived in Japan.

Well they just joke about women being their 'bitch' and how they can have sex with any of them and so on. I think it's just one of the 'lad' kind of jokes, but if you asked them I think very few of them would say that they believe women shouldn't be able to work/vote etc. There are also jokes about men too, like being drunk/stupid/clumsy and so on, so I don't take either too seriously.

I'm personally not a fan of "different but equal".
I dislike gender roles. But the equal part is fine.

Racialists will say the same about race.
That the races are different but equal.
Personally I don't like the sound of that.

By the way there are many types of feminism.
Many of them I consider egalitarianism, some I do not.

I think there's a difference between men who are anti-feminist and and men who are against equal rights.

Feminism has certain images associated with it which aren't all appealing, I think there a lot of men that are anti-feminist in this regard. But that doesn't mean they've ever questioned womens rights.

Well, I'm mostly concerned about modern "victim feminists," the ones who claim, for example, that 20% or 30% of women have been raped at some point in their lives (the claim is false, and probably a deliberate lie).

But the problem for me is the idea that "women have been oppressed for thousands of years," and at last women have courageously won their freedoms, and now we men owe you big time. This line of thought can be easily dismantled.

First, we have to distinguish between two types of societies:
1) Modern nation-states like the United States, where slavery is illegal, the judiciary is largely independent, a culture of adherence to the law prevails, peaceful dispute mechanisms exist, soldiers stay in their barracks and borders are well defined and secure.

2) The world as it was from the development of agriculture to the first world war: No international law, in many cases no law of any sort as we would recognize it, shifting borders, daily violence, constant warfare.

Feminists claim they've been oppressed, but how can that be? Women were never forced to go to war. Men were. Women did not have to defend their households with their lives. Men did. If a woman was accosted in the market, who took vengeance? Her husband, or her brother. Women have always been PROTECTED by men.

Women's quest for meaningful jobs today is a real one, and an important one, but it is also recent. The word had no meaning in traditional agricultural/industrial societies, when all work was a horror chamber.

Did women have hard lives? Oh yes. Harder than men's? Hell, no. Not by a long, long shot.

And that is why, across the face of this vast Earth and throughout all recorded history, there are no records of a feminist revolution anywhere. None.

...Until the late 19th to early 20th century, when the following happened.

1. Women asked men for the vote.
2. Men, surprised to hear that they wanted it, gave it to them.
3. Er, that's it.

Not a shot fired. Revolution, indeed!

Just a general question for the men here who have identified as anti-feminist and live or have lived in Japan: do you feel that Japan is a more comfortable place for you than your home countries?

Types of feminism I agree with:

Amazon feminism:
The type of feminism that rejects the gender role of women as the weaker sex.
It lays focus on the power of women. It seeks to promote female athleticism and warriorhood, and other things that have to do with physical strength and skill. And in such steering society towards one where women can stand on the same ground as men. The amazon feminists' dream is for a day when all sports are co-ed and women can still do as well and win as much as the men, and where women are in the draft.

Gender feminism:
Also known as equity feminism. This is a type of feminism that focuses on equality, and has no misandrous undertones. And like amazon feminism, a main target is gender roles.

Equality feminism:
Pretty much the same thing as gender and equity feminism.
It's anti-gender roles and anti-misandry.

Sex-positive feminism:
It believes that sex is ok for a woman and criticizes Victorian morals applied to women as much as the porn industry. And that the acceptance of porn and as loose sexual lifestyle being accepted is more forward than rejection of pornography based on inequality within the genre. Sex-positive feminists seek to work with a growingly sex-positive world and work to make it more equal for women. For instance, pornography that can appeal to women better instead of being universally patrifocal, and the end to the studs vs. sluts double standard.

Postmodern feminism:
Has a large focus on gender and language. But I have been told it has quite a different interpretation of how language should be changed to create a more equal world. One that I appear to agree more with. Instead of just outright saying "don't say that" it works with the context of language and how the meaning of words change. For instance, probably less likely to use the word womyn because the meaning wife-man is no longer commonly known or meant when saying it.

Types of feminism I don't agree with:

Fat feminism:
Just an excuse for fat people to be feminist. These are the people criticizing Fat Princess. And while they make a point that women are more objectified than men, discrimination is just a part of that bigger problem. And they're just using an excuse to be fat.

Difference feminism:
I'm completely at odds with the idea that "women are different, but equal or better". This ideology seeks to praise the things that are percieved as good or better about women. It's often misandrous, and often becomes separatist feminism.

