I agree companies should be fined and punished if found they willingly hired an illegal.
Some look the other way. Still stolen SS #s continue to be used.
The E-verify system isn't pefect yet.

The Bush Guest Worker program would have been a start.
Then again at this rate we wouldn't be able to ask for Guest Worker program papers anyway if a guest worker was stopped.

When your W-4 says Married and 8 Dependents, your tax withholding is very, very low, especially if you aren't being paid top dollar.

As for why, well, too many politicians see the illegals (and legal Hispanic sympathizers) as a voting bloc to be wooed, so there's a few ICE raids here and there for show, a few penalties on employers to make it look good, but they largely turn a blind eye to both.

Indeed.
It is a dirty little secret that illegals do vote even though they can't legally vote.

To register in MA, you need to prove that you are a US citizen and proof of resident as well being older than 18. I doubt that illegals vote here.

True but not all states.
California is a big state.

Your doubt is misguided. There are those with forged papers in MA. They are often transplanted Canadians who no one thinks twice about. But there are instances of fraudulent papers being found up there, just like down on the Mexican border. I would imagine the reverse is more common, but its not exclusive.

1) I never said MSNBC is my favorite source for news. Just because I don't agree with you on many things does not automatically make me a MSNBC follower.

2) Interesting that you blame this unfortunate situation on the "Mexican kids". I went back and reread the article and nowhere does it say Hispanic students, leaders, or ANYBODY complained or shunned the students for wearing the American flag.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Nine dependents? What a great way to get audited. Trust me, the don't claim nine dependents. They get ripped off at work and keep their mouths shut.

You do know that most of the Hispanic individuals living in America are citizens are are here legally, right? Not every Latino living in the US is from another country, just as not every African American living in the US was born in Africa.

Here you go:
http://biggovernment.com/gknapp/2010...cinco-de-mayo/

"Some Mexican-American students KTVU spoke with said they thought wearing red, white and blue on Cinco de Mayo was disrespectful. “It’s just kinda disrespectful that they would do that on this day,” said student Victoria Wright. “I mean, we don’t go around on 4th of July wearing red white and green and saying ‘Viva Mexico,’ because that’s disrespectful.”"

And the leaders were the school principal(s).

There is video too if you want.

You don't actually support what went down here do you?

Well duh. What does that have to do with anything I was talking about?

Your link quotes that quote from KTVU, but that quote isn't in the story it is linked to.

My point is, it wasn't the "Mexican kids" that complained that got the boys with flags on their clothes in trouble. It was a decision made completely by school officials.

If you dig a little deeper you will find that there were problems on Cinco de Mayo the previous year, and the school had made a rule about wearing the American flag on that day. So it isn't as if these boys were blindsided.

Do I think it is a good rule? Of course not. I do not support the school's position of telling people they cannot wear American flags on their clothing. Did you really think I would?

And on the last point, I was getting the impression you thought politicians appeal to Hispanic votes because illegal immigrants vote illegally. In reality illegal immigrants tend not to vote, and that politicians appeal to Hispanic voters because the vast majority of Hispanic voters are legal voters.

Again I'm going to have to ask you grep around the Internet once in a while yourself. Again I refuse to spoon feed you information on topics after you reply to them.

Are you and I reading the same story?
It was. They caused an uproar that about "being disrespected and demanding an apology". That didn't come from school officials.

Notice also that one of the boys wearing the flag has a Hispanic background, so race is off the table here.

And it gets better

"More than 200 Hispanic students reportedly skipped class on Thursday and marched to school district headquarters while chanting "we want respect" and "si se puede" -- "yes we can," the Morgan Hill Times reported."

FOXNews.com - California Principal Apologizes for Forbidding U.S. Flag Shirts on Mexican Holiday

Gonna call you on this. I *demand* links to a story about a rule on wearing the American flag made at some point at this school. I KNOW that would of made headline news. No Ehow links.

Also since when do people have to prepare to be blindsided about wearing the American flag anytime of the year in America?


