"To arrive at a just estimate of a renowned man's character one must judge it by the standards of his time, not ours." - Mark Twain

Just saying.

OT: Not angry at Obama, but I don't believe any of his actions have warranted the Nobel Peace Prize.

It's a good quote to ponder.
Neither did the selection committee.

The world is a different place now than it was a few centuries ago. "Slavery" at that time wasn't as nasty a word as it is now. People had "owned" other people long before colonial America, and it wasn't just blacks that were the victims.

During the early history in America, there were actually very few "freemen". Even many white settlers were "indentured servants", who had to work a number of years on a farm or in a household before they could become free. They could not marry or have children without permission. In Europe, "serfs" (at one time a large class of society) belonged to the lands they worked, and were not permitted to leave. They and the land they worked were owned by someone else.

No one at the time would be so crazy as to say that slavery was a wonderful thing, but few would have called it an atrocity. Washington and Jefferson were both land owners, and slaves worked on their farms.

Times have changed since then, and we have learned a lot, but we have also forgotten a lot as well.

It's obvious that American schools have failed, considering how ignorant some folks seem to be reguarding the history of thier own nation. Washington and the founding fathers were some of the best people this country ever produced. The freedoms you enjoy today are because of them, and the blood, sweat and tears they shed. The constitution and the bill of rights that protect you, was written by those men you despise so much.

Is the US perfect? No, of course not, but it can improve. Afterall, it's the great experiment. Has it made mistakes in the past? Yes, no country is perfect in that reguard. Still, it atempts to correct those mistakes as best it can, no other country does that. Some folks nationalistic self hate is misguided.

If the goal of today's schools were to indoctrinate students with a contempt for America, capitalism, and liberty, and to brainwash them with socialism, self-doubt, and an obeisance to group-identity victimization and identity politics, then I wouldn't say they've failed at all. The left has taken over our schools, from Kindergarten all the way through university, and they use their positions to inculcate their ideologies into impressionable minds...

As a former teacher and administrator at an American high school I would say I cannot remember reading a statement about politics and America schools that was more entrenched in paranoid bombastic fantasy than this statement here.

You are obviously a smart individual samurai, which is why I enjoy our discussion, even if we come from different ends of the political spectrum, but please. That's all I can say.

MMM, every school is different, but I've seen some of this first hand. My degree is in History/Soc Science teaching. During my senior year, one of my professors was fired for no apparent reason. I checked in to it, talked to several professors that I'd known for years, and found out it was all political. I had some long and very frank discussions with several professors that year, and even with some of my old high school teachers, and found out about a lot about the behind-the-scenes blacklisting of conservative teachers, the pressure upon them, the harassment, etc. Those discussions were a major reason why I did not go on and get my teaching credential... I knew that my kind was not wanted in academia, and in fact was forcibly run out if they dared show up, as happened to that prof that was fired (I was lucky enough to have his class, and he was an excellent teacher, very apolitical in class, but accidentally opened his mouth outside of class and lost his job over it).

In contrast, I knew and had classes with some repulsively left-wing professors and students, some of whom indoctrinated my own brother, who to this day is still a leftist who believes all kinds of crazy things, such as Bush was behind 9/11. Before university, he was center-right. After university, he was hard left, and I even saw which classes and professors were mostly responsible. Those same leftist counter-culture types got him into drugs and drinking, which he is still struggling with today, 15 years later.

Finally, I do recruiting for JET at the university each year, so I see what is still going on there somewhat. You should have seen it last year, when I attended the career fair there during the elections... the radicals were out in full force.

But beyond my own experiences, you should read some of the books on the subject...

Amazon.com: Indoctrination U:The Left's War Against Academic Freedom (9781594031908): David Horowitz: Books
Amazon.com: One-Party Classroom: How Radical Professors at America's Top Colleges Indoctrinate Students and Undermine Our Democracy (9780307452559): David Horowitz, Jacob Laksin: Books

PS: I bet many of the kids in this thread got at least some of their anti-American views from their teachers... Guys, am I right?

To be honest, I think it's statements like the one in Bold is the big problem! The rest of your post seems reasonable, but a tiny little sentence like that makes everything you said; invalid!

Personally, I don't know what the educational system is like in the US, but last year, I had to help out 2 Americans that came to France for an exchange. One was from Texas and the other somewhere in the centre of the US. I was pretty shocked at how bad they were doing in their Math and Chemistry classes in their first year of the Bachelors degree, yet they told me they had very good grades back home. I had to help them for about a month to catch up to the French standard. Luckily they were very intelligent, otherwise it would have taken much longer.

