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XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 10:38 PM
400gb blu-ray disc works on current players
 
the new 16 layer blu-ray disc by Pioneer has been proven to work on current blu-ray players, including the PS3.

They won't be available until 2010 though. Just in time for Hideo Kojima's (KONAMI) next game.

400gb.... how many XBOX 360 discs (DVD's) is that?!

any thoughts...
I'm personally still wondering exactly where video games can go from here.

Pioneer shows off 16-layer 400GB Blu-ray Disc, affirms compatibility with current players - Engadget

SHAD0W 12-03-2008 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 637957)
400gb.... how many XBOX 360 discs (DVD's) is that?!
A fair few I imagine but no-one is going to make use of the extra 300 or so GB's cuz since all the games come out on xbox anyways then their gonna have to be equal unless you want Snake's next outing's cutscenes to be comparable to lord of the rings in length and excitement.. groan.

Before you start, I have all 3 current gen consoles.. so yeah.. hush.

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 10:52 PM
I have the 360, and I still hate it. I bought it fro Star Ocean 4, which releases in March, I've played all the the multi-platform games that my friends have on the 360 that I have the ps3 counter-part to and I prefer the ps3 version better.

anyways, this isn't about which console you prefer.

I really didn't mind the lengthy cut-scenes in MGS4, the story was really intriguing, well inter-woven with the series, and well-written, that's all that matters.

LittleBigPlanet was pushing 40gb, so in theory, it's not that far-fetched a good portion of these discs could be used.

cridgit001 12-03-2008 11:00 PM
Things will go to digital distribution way before we come close to 400 gigs with games.

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 11:05 PM
as you know, Polyphonic digital displayed GT5 in 2160p, which is double the aspect ratio of current full HD, it was run by using 4 ps3's, each one responsible for running 1/4 of the display.

Moore's law states that processing power doubles every 18 months. So in theory, it's possible to have games that top 400gb by next gen, the technology should exist by then

ivi0nk3y 12-03-2008 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cridgit001 (Post 637967)
Things will go to digital distribution way before we come close to 400 gigs with games.
Why do you say that?

SHAD0W 12-03-2008 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cridgit001 (Post 637967)
Things will go to digital distribution way before we come close to 400 gigs with games.
not if us nerds have our way!

400GBs though.. thats half the HDD on my PC! I dont know what they would do with all that space though..

LBP2 - Not So Small Anymore!

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 11:11 PM
yea, seriously.

I like LBP but I personally don't think it's a console seller like SONY thought.

anywho, I wonder how big Heavy Rain will be... it's looks pretty intense.

Tyrien 12-03-2008 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAD0W (Post 637959)
A fair few I imagine but no-one is going to make use of the extra 300 or so GB's cuz since all the games come out on xbox anyways then their gonna have to be equal unless you want Snake's next outing's cutscenes to be comparable to lord of the rings in length and excitement.. groan.

Before you start, I have all 3 current gen consoles.. so yeah.. hush.
You obviously don't understand the difference between a DVDs structure, and Blu-rays. DVDs read data faster near the center of the disc and slower near the outside. Blu-ray reads constant across all of that. One of the things developers do to combat the slower-load time of the PS3 1x blu-ray drive have the same data multiple times on the disc. PS3 games in general tend to take up more space on the blu-ray than their 360 counterpart because of this. Also there's compression to consider. This is especially true for audio compression. 7.1 surround sound to be exact. Heavenly Sword also filled over 10GB in audio alone.

Shouldn't be saying that won't be used either. Kojima managed to almost fill an entire 50GB blu-ray with all the cut scenes and HD audio. Even more space would allow for multiple language options on the same disc, as well as extra content like making of, and bonus features to grant a greater draw to buy the game. So it's meaningless information for 360, but opens up more possiblities for PS3 developers.

SHAD0W 12-03-2008 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien (Post 637977)
You obviously don't understand the difference between a DVDs structure..
You lost me at that point. Too long, didn't read.

MMM 12-03-2008 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 637971)
Why do you say that?
Look at the music biz, the PS3 store, The Wii's virtual console and the X-Box 360 store. All these devices have hard drives, and imagine the savings by eliminating retailers and physical discs as delivery systems.

SHAD0W 12-03-2008 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 637985)
Look at the music biz, the PS3 store, The Wii's virtual console and the X-Box 360 store. All these devices have hard drives, and imagine the savings by eliminating retailers and physical discs as delivery systems.
Someone should employ you. get a copyright on that idea pronto!

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 11:35 PM
imagine the wreck that would cause, by eliminating the retailers from the loop and physical discs, you're killing alot of businesses such as gamestop.