Well your first post on the matter about someone should teach those kids not to disrespect the flag by wearing American flag T-shirts and posting that link leads me to believe this. What is that all about? Sounds like you have a problem with it.

it is more at the state level illegal voting takes its toll. Plus I don't believe what you write for one second with Amnesty back on the table again.

mmm mmm mmm mmm mmmm si se puede!

Oh I forgot to mention, as I just double checked, that quote is in there.
The quote in the main article is in the video interview. Plus if you doubt the quotes, just grep in them in Google news or something.


http://www.japanforum.com/forum/gene...tml#post811268

Here is a nice summary:
Eyeblast.tv

You keep linking to different stories about this issue, so it is hard to keep up, but please don't talk down and talk about spoonfeeding.

Here is the link you posted from BigGovernment.

http://biggovernment.com/gknapp/2010...cinco-de-mayo/

This links to Racial Tension Mounts At South Bay High School - News Story - KTVU San Francisco

with the quote:

Some Mexican-American students KTVU spoke with said they thought wearing red, white and blue on Cinco de Mayo was disrespectful. “It’s just kinda disrespectful that they would do that on this day,” said student Victoria Wright. “I mean, we don’t go around on 4th of July wearing red white and green and saying ‘Viva Mexico,’ because that’s disrespectful.”

However that quote is not in the story. I am just saying...

However this quote is in the story.

Kathleen Sullivan, a Morgan Hill Unified School District board trustee, said Live Oak also experienced problems on Cinco de Mayo last year.
She said some students had complained to the principal and vice principal that they had felt intimidated by students waving American flags.
In response to those complaints, school authorities had asked students not to provoke other students by wearing or waving flags this year, Sullivan said.

Did you read the KTVU story, or only the conservative spin doctors' versions?

Where in the Fox article or KTVU story or BigGovernment story does it say the Hispanic students are demanding an apology?

It is the flag wearing students who are demanding an apology. I am not saying that is wrong, but you keep acting like I am an idiot when it is clear you are not reading your own posts.

The five students -- Daniel Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard -- were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags.

Dariano's mother, Diana, told FoxNews.com she and parents of the other four students are now demanding an apology from officials and are considering a lawsuit.

"We want an apology," Diana Dariano said Thursday. "Who in the United States of America would have an issue with that? It's a sad, sad day."

Who are you arguing with Clint? No one here said ANYTHING about race.

Only you.

See the quote above from the KTVU story.

Again, did you read the original link???

Racial Tension Mounts At South Bay High School - News Story - KTVU San Francisco

Pardon me for bringing a little levity to what is getting to be an overly heavy thread.

Why would you believe anything I say. How could I possibly say something truthful that doesn't jibe with your world view?

I demanded the link to where there was a "Rule" Last year not allowing students to wear the American flag on any day

"In response to those complaints, school authorities had asked students not to provoke other students by wearing or waving flags this year, Sullivan said."

DOESN'T COUNT. That is not a "rule". Even then I don't believe what Sullivan said, as he seems to just be covering his ass.


See my post on where those quotes came from. The Video interview on the KTVU article.
Also you can grep the net if you doubt.
Same for the apology piece: in video, so there is no question about the quote:
Eyeblast.tv



I still think you have a problem with this from your original post on the matter.
"teach them to respect the flag"

When school officials ask students to do something and punish them when they don't follow that, it's a rule.

Believe what you want. So now the school officials are liars? What basis do you have to make judgements like that?

"Asking" and making rules on the books are different.

What basis do I have? A principal that goes behind the district's back and tells all students that they can't wear American colors or flags in an American school because it somehow offends Mexicans? That only incites the Mexican students to feel the way they behaved. Then denies the offenders a days worth of education. What country is this school in again?
He only apologized because he got caught and the media got involved.
It is actually even worse if he "asked" rather than reminding all students what country this is instead of giving the students the idea that it is disrespect to show American patriotism on any said day.