So, I don't know what they learnt in America, but when it came to classical Sciences, they sucked!

unfortunately this is becoming more and more standard. The American educational system along with many other areas needs to be revamp badly. I dont know what happen but the kids i see today do not learn nearly as much as my generation or the ones before mine did. American kids are falling behind many other industrialized countries in two important categories Math and Science. Also, the drop out rate has started to climb and the amount of patents issued has declined. Its very worrisome that people arent even being creative anymore.

A perfect example is people like Anita Dunn telling high school students her love for Mao Tse Tung. The speech was done to a High School audience. This just broke yesterday. Perfect example of what you are talking about.

Link:

YouTube - WH Spokeswoman Anita Dunn: 'Mao Tse Tung is My Favorite Political Philosopher'

god i love political debates... I will freely admit that any of my comments on here should be taken with a grain of salt... for I am undoubtedly bias towards the left a bit..

I used to be right wing, republican type...(almost red-neck).. however, you can't close off your eyes to the atrocities commited under the Bush administration, which is why my political views had to shift...

now I don't bother to support a party, that is one of the fundamental flaws with america. people think "oh, i need to set myself to a party - republican or democrat"... when really, we should, all of us be approaching each situation or issue individually and find the best solution for it.. not just going off what some political establishment has deemed suitable


this is why i like this thread. i am shocked it hasn't digressed into some huge flame war, so i thank you all who've posted in here for keeping it civilized. :cool: :rheart:

the left/right para dime is pretty horrible.

Yep iv been saying that for years even before i finished high school. I asked my teachers why its more important for students to pass standardized state test than to actually retain the knowledge i always got a bogus answer but i already knew the truth its called money. I was lucky to go to school in Montgomery Country in Maryland just outside DC the counties standards are really high and the county consistently finishes in the top 20 best places to send you kids to primary school rankings, because of the influcne of politicans kids and foreign diplomat children amoung other factors.

But when i see the inner city and midwest scores i tremble. If Americans took the citizenship test about 80% would fail. Its as bad as children not knowing who the first president was or what is the Supreme law of the land.

I agree you with you there sir. Although i am registered as Democrat i really don't stick to one party exclusively. I believe too many people that this democrat republican business too far often more times that not if divides us instead of working towards the best interest of the country.

At least you acknowledge that every school is different, and hope you can extend that to your experiences are your own.

In an alternative opinion, me and my fellow colleagues often cringed at election time because the STUDENTS were (and are) much more political than school policies allow teachers to be. Not only would "indoctrination" have lead to suspension or firing, regardless or which side of the aisle the teacher was, even mentioning who you were going to vote for for president or how you were going to vote on ballot measures was totally against the rules. As "authority figures" discussing politics could be construed as influencing, and was (and is) strictly prohibited. Teachers were not allowed to have political bumper stickers, wear pins or t-shirts advocating a certain cause or politician.

I was a part of student government in college, so I did get to see the political views of my teachers on both sides, but for the most part the politicizing and influencing was much more strong student to student than teacher to student. But, again, every school has its own policies and environment.

Yes, my experiences are my own, as are yours. But mine were very different from what you're describing. I had many teachers who voiced their political views in class, even when it wasn't the subject of the class at all... for instance, my computer science teacher was one of the worst, taking anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes(!) each day of a 50 minute class to rant about the latest politics... needless to say, nobody learned a lot about computers in that class. Classes in the liberal arts, especially history, politics, literature, etc had the cover of "this is related to what the class is supposed to be about" and so would spend entire days discussing the teachers' views on politics and issues. And not in a "here's a balanced view of what the left and right each believe", presented in such a non-biased way that the teacher's own views were unknown. In fact, in one Poli-Sci class, the teacher would only give the left-wing view and then would call on me, the only admitted conservative in the class, for the "Republican response". He and I literally had hour long debates in class sometimes! Luckily, most of the teachers I had stopped short of lowering the grade of a conservative (there there were 1 or 2 that did, and I learned to keep my mouth shut in those classes.)