I doubt it'll go digital anytime before the generation after next if it does.

digital is ok, but I prefer to have something physical to claim.

cridgit001 12-03-2008 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 637970)
as you know, Polyphonic digital displayed GT5 in 2160p, which is double the aspect ratio of current full HD, it was run by using 4 ps3's, each one responsible for running 1/4 of the display.

Moore's law states that processing power doubles every 18 months. So in theory, it's possible to have games that top 400gb by next gen, the technology should exist by then
Processing power might but that doesn't mean that game data will. I don't think developers will actually need that much space for a game. It wouldn't be financially smart because think of how long the development would be for the game. If it takes a year or so for a 10-40 gig game today, how long will it take if they are trying to fill even 250-300 gigs? Not to mention how much the games would cost to the consumers, like $150 bucks. Even with all the "extra features", I wouldn't want to be stuck in a game for months on end.

For movie wise, anything over 1080p isn't really necessary for things smaller than 40 inches. There would be no point in 2160p because the human eye couldn't tell the difference on a screen that is only 40 or smaller inches.

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 11:38 PM
the point isn't TO make a game that big, it's just nice knowing that if a developer just happened to be making a kick-ass game, that the space is there if necessary.

true but a scientist in Japan made a display that is currently over 60 times better than current 1080p. It's true nothing like that will be commercially available ANYtime soon, but it's been done, it's just the feeling of accomplishment.

ivi0nk3y 12-03-2008 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 637985)
Look at the music biz, the PS3 store, The Wii's virtual console and the X-Box 360 store. All these devices have hard drives, and imagine the savings by eliminating retailers and physical discs as delivery systems.
Yes but that doesn't mean hard copies of games still won't be available?

Look at unreliability of storage systems, website crashes and product failures to name but a few problems.

These negatives will never be eliminated because if they were, the consoles would have to be almost militaristic in their efficiency and reliability.
As it stands, most consoles are cutting edge and pushing boundaries at every release date. It is unrealistic to assume that somehow the economy will improve so much that making an 'indestructible console' would be viable.

So no, I don't think digital distribution is that close to becoming a reality.

MMM 12-03-2008 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 637999)
Yes but that doesn't mean hard copies of games still won't be available?

Look at unreliability of storage systems, website crashes and product failures to name but a few problems.

These negatives will never be eliminated because if they were, the consoles would have to be almost militaristic in their efficiency and reliability.
As it stands, most consoles are cutting edge and pushing boundaries at every release date. It is unrealistic to assume that somehow the economy will improve so much that making an 'indestructible console' would be viable.

So no, I don't think digital distribution is that close to becoming a reality.
But look at the music business. You can say the exact same thing about CDs. And when I buy a game from my 360 Wii or PS3 a record is kept of that, so if I lose my hard drive, I can redownload for free.

SHAD0W 12-03-2008 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 637998)
the point isn't TO make a game that big, it's just nice knowing that if a developer just happened to be making a kick-ass game, that the space is there if necessary.
400GB wont be nessesary because games developers of today are too lazy to make anything decent. Most people are just throwing any old crap together cuz they know it will sell. Any FPS will sell on the PS3/360 same as any *waggle* cutsie game on the wii so why would they bother?

If you gonna argue about the FPS comment, look at your games library for the current gen.. what genre of game do you have the most of? Exactly.

All you gotta do is look at Pokemon Battle Revolution and you know they aint gonna bother making a game like that. While im on the topic, to say Pokemon is one of nintendo's biggest franchises, why dont they put the effort in?

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 11:49 PM
even with today's download speeds and the growing size of games, would you rather have a hard copy of LittleBigPlanet and pop in the disc, or re-download a 40gb file?

Hard copies will be around for a while..

and the comparison to music is completely different. plus think about bandwidth limits from certain ISP's...

MMM 12-03-2008 11:53 PM
I have never had to redownload a game, and reading from a hard drive will always be faster than reading off a disc.

I am not saying hard copies will be completely eliminated, but digital delivery is the way of the future, and the foundations are already being laid down.

cridgit001 12-03-2008 11:56 PM
America's ISP's are retarded. I hate Comcast with a passion because of their, "We want to stop piracy so you only get 250 gigs per month".