Separatist feminism:
I dislike any separation of the sexes. All girl-schools, and ect. And separatist feminism, like the name implies, is where women and men live as separately as possible. Imagine a world like Magical Girl Squad Alice. And being separatist feminism, this often lends itself to lesbianism, asexuality, and even misanthropy.

Lesbian feminism:
Really, it's just an excuse for man-hating lesbians to say they're feminists.
These people are often separatist feminists, of course. Now I don't have anything wrong with lesbians or any GLBT people, personally I think we're all deep down, innately bisexual. But I don't agree with lesbian feminism.

Religious and ethnic feminism:
Really, it's just a way to bring unnecessary cultural elements into a political ideology which has no cultural affiliations and needs none called feminism.

Radical feminism:
Radical feminism is the ideology that capitalism is inherently sexist, and of course, must be overthrown. Now, I'm a socialist myself, even. But I think big business has nothing to do with sexism. While it's true that since big businesses popped up in a time that was sexist and women weren't allowed involvement, that doesn't make the system itself sexist.

There is nothing at all wrong with a women staying at home, and a man going to work, if that's what they both to want to do. What the actual problem is, is not having that choice. That's what women fought for, and that's what we get in more devoped countries.

As for, 'will it stop,' to be honest Josh, I don't think it will. Even though things have changed vastly for developed countries, there will always be discrimination in places there because the world isn't perfect.

As for feminists in devoped countries, they are allowed to speak out, and speak out for the women who are not allowed.

I don't think you really know that much about the opression of women to be honest. Of course many men went through horrible suffering too. I am completely against any type of descrimination or gender roles, and that includes men.

Many men did not want women to have the vote. If they just gave it to us, then the suffragettes would not have existed. Feminists are not all women, many men are also feminists too, and were also very supportive of the suffragettes. It was not a case of men vs women, it was a case of them vs authority who believed that women's opinions were less valid and were less intelligent, therefore making their vote innaccurate. This is obviously not the case. After a long struggle, many protests, and hunger strikes, the women finally did get the vote. After a women chucked herself under the kings horse to draw attention to the cause. We did not just get it like that.

Im a dude and Id love to find a woman who could bring home the bacon on her salary alone. That way Id be the house husband. Id clean and cook, and look after the kids. Then when they get old enough to go to school Id play tennis at the local rec club, go shopping midday and chat with friends over tea.

Why not stop looking at gender to begin with, and actually look at ability?
Because in my mind, that`s what it boils down to. I DON`T agree with "Amazon" feminism, because it pushes women as something they are not - ie. the stronger sex. Gender roles don`t just drop out of the sky one day - they are usually founded in some level of fact. When it comes to body size and muscular development, men do have the genetic advantage.

If a woman is indeed on equal ground with a man in sports or some activity, then she should be given all the same opportunities to compete as men. But the fact of the matter is that in a lot of cases, that is just not true. You end up with women who want to be put into places even when they AREN`T just as strong or just as capable. And that is not true equality. If a man is indeed more capable, then there is no reason his spot should be given up just so a woman can get it.

Sex-positive feminism is fine and all in regards to not discouraging sex for women - but somehow manages to completely miss out on the fact that the female brain is wired differently when it comes to sexual stimulation. Saying that the porn industry is biased toward males is just silly - I could make the same argument and say that the romance novel industry is biased toward females. There is a reason for this. In general, men find straight sexual imagery stimulating, while women find more subtle and romantic "thoughts" to be arousing. Pushing pornos for women is like pushing romance novels for men.

I usually find that the word "feminism" is used to push some form of female superiority... Otherwise why not refer to it as egalitarian?

The groups who fought in the past for equality for women can not, and should not, be compared with the modern groups that fly the flag of feminism. Every group that has done something good in the past should not be given a free pass for any wrongs committed in the future by those who use the same name. (Although the groups in the past weren`t really calling themselves feminists to begin with...)

I somewhat agree with you on this point. But not all feminists whine about nothing. There are still real issues in the world that need changing, and that's the reason why feminists do still exist. I'm not talking about the ones who whine about nothing important, I'm talking about the ones that get stuck in with real issues that matter, such as a women's right to education in the middle east, a women's right to speak out, a women's right to not be forced into marriage, and so on. Of course, there are issues for men too, they should not be forced to marry either, and so on, and all these issues are important and do need to be delt with in some way or another.

I don't believe that feminists are trying to say women are better. Maybe your experiances are different to mine, but I've never encountered a feminist women who thought they are better than a man. That's not really the point in the feminist movement, and never was. Those kind of people are not what a feminist should be like - there are bad apples within every organisation. As for the word 'feminism' I don't really think that promotes that women are better. but that depends how you want to interpret it. There are many men feminists too who are not put off by the term.