that's no good... if they're going to supply a discussion on such topics.. neigh, even if the teacher is not the instigator of such a discussion, there is absolutely no excuse for such action... that is absolutely unprofessional and ludicris...
i had an English teacher like that freshman year of high school... i would write an amazingly composed paper with great relevant textual citings and he would grade me down for it because those papers did not follow his views of the book. then i'd write a couple - half assed papers in which i'd agree with his vision of the book, and miraculously i'd end up with a 90- 98% grade... needless to say i did not heed my own conclusions and wrote whatever the hell i felt the books were on about... and ended up with about an 79% in the class overall..
:rheart:

also, i do believe a teacher should make an open statement to the class on each subject they talk about as to what they believe on the subject so that the students can judge for themselves knowing which way the teacher is bias towards

I hear you one of the swinging factors in me voting for Obama was because he presented a path on education that was more in line with what i thought would work, i did not think Hilliary's reform of the educational system would help student actually learn. Fast forwarded to the present and of course thing have been put on the back burner. I know once i figured out that many action take by the school board was for money i became quite disenchanted with the status quo. However the positive side of that was i started volunteering at elementary and middle schools in the key program and tutor children after school then i started doing it in the inner city in DC. Learning how the system worked got me more proactive.

I believe that true change in this country will come with education. Its proven time and time again Education is the key maybe solving but quelling a lot of issues in this country including racism, family planning, STD's and financial spending and general mental health. I agree with you they need to get back to basics and build a firm root structure and build on it. It pains me when i see some of blatant ignorant comments people make and granted when i get upset or pissed off i can be just as bad. But there are some that choose not to educated themselves thats just scary.



SO you went the VA educational system i hear MD and VA systems are pretty similar which is why is probably why im understanding where you are coming from. I agree just because a student passes a test does not mean they actually understand the material. They dumbdown the curriculum to make it easier for the students to pass to me thats teaching. They are so concerned about how much money they are getting in the next term that do it at the expense of education. No child left behind implemented by Bush did not work imo and did not address the larger concern and did involve parents enough but it was start.

Quote:

My best friend took his citizenship test back in the early 2000s. He'd been here in the US since he was young, but wasn't born here. He joked and said I should've married him to make it easier. When he took the test, he said it was nothing but a joke. I can't remember some of the questions, though, since it was so long ago, but when he asked them to me, I got them. One question asked of him, was if he was a prostitute. Y-eah...

Yea i read about that it was horrible i was actually upset all day about it. I found the test on line and decided to take it. I did get the question "how many judges sit on the supreme court?" for the life of me i couldn't remember lol. But its kind of scary to see the downward spiral in the educational system.

just for kicks here are the questions to the test. I wont post the answers but i will post the percentage of students who answered the question correctly. For the answers people can Google if they want.

1. What is the supreme law of the land? 29.5 percent

2.What do we call the first 10 amendments to the Constitution? 25 percent

3.What are the two parts of the U.S. Congress?23 percent

4.How many justices are on the Supreme Court?9.4 percent

5.Who wrote the Declaration of Independence?25.3 percent

6.What ocean is on the East Coast of the United States? 58.8 percent

7. What are the two major political parties in the United States? 49.6 percent

8. We elect a U.S. senator for how many years? 14.5 percent

9. Who was the first president? 26.5 percent

10. Who is in charge of the executive branch? 26.5 percent

Are you saying only 26 percent knew who was the first president? Wow, that one the easiest questions.

26% of Arizona high school students. This is not 26% of all Americans.

Most AZ high school students would fail US citizenship test | www.azstarnet.com ®

I only answered 5, one more and I would've pasted the citizen test if I picked those questions.

MMM is right sorry for the confusion SSJup81 and I were talking about an incident that happen a while ago where the Arizona students were tested and these were the results. But if you research a little you can find similar trends in other parts of the country.

i laughed when slightly higher that 50% answered which body of water is off the East coast of the US. Seriously it should be higher much higher.

That goes to show what kind of different experiences happen in different parts of the country. Where I live this would have been a local news-worthy scandal if there was even a notion that a students grades were affected by political views. A couple local football coaches were just reprimanded for basically getting in an altercation at a bus stop after a pro hockey game that had nothing to do with the school on a weekend when no students were around. No one was arrested, but still one was fired and another demoted.

I never thought they'd put such easy question in the test. I always thought on the U.S citizenship test you gotta write stuff like the names of all U.S. presidents in chronological order.

No its actually pretty easy you dont have remember dates or anything. What i dont like is for those people taking the citizenship test that dont speak or read English a translator is provided for them. That i dont agree with at all if you want to live here and be citizen its should a requirement to learn the language. I would never go live in another country without learning their native language first. oh well but the test itself is pretty easy as you can see.