On the download speed part, Japan has rolled out a 1 gig/per second backbone so LittleBig Planet would be downloaded in under a minute. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

XjapanFOREVER 12-03-2008 11:58 PM
Even though you haven't had to re-download something, doesn't mean someone else hasn't.

it may be faster, but reliability is always an issue.

did I mention that a 1TB disc drive is in the works? the I/O rate is going to be around 100MB/sec.
Want a 1TB optical drive? Call/Recall me • The Register

Quote:
Originally Posted by cridgit001 (Post 638010)
On the download speed part, Japan has rolled out a 1 gig/per second backbone so LittleBig Planet would be downloaded in under a minute. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
That's just Japan, gaming is a world-wide industry.
Someone at Square was just saying at TGS how Japan has lost the edge on gaming, and they're trying to get that back. It's good Japan has it, but most game developers are looking at the broader spectrum. more money

cridgit001 12-04-2008 12:19 AM
Well yeah, I was just saying that that speed of transfer is out there on the commercial market. The fastest I have had is 1.6 mb/sec download. Anyway, here is an article I found about the 400 gig disk, IGN Advertisement

ivi0nk3y 12-04-2008 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 638004)
But look at the music business. You can say the exact same thing about CDs. And when I buy a game from my 360 Wii or PS3 a record is kept of that, so if I lose my hard drive, I can redownload for free.
What can I say about CDs? I don't see CDs going out of business anytime soon at all, let alone DVDs.
Digital distribution is only "the way" cos companies need a slicker way to combat piracy lol.
As for re-downloading, what you gonna do if ur hard drive fails, which it does a lot of the time? Got electronic receipts for that? Gonna burn a hard copy of your game just to make sure you don't have to spend hours re-downloading a game?

I dunno if you're aware but broadband isn't exactly becoming advanced either, with most companies only offering an allocated amount of bandwidth every month, unless you pay much more for your 'plan'.

Either way, it is not at all a thing of the future and will only be pushed as something akin to this by people who support things like DRM and so on. It is much more effective to encode a certain "download" with anti-piracy, than a CD or DVD.

I will always want a hard copy of my movies, games & music simply because I collect them.
Not everyone is like this but there is plenty of reason for Digital Distribution to be nothing more than 'another option'.

ps. the storage solution of the future is SOLID STATE TECHNOLOGY. Right now its too expensive though.

Tyrien 12-04-2008 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cridgit001 (Post 638010)
On the download speed part, Japan has rolled out a 1 gig/per second backbone so LittleBig Planet would be downloaded in under a minute. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Hi, please learn how transfer rates work before you try and use them in arguements. It's noy Gigabyes per second, it;s Gigabits. 8 bits are in a byte. That would mean (for argument sake) LBP's 40GB would take about 5 minutes and 30 seconds.

This is however assume you're getting a perfect connection to the download server, and the sever you're downloading from can upload at 1Gbps, which I doubt it will, and you're never, ever going to get a perfect connection. Not to mention it's impossible for an ISP to throttle it's speed exactly, and speeds are always "up to". You also have to take into accounts the limit of your ethernet adapter, which the standard currently is a 100Mbps network. Don't forget it's also dependant on your computers specs, and location.

So after all that you're realistically looking at a 50~100Mbps download which would translate into anywhere from 1 to 2 hours. Still fast but don't argue with distorted values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 637985)
Look at the music biz, the PS3 store, The Wii's virtual console and the X-Box 360 store. All these devices have hard drives, and imagine the savings by eliminating retailers and physical discs as delivery systems.
True. However with the state of broadband connection speeds and prices it's not vaiable yet as an end-all answer. I don't think DD will "take over" for a very long time. At best it will become a viable alternative that's embraced for consumers. Physical storage will still be around.

Personally I hat ethe idea of having an entire digital movie collection and video games.

ivi0nk3y 12-04-2008 12:42 AM
SOLID

STATE

TECHNOLOGY

:ywave:

Tyrien 12-04-2008 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 638032)
SOLID

STATE

TECHNOLOGY

:ywave:
currently has a poor transfer rate compared to optical storage mediums.

or rather, SATA, and eSATA are used internally due to power consumption. There's no external use for them currently like an SD card.

ivi0nk3y 12-04-2008 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien (Post 638051)
currently has a poor transfer rate compared to optical storage mediums.
Lol. No it has a poor transfer rate because the interface itself is a bottleneck.

Obviously USB 2.0 is no speed demon compared with internal devices.

Anyway they have put SCSI and SATA 2 Interfaces on such devices but they cost a bomb.

XjapanFOREVER 12-04-2008 01:48 AM
I've never really looked into SST, any semi-easy to understand articles about it for us semi-technical folk?

I couldn't agree with Tyrien more, digital collections are cool, but it just isn't the same, alot of people complained when X released I.V. as an iTunes single instead of a physical single, one reason could be the highest quality available on iTunes is 320 mp3.

also, with the increasing size of games, imagine the HDD you would have to have to store multiple games on it. A couple TB if you want a decent collection of PS3 games.

cridgit001 12-04-2008 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien (Post 638027)
Hi, please learn how transfer rates work before you try and use them in arguements. It's noy Gigabyes per second, it;s Gigabits. 8 bits are in a byte. That would mean (for argument sake) LBP's 40GB would take about 5 minutes and 30 seconds.

