What is Japan's additiue to its modern history?

[Ohad]

komitsuki,

Sorry, then why is your tone very much about blaming China?

If you think my tone was with some sort of an anti-Chinese sentiment then you are mistaking. I am no expert on the Syno-Japanese relations, and frankly I am quite ignorant about it. But, from what I read in some articles reviewing the Syno-Japanese relations, a hostilaty between the two is presented. Of course it could be very possible all this have changed, or there was no real hostilaty in the first place, I do not know. In any case, since I am ignorant on the subject I feel not urgent will to try and even prove my alleged fact.

I am sorry this thread was derailed like this. Anyway, back on topic.

MMM,

It feels like you want to hold the Japanese to some higher shame for their history then we expect of other nations and cultures. Why should every Japanese citizen have his nose rubbed in the shame of his ancestors when we certainly don't expect that of American, English, Italian, German, Greek, Russian, etc. citizen.

I do not know about others, but I don't think that the Japanese people should be ashamed for crimes commited by some of their ancestors. I was posting this thread from a position of true ignorance and a will to know the answeres for what I've asked.

[Jaydelart]

Originally Posted by MMM

I think a some of you are operating under misguided notions. It feels like you want to hold the Japanese to some higher shame for their history then we expect of other nations and cultures. Why should every Japanese citizen have his nose rubbed in the shame of his ancestors when we certainly don't expect that of American, English, Italian, German, Greek, Russian, etc. citizen.

What expression of wartime sorrows are you expecting? At what poing are we allowed to pull ourselves from the mud and move forward?

I heard someone explain about the relationship Japan has with other Asian countries like S. Korea and China (among others), and how there is a general dislike for the Japanese in these countries. During the explanation, the speaker said something similar to "It's not that the Koreans or Chinese people hate the Japanese people, it's that they hate the Japanese attitude. They don't seem to be doing enough to take responsibility for the horrible acts their country committed in the past, acting as if nothing happened."
Apparently this explanation was well received, and I can relate to it to a certain degree. However, it leads me to ask the question... What difference it will make if Japan did more openly expressed it's sorrow towards Korea, China, Philippines, (etc.)? I don't foresee any big gain as a result of it -- other than pride. I think this is similar to the issue of some African-Americans' attitudes towards the "white man". How long do modern day Caucasian people have to take responsibility for the actions of their ancestors? I can understand their argument to a certain point, and I do acknowledge the fact that racism exists even today, but it can get ridiculous sometimes.

I find it all kind of childish. Perhaps I'm just naive.

[MMM]

Are we talking about the Japanese citizen's "attitude" or the attitude of the government?

95%+ of foreigners in Japan are Chinese and S. Korean. Korean TV stars have their own rack at the magazine and book store. Japanese stars are also popular in Korea, and many Chinese and Korean stars visit Japan regularly to promote movies and albums and vice versa. You really see pride come out during Asian sporting events, but I think for the most part the younger generations of Asians are looking forward.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by MMM

but I think for the most part the younger generations of Asians are looking forward.

I hope for a well-managed international co-operation after the American influence leaves East Asia for good. Of course, avoid the pre-1945 Japanese example like a plague.

It's a very good counterbalance against the Western World.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

I hope for a well-managed international co-operation after the American influence leaves East Asia for good. Of course, avoid the pre-1945 Japanese example like a plague.

It's a very good counterbalance against the Western World.

I am not sure what you mean. Americans aren't leaving East Asia any time soon.

[Nyororin]

But the museum was overwhelming bias; it had those dramatic sculptures with the melting flesh, and those ridiculously enlarged photos of burns and open wounds. The atrocities committed by America were made pretty obvious, but not quite the other way around.

That`s because it`s a museum about what happened in Hiroshima. Not a museum about the war in general. I wouldn`t expect them to make a display about anything but the most basic bits of the war (to add context to the event) - as that is not the meaning of the museum. The people who suffered there were mostly innocent people, sure, part of a huge war, and something inevitable - but blaming the majority of those who died in Hiroshima for something certain troops far away were doing is beyond unfortunate.

It seems that the Japanese have yet to express true sorrow for their wartime wrongs. I don't think that in any Japanese history class, Japan's war crimes are ever mentioned. Japan's relations with China and South Korea became strained further when in 2005, the PM visited Yasukuni Shrine, and a history textbook was released which glossed over Japan's war crimes, including the "Rape of Nanjing".