That would be acceptable if the US had an official language. It doesn't have one!

which is true however you are taking a taste to become a citizen of a country and instead of reading the test yourself a translator is doing it for you i disagree with it on every level. You are right though if the US would declare an official language thing might change.

even that would be no big deal.. in second grade we had to memorize them all... can't do it now, but there was a girl i liked in the class, so i managed to be the second to learn them all.. second to her that is.:D

I'm not sure where you live, but I live and grew up in California, where it's just about illegal to be a conservative, lol. However, I'm in rural CA, the city has twice as many registered Republicans as Democrats. Still, the Democrats/leftists are clustered in certain jobs, #1 among them being teachers/professors. It's strange... you could drive all over town and see McCain or Ron Paul stickers far outnumbering Obama or Hillary stickers during the election, but stepping onto the university campus it felt like you were transported to Berkeley. And it's been that way since I was in school, and before that I'm sure. A poll found that over 90% of the profs at the university self-identified as leftists, and nearly as many school teachers as well, in a town that is far more conservative. I realized that the left controls the schools in most of the country, even in my fairly conservative hometown. And more and more documentation of that control, and the abuses of it, are coming to light thanks to people like David Horowitz. It's not every teacher, not every school... I had lots of good teachers. It was one reason I decided to get a degree in History/Soc Sci teaching myself, and I taught art for many years, as well as English in Japan. But essentially 1-party control of the school and university systems in this country has led some to feel that can and should indoctrinate students rather than teach them the facts and let them decide for themselves... after all, if they did that, about half would reach what they consider to be the "wrong" conclusions and support smaller government, lower taxes, less regulation and govt control, and reject identity politics... and they don't want that to happen.

I am right above you in Portland, OR, samurai. probably one of the most liberal cities in the country. I also went to college in Eugene, OR, another incredibly liberal college town.

I am not going to discount your experience, but after all the meetings and conferences I went to with fellow teachers over the years I can tell you that if there is any method of organized liberal indoctrination going on in this country they sure never let me in on it.

I had both conservative and liberal colleagues when I was a teacher, but there was an unwritten rule that politics stays off campus. To be honest we were all too busy trying to fulfill our lesson plans and scrapping money to pay for supplementals to think about filling kids' heads full of political talk.

So I think statements like "the left controls the schools" are a little misleading. Even if the majority of teachers tend to be democrats doesn't mean there is an organized attack on the nation's education system. Every industry has a majority one way or the other politically. It doesn't mean indoctrination is happening.

I couldn't help but laugh when I hear them say this on Comedy Central:
"He won the Nobel Peace prize for NOT being this guy":

Ironically, Bush has a favorable rateing well over 70% in Africa. Nor do I think the Bush administration did anything overly horrible. The Obama admin apparently doesn't either, since most of it is still being done by them as well.


Anyhow, I don't see how thinking the US tries to correct certain aspects of itself makes my statement invalid, unless you refer to my thinking only the US does that. That's fine, though it won't change how I think on that. I still think the US bends over backward compared to other nations, reguarding things of that nature.

My university days were pretty much the same as what Samurai007 mentions. Professors were not only leftest, but blantantly taught that socialism was the best way for America. I argued with them constantly, my days in private schools probably left me with a different idea on national history than those taught in the public schools.

Education should be designed to allow for independant thought and an appreciation of national history. To much of it today is built along the lines of group think.

Change takes time. Republicans say things like "You can't just close Gitmo," "You can't just end the war in Iraq," "You can't just change emissions laws," and the like, and then turn around and say "Look, Obama is doing the same things Bush was doing. He must think Bush was right." Can't have it both ways.

We both know that isn't true on many many issues. Not even a full 9 months into the presidency... I know we are living in a time of instant gratification, but the best wines don't become the best right out of the barrel. It takes time.

My god..a group of people...who..think..alike.


OMG TEH GROUPTHINK IS COMMINGZ. LOCK UR WINDOZE PAGE TEH GLENN BECK B4 ITS 2 LATE

Your humor escapes me.

I Agree that obama is having a hard times under the current circumstances but that doesn't mean that obama is walking on bush's trail ..

Actually , he is cleaning his mess up .. even if it's so soon to jump to conclusion
but I believe that obama is going to make a change ..

he is a man of peace

Obama is making a far, far bigger mess than Bush ever did. And he's a man of appeasement, not peace... there's a big difference.