This is however assume you're getting a perfect connection to the download server, and the sever you're downloading from can upload at 1Gbps, which I doubt it will, and you're never, ever going to get a perfect connection. Not to mention it's impossible for an ISP to throttle it's speed exactly, and speeds are always "up to". You also have to take into accounts the limit of your ethernet adapter, which the standard currently is a 100Mbps network. Don't forget it's also dependant on your computers specs, and location.

So after all that you're realistically looking at a 50~100Mbps download which would translate into anywhere from 1 to 2 hours. Still fast but don't argue with distorted values.


True. However with the state of broadband connection speeds and prices it's not vaiable yet as an end-all answer. I don't think DD will "take over" for a very long time. At best it will become a viable alternative that's embraced for consumers. Physical storage will still be around.

Personally I hate the idea of having an entire digital movie collection and video games.
*White flag* I had no intention of getting into an argument with an IT guy. You bring some good points and shoot down my own which I'm cool with.

Still though, DD is handy when I don't feel like going to game stop or best buy. One note on the, "needing terabytes to get a decent collection of games". If the Moore's Law holds, (which supposedly, in processors, they are going to hit a wall in size(nanometers wise) around 2020) 10 Terabyte HDD's wouldn't be out of the ordinary when the next consoles roll around.

Tyrien 12-04-2008 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cridgit001 (Post 638067)
*White flag* I had no intention of getting into an argument with an IT guy. You bring some good points and shoot down my own which I'm cool with.

Still though, DD is handy when I don't feel like going to game stop or best buy. One note on the, "needing terabytes to get a decent collection of games". If the Moore's Law holds, (which supposedly, in processors, they are going to hit a wall in size(nanometers wise) around 2020) 10 Terabyte HDD's wouldn't be out of the ordinary when the next consoles roll around.
Not an IT guy, I just work for a company that sells internet. Pet peeve of mine to see people spread misinformation about internet connections :P I twitch every time I hear someone say "Megabytes per second" instead of "Megabits per second".

Size is an issue for game storage. That's beside the point though. From a collectors standpoint I love cases, I love the box art (and have an appreciation for it as well), and I love the disc art. I love the collectors edition extras and cases I can get. I especially love staring at the stacks of cases as well and picking out what I want. Having entirely digital collection for my games (I admit, I have quite a collection of PSN games) just would feel... wrong, like I'm being ripped off.

The same goes for blu-rays. I only buy a physical copy when I really like the movie. A "these are the best" collection of mine if you will. If I lost the disc I'd be heart broken. I admit though I have quite a large collection of digital movies and TV series growing... I still keep the best on disc though.

cridgit001 12-04-2008 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien (Post 638070)
Not an IT guy, I just work for a company that sells internet. Pet peeve of mine to see people spread misinformation about internet connections :P I twitch every time I hear someone say "Megabytes per second" instead of "Megabits per second".



Size is an issue for game storage. That's beside the point though. From a collectors standpoint I love cases, I love the box art (and have an appreciation for it as well), and I love the disc art. I love the collectors edition extras and cases I can get. I especially love staring at the stacks of cases as well and picking out what I want. Having entirely digital collection for my games (I admit, I have quite a collection of PSN games) just would feel... wrong, like I'm being ripped off.

The same goes for blu-rays. I only buy a physical copy when I really like the movie. A "these are the best" collection of mine if you will. If I lost the disc I'd be heart broken. I admit though I have quite a large collection of digital movies and TV series growing... I still keep the best on disc though.
If that makes you twitch, I must have given you a seizure. haha

That's what I like about cover flow on itunes. I can finally see the cover art which is cool because some of the bands I listen to put a lot of work into them.

That is one reason why I almost never buy DVDs. I can't find movies worthy my my collection. I will however be purchasing Dark Knight, but I can't decide what format.

Tyrien 12-04-2008 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cridgit001 (Post 638075)
If that makes you twitch, I must have given you a seizure. haha

That's what I like about cover flow on itunes. I can finally see the cover art which is cool because some of the bands I listen to put a lot of work into them.