Ah, the great urban legend rears it`s ugly head.
The war, with a mention of "some terrible things were done by our army" - is in 2nd grade history textbooks (1st grade doesn`t do national history - only local, of the town, etc). 3rd grade hits on the invasion of China. 4th has censored photos and a full two pages dedicated to war crimes. 5th has more, and 6th has an additional pamphlet to be covered in a special class.
Middle school is even more in depth, but starts in depth into world history so things get thinner for a while.
High school has a full year dedicated to WWII, with uncensored photos, chapters about the Rape of Nanjing, Unit 731, comfort women, mass killings, etc and a HUGE emphasis on how horrible this was.

Anyone who says that Japan does not teach this has never seen a real Japanese textbook that is in USE in schools. I was personally surprised on how much was covered in a 4th grade textbook. I have a feeling parents in the US would be suing the school if the textbooks showed such pics and had such explicit language in high school - let alone 4th grade.

There is MORE content on the atrocities of the war than there is about what happened to Japan during the war.

The urban legend of it being glossed over comes from a certain group making and publishing a "textbook". ANYONE can make a textbook. I could write one up with lessons about people being born from eggs, etc etc and have it published if I had the money. That does not mean any school would use it. Private schools choose their textbooks, and as far as I know, only one or two tiny private schools have chosen to use that textbook (total of <200 students) as it does not fit into the national curriculum. In the end, even those students will have to be tested on the material, so will be forced to learn it elsewhere.
All the other normal schools use a set of textbooks that are very clear, very explicit, and very in depth.

ETA; All those examples of "We asked some people on the street, and they`d never even heard of it!" are IDIOTS to begin with. It`s on the same level of those shows where they go around and ask everyone the most simple questions and people can`t answer. It would be sort of on the level of asking someone in the US "Have you ever heard of Pearl Harbor, or Hiroshima?" and having absolutely no clue.

(It`s been a couple years since I looked through all of this, but I`m fairly certain I`m right about the grades.)

[MMM]

Thank you for the education, Nyororin.

[Jaydelart]

Originally Posted by MMM

Are we talking about the Japanese citizen's "attitude" or the attitude of the government?

95%+ of foreigners in Japan are Chinese and S. Korean. Korean TV stars have their own rack at the magazine and book store. Japanese stars are also popular in Korea, and many Chinese and Korean stars visit Japan regularly to promote movies and albums and vice versa. You really see pride come out during Asian sporting events, but I think for the most part the younger generations of Asians are looking forward.

I can't say for sure, but I believe he was referring to the attitudes of the general people, including politicians; a combination of both citizens and the government. It's similar, in nature, to a conspiracy theory, but not quite the same thing -- if that makes sense.

I agree, it doesn't immediately seem like there is any significant hatred between the countries, especially judging from the booming Entertainment Industry. Which is why I was somewhat confused by the whole notion.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am not sure what you mean.

Reading comprehension: I talked about East Asia since you mentioned about it. Hence, "I hope for a well-managed international co-operation in EAST ASIA"

Americans aren't leaving East Asia any time soon.

That's what they always say...

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Ah, the great urban legend rears it`s ugly head.

Agreed. Although the majority of the Japanese education system does the right thing, the very very vocal and minority 右翼 members seems to take up most of the air time with their dodgy textbooks, which is used by like 0.1% of all the schools in Japan.

From the Chinese perspective, textbooks are centralised in PRC, all schools uses the same textbooks. So by assumption, everyone also thinks that these dodgy text books beat up by the extremists in Japan will be distributed to ALL schools in Japan, hence the over-reaction.

So hennaz, give it a break well you.

Just FYI, Sino-Japanese relationships are warming. There are sticky issues but if Sino-Japanese relationships survived for 2000 years, longer than the history of US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined, I'm sure it can survive another 2000 years more.

And to be frank, I don't think Japanese people even care about history, too preoccupied with Gucci, LV, make up and gourmet these days. Of course they are all told how terrible war is so I guess we should just move on.

(But of course you always get crazy people like Nanking and Holocaust deniers. You can't regulate stupidity.)