Waterboarding

[solemnclockwork]

{Posts removed}
~K

[kMal]

I think that is where you are mistaken.
It DOES harm the other, and YES, psychologically. Thus making it torture.
You are being forced. Torture.
You are afraid of being killed. Torture.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Why is torture used? Is it used just because interrogators are sadistic fiends who had unhappy childhoods and went to work for the CIA as an emotional outlet?

It does not require an uhappy childhood to become egotistical, power hungry and/or sadistic. A lot of it just internal wiring. But your description of the possible real motives of the interrogators is highly probable.

The idea that torture doesn't lead to information is patently false. The catchword here is "reliable", but when trying to get intelligence there is no such thing as useless information. Every fact, no matter how minor, or what the context, is a piece to a larger puzzle, and potentially the key piece.

Once again, if a terrorist were caught on his way to blow up your neighborhood, or the train or plane that you (or one of your family members) had a ticket to be on, would you still think torture was unjustified?

It's far to easy for those of us who live in an insulated world to say that we oppose things like torture. We can criticize, theorize, or justify any view we like because we have never had to come face to face with the uglier side of humanity.

The problem with this is that far too much time, effort and expense is wasted following leads obtained in such highly unreliable means such as torture. And then there are the innocent people who lives are thrown into upheaval by the red herrings being chased down.

(Just some thoughts from one who's life has not always been so insulated, but is thankful it is now.)

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by solemnclockwork

it tricks your brain into an "flee" response. In very rare circumstance do you even actually start to drown, as the technique requires you to be in such an degree as to NOT allow water into the lungs.

Slight problem here! The people who are administering this torture have little incentive to assure that the "safe degree" is maintained. Nor is a medical history of the subjects comprehensive enough to rule out their body reactiing in a manner that would induce death, despite the water only filling the expected passages. This is a high a risk, possibly more, as playing with autostrangulation - which despite the medical analysis to the contrary kills many people every year.

As for the "flee" response not being damaging - INCORRECT. You need more case study on condition responses if you believe this. The research did not stop with Pavlov. Repeated autonomic programing of such reactions has proven reliably damaging (sometimes deadly) on a consistent basis.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

PS- You need to brush up on your history. The Japanese murdered and enslaved hundreds of thousands of civilians all over South East Asia in particular the rape of Nanking stands out. The Americans firebombed and nuked Japanese cities and decimated German cities. The Germans slaughtered and enslaved thousands of Slavs, Russians and Jews. All of these were targeted at civilians.

Hey, Ronin, you left out the Japanese/Korean/Chinese conflicts. But you are right. Rarely are civilian atrocities not part of armed conflict. America is one of the few countries in the world where that side effect of war has been somewhat limited. But rarely are most "civilians" actually not contributing to their country's war effort - though sometimes it is against their will.

[MMM]

The Convention Against Torture prohibits practices that constitute the intentional infliction of “severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental.” The federal torture statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2340A, similarly prohibits acts outside the United States that are specifically intended to cause “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.”

Waterboarding is torture. It causes severe physical suffering in the form of reflexive choking, gagging, and the feeling of suffocation. It may cause severe pain in some cases. If uninterrupted, waterboarding will cause death by suffocation. It is also foreseeable that waterboarding, by producing an experience of drowning, will cause severe mental pain and suffering. The technique is a form of mock execution by suffocation with water. The process incapacitates the victim from drawing breath, and causes panic, distress, and terror of imminent death. Many victims of waterboarding suffer prolonged mental harm for years and even decades afterward.

Open Letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales | Human Rights Watch

This was a part of a letter sent to then Atty. General Gonzales in 2006 by a long list of over 100 law professors.

Notice in the definition of "torture" no where is "long term effects" stated, simply “severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental.”

[pumpum]

Technically could it not be then that simply shouting abuse at someone could be defined as torture if that person were to suffer long term pschycological problems?? im thinking of high school bullying etc. some of that causes long term suffering for its victims - but then could that be describe as torture ?

plus i have never heard that the US itself punished people for waterboarding in previous conflicts - thats news to me !

[MMM]

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described - ABC News

Click the link for the full story. I won't post it all.

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described Sources Say Agency's Tactics Lead to Questionable Confessions, Sometimes to Death
By BRIAN ROSS and RICHARD ESPOSITO
Nov. 18, 2005

Harsh interrogation techniques authorized by top officials of the CIA have led to questionable confessions and the death of a detainee since the techniques were first authorized in mid-March 2002, ABC News has been told by former and current intelligence officers and supervisors.

They say they are revealing specific details of the techniques, and their impact on confessions, because the public needs to know the direction their agency has chosen. All gave their accounts on the condition that their names and identities not be revealed. Portions of their accounts are corrobrated by public statements of former CIA officers and by reports recently published that cite a classified CIA Inspector General's report.

Other portions of their accounts echo the accounts of escaped prisoners from one CIA prison in Afghanistan.

"They would not let you rest, day or night. Stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down. Don't sleep. Don't lie on the floor," one prisoner said through a translator. The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album. The music was so foreign to them it made them frantic, sources said.

Contacted after the completion of the ABC News investigation, CIA officials would neither confirm nor deny the accounts. They simply declined to comment.

The CIA sources described a list of six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" instituted in mid-March 2002 and used, they said, on a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe. According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions. [Sangetsu mentioned the need for speed in these torture techniques, and that's why they were used.]

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess. What an odd choice of words "won the admiration".

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

The techniques are controversial among experienced intelligence agency and military interrogators. Many feel that a confession obtained this way is an unreliable tool. Two experienced officers have told ABC that there is little to be gained by these techniques that could not be more effectively gained by a methodical, careful, psychologically based interrogation. According to a classified report prepared by the CIA Inspector General John Helgerwon and issued in 2004, the techniques "appeared to constitute cruel, and degrading treatment under the (Geneva) convention," the New York Times reported on Nov. 9, 2005.

It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough," said former CIA officer Bob Baer.

Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism, recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."

One argument in favor of their use: time. In the early days of al Qaeda captures, it was hoped that speeding confessions would result in the development of important operational knowledge in a timely fashion. [Sangetstu's argument]

According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

"This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

Two sources also told ABC that the techniques -- authorized for use by only a handful of trained CIA officers -- have been misapplied in at least one instance.

The sources said that in that case a young, untrained junior officer caused the death of one detainee at a mud fort dubbed the "salt pit" that is used as a prison. They say the death occurred when the prisoner was left to stand naked throughout the harsh Afghanistan night after being doused with cold water. He died, they say, of hypothermia.

According to the sources, a second CIA detainee died in Iraq and a third detainee died following harsh interrogation by Department of Defense personnel and contractors in Iraq. CIA sources said that in the DOD case, the interrogation was harsh, but did not involve the CIA.

[rison]

Originally Posted by MMM

one prisoner said through a translator. The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album. The music was so foreign to them it made them frantic, sources said.

Now that was harsh.

Originally Posted by MMM

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

Doctors know about this...certainly the government knows about this.

Originally Posted by MMM

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.[Sangetsu mentioned the need for speed in these torture techniques, and that's why they were used.]

I've heard about this, these guys are treated as animals.

Originally Posted by MMM

Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

Answers the question to the thread...definitely a torture technique.

Originally Posted by MMM

Two sources also told ABC that the techniques -- authorized for use by only a handful of trained CIA officers -- have been misapplied in at least one instance.

That word in this context is an understatement.

[ozkai]

Definitely torture and a breach of human right's.