Go for it! Gender roles work in both ways, and it would be perfectly fine if that's what you wanted to do with your life. Nobody should say that because you are man you should go out and work - as long as someone is looking after the children, and someone is earning money, gender is totally irrelevant.

It's about steering things to a more equal left with culture.
Women will never become as strong as men if we don't nurture it.

There are several animal species that women are socially and physically dominant. It would take many thousands of years, but if women took up athleticism as much as men, they would eventually make it to our level.

Miss Misa, can you explain how women suffered more than men did in preindustrial societies? Remember, feminism is RECENT. History tells us of slave revolts, peasant revolts, revolts of conquered provinces against conquering countries. Female revolts against men? Not a whisper until about 1880.

So what do you make of that?

Are you telling me women are cowards, people of no account, who wanted to rebel but had no courage to do so, and only waited until it was easy? (That's certainly not my view.)

Or should we conclude that women never rebelled because, compared to their men dying on the battlefield every day, they had a good, relatively safe life, and they knew it. (That is my view.)

Take your pick.

I didn't say that women suffered more than men. I said they suffered.

I suppose because of a few reasons.
1. Because feminists started the idea toward gender equality.
2. Because just saying egalitarianism or equalism alone is not specific enough.
When you say egalitarianism or equalism, you could be talking about anything.
When you say feminism, you know you're talking about gender equality.
3. If you say gender egalitarianism or equalism, well that's just too long an inconvenient.

Well in some places in the middle east, it is bad for men but way worse for women. They are regularly abused by their husbands, they don't really have a right to education and they don't have any choices and no open doors. I'm not saying we should concentrate on women, and fuck the men, there are orgnisations that help both genders, but feminism is just concentrating the womens rights.

Women care about women in other countries. They see women suffering and they want to do something. I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

Feminists can't do everything. They are only concentrating on gender equality - that's what they stand for. It doesn't mean they don't give a fuck about anything else, a person can be two things at once. It's like people campaigning for black rights, it doesn't mean they are only thinking of black people and don't give a fuck about other races.

So women suffered no more than men (much less, truth be known), yet men were the oppressors and women the oppressed? I don't understand.

I didn't even said men were the oppressors. However, all men aren't the same person, the same as all women aren't the same person. There have been women opressors and men opressors. Just seems like there have been more men. Feminism is not women being oppressed by men. It's women being a oppressed in any way, by anything, be it society's views as a whole, the government, dictators, or anything else that might have an impact in a women's right to choose the same path as a man. It is not, and never has been, women whining about men. If you think that's the case, you clearly have the wrong impression of what feminism is.

But unfortunately, we aren`t the only ones who have this "wrong" idea about what feminism is.

Defending feminism ends up feeling like defending communism. Yes, the ideas at the core are not bad ideas. The people who thought of them and started the movements did wonderful things for their people... But does it work in the real world? No. Is that the fault of the initial leaders? The fault of those who truly believe in the cause and core?
No.
It`s the misinterpretation and exploitation of the system by others. By the majority.

I dislike feminism because the word has come to represent not the core thoughts and ideals, but the general expression of the movement by the majority. And that majority is not going about it in the right way.
Of course those who are at the core, who remain true to the ideals are just fine. But they`re not the majority, and they aren`t what represents feminism in my eyes.

The meaning of words change over time - feminism is shifting from meaning equality to being a shield for misandry.

Where are all the feminists who believe in equality when a man is wronged in favor of a woman? Where are they all when women cheat, lie, and steal from their husbands - then go on to be awarded the house, car, and kids just because, well, they`re the "weak" woman who needs it to live?
The women I have known in my life who have called themselves feminists used it as nothing more than a title to declare that they were "conquering" men. To me, that is what feminism represents - and it is not something I will ever say I support.

Well since you are obviously aware that kind of feminism is not actually the point, nor is it feminism at all, then there is no point in me trying to convince you otherwise. I am one of the people you are describing, who do believe in equality when a man is wronged too. I don't know how many people are like me, and I can't speak for them.

Well I believe all those women are not feminists.

Yes just like I believe that a ´terrorist´ can never be muslim so there is no such thing as ´islamic´ terrorism and that zionists can never be jewish......

I never understood that people acknowledge that they are not what they claim they are yet still prefer calling ´them´ that what they are absolutely not...´hey what you stand for and do really has nothing to do with communism, but I still consider you a communist though´ (insert feminism etc) that kind of twisted logic really doesn´t make any sense.

basically you(not you but others) just keep the ignorancy alive.