That is one reason why I almost never buy DVDs. I can't find movies worthy my my collection. I will however be purchasing Dark Knight, but I can't decide what format.
Blu-ray if you can play it DVD if you can't?

ivi0nk3y 12-04-2008 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 638056)
I've never really looked into SST, any semi-easy to understand articles about it for us semi-technical folk?
Here ya go. :)

Solid state hard drive technology guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 638056)
I couldn't agree with Tyrien more, digital collections are cool, but it just isn't the same, alot of people complained when X released I.V. as an iTunes single instead of a physical single, one reason could be the highest quality available on iTunes is 320 mp3.
Every bit of Digitally Distributed media should have its Hard Copy counter part.
It should be a choice, not a regime change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 638056)
also, with the increasing size of games, imagine the HDD you would have to have to store multiple games on it. A couple TB if you want a decent collection of PS3 games.
Indeed. Also, hard drives fail all the time. Imagine having to buy a backup for a huge drive?
For example, I have a PC with 5Tb of disk space. 1Tb of it failed and I couldn't do sh*t about it unless I dished out £400-£900 for data recovery.
In the end I made a vacuum box and succeeded in repairing it myself, though it voided the warranty.
Another example, my friends PS3 hard drive failed on him the other day. He was forced to format a Ton of saved game data as well as saved games.
He could back that crap up but why should he have to dish out extra money for something that can be so unreliable? Surely a backup device should come as standard. :rolleyes:
So, that is 100's of hours of gameplay and transferred data down the crapper.
Imagine if it was your digitally downloaded game collection.

>.>

So yea, lets not get ahead of ourselves peoples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien (Post 638051)

or rather, SATA, and eSATA are used internally due to power consumption. There's no external use for them currently like an SD card.
You mean like USB drives?

And yes, they make stand alone systems for Solid State Devices too up to 2Tb.
Like I said though, expensive as hell.

XjapanFOREVER 12-04-2008 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrien (Post 638083)
Blu-ray if you can play it DVD if you can't?
I got WANTED on blu-ray yesterday.... ORGASMIC
Getting Dark night on it too... for X-mas.

@ivionk3y, thanks for the link.

5TB!?!?!?!!!!?
what did that run you? I only have a 500gb hd on my comp..

as for the ps3 hdd failing, I always keep up to date copies of my saves on my comp's hard drive, my friends 360 did it to him, which is why I do it now.

ivi0nk3y 12-04-2008 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 638086)
@ivionk3y, thanks for the link.

5TB!?!?!?!!!!?
what did that run you? I only have a 500gb hd on my comp..

as for the ps3 hdd failing, I always keep up to date copies of my saves on my comp's hard drive, my friends 360 did it to him, which is why I do it now.
Around £400 at the start of this year. Not a bad deal really, back then.

But yea, he would've done the same as you if he had a PC. :p

XjapanFOREVER 12-04-2008 03:05 AM
is it internal or external?
I'll have to get me a bigger one.. I plan to get a BD-RW drive here soon...

anyways, I can't wait for hideo's new game, he was the first one to really utilize most of what the Blu-Ray disc has to offer with MGS4.... There's supposedly another MGS in the works... most likely a prequel though

ivi0nk3y 12-04-2008 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XjapanFOREVER (Post 638090)
is it internal or external?
I'll have to get me a bigger one.. I plan to get a BD-RW drive here soon...
Nono, there's 5 1Tb drives.

I wish I could afford those 2Tb SSD though. :D

Anyway, I wonder if they will ever make an RPG that utilises the Blue Ray capacity.

XjapanFOREVER 12-04-2008 03:47 AM
gotcha...lol I thought that was one hdd...

I don't know what I would do with 5tb though, I'd probably go on a collecting spree and download everything I see...

I don't know, Even FFXII fit on a DVD5 I believe, and it was a decent length game.

The creator's of White Knight Chronicles were boasting a 100 hour story, so I guess that might use a bit of space...

Tyrien 12-04-2008 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 638102)
Nono, there's 5 1Tb drives.

I wish I could afford those 2Tb SSD though. :D

Anyway, I wonder if they will ever make an RPG that utilises the Blue Ray capacity.
Square will do it with FFXIII. Last Remnant released on 360 with two discs, both DVD9s... though I believe because of the proprietary information microsoft requires on the disc, and after base 2 to base 10 conversion there's only like 6.9GB free. FFXIII is estimated at 3~4 discs for the 360 version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 638084)
You mean like USB drives?

And yes, they make stand alone systems for Solid State Devices too up to 2Tb.
Like I said though, expensive as hell.
Yes, but as you mention transfer rate is very limited because of the limits USB 2.0 has. 3.0 was just recently announced, officially of course. Target isn't until.. 2010 I think.

The thing about an RPG and length... it doesn't necessarily have a relation to the size it uses on a disc. Several things like textures, and music can be used repeatedly.


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