To some Mexican students hearing "Don't wear or take off American Patriotic symbols" means to them "America is not Mexico and thus disrespecting my heritage. The authority figure tells them to remove their American patriotic clothing so they are disrespecting me"

The district does not back him on this. The principal had no authority even if he did "ask" as you can see from the district's response condemning his actions. As you can see his actions promoted 200 some students to skip class to demonstrate some sort of respect and "yes we can".

Stop defending this crap. You questioned every quote I put on this story, and I have dragged you to it each time; as usual. A simple grep of quote on the internet would bring it to each time if you couldn't read or watch or doubted what was in front of you; as usual. From your first post "those kids disrespected the flag" you took issue with this story.

Oh and heck yes the parents of the boys who wore the flag or the flag colors should demand a full apology of the principal. This is unprofessional foolishness that should not be tolerated. In my opinion he should be fired for either just ignorance or incompetence for either directly or indirectly inciting a riot or putting students in danger. Plus where are the parents of these 200 kids who skipped school or shunned these students?

Yeah I might be beating this story a little hard, but I weep for the future of this country when I see stuff like this.

"mmm mmm mmm mmm mmmm Yes we can"? No we can't.

Clint, how many times do I have to say that this is not right? I don't agree with the decisions this school made, and I don't agree that the freedom to wear t-shirts that have American flags on them should be banned.

I will not apologize for not allowing you to paint me into the Paint-By-Numbers liberal tree-hugger you want to think I am.

If you want to get into the minutia of the definitions of an administrative request and an administrative rule that's fine. You can call your lawyer, but I am not going to pay for one. The boys knew that they were requested not to wear the American flag that day. As I have said, that is not right, but lets not pretend they weren't making a political statement and they didn't know what would happen.

For the last time: THAT IS NOT RIGHT. I am just talking about total exposure.

I am not defending crap. I am defending full exposure.

The "grep" of the quote takes me back to your original link. You say the quote is in the video.

It is not.

"Some Mexican-American students KTVU spoke with said they thought wearing red, white and blue on Cinco de Mayo was disrespectful. “It’s just kinda disrespectful that they would do that on this day,” said student Victoria Wright. “I mean, we don’t go around on 4th of July wearing red white and green and saying ‘Viva Mexico,’ because that’s disrespectful.”"

This quote is not in the video in any way, shape or form.

Clint, I am not in this to call you a liar. Politically I am trying to AGREE WITH YOU. This is WRONG. But you aren't allowing me to do that.

I know how you attack when I disagree with you, but I am trying to agree with you on this one, but you are making it damn hard. I can't agree with quotes that don't exist. I have seen the video twice now, and it isn't in there.

Help me out here.

The fact that you don't believe the quotes exists is really odd to me; making me think you are taking issue with something just to take issue.

Eyeblast.tv
and in the KTVU page with video.

Second you still never explained your first thread on the matter "Those kids shouldn't disrespect the flag". Jumping into the discussion like that doesn't seem like you are agreeing with much even though you say you are agreeing.

The "they should of expected blow-back from wearing the flag" isn't holding water with me either.

Anyway I agree to disagree.
Or in this case I disagree to agree.

I did explain it. I said "I was trying to bring levity to an overly heavy thread". You aren't reading what I am writing. So the point is moot.

It is incredible that we can be on the same side here, and you still want to bicker. Now I really am done with this.

I guess that is why you took the time to hunt down the link on the proper way to display and handle an acutal flag. Your "levity", as you call it, overwhelms me. I call it you having a problem with what the students did.

Following in your next post we get into the normal MMM groove of "I don't see any articles or quotes" etc.
Oh here are your exact words:

MMM:"2) Interesting that you blame this unfortunate situation on the "Mexican kids". I went back and reread the article and nowhere does it say Hispanic students, leaders, or ANYBODY complained or shunned the students for wearing the American flag. How did you come to that conclusion?"

You are impossible.
Read,watch, believe what you want.
You say you agree but in your next breath you say this or that didn't happen, or doesn't exist.

You back pedal about the Arizona law being racists saying "I didn't say its racist" and I drag you to your own quote saying it is racist. It is the same time and time again.

You take these threads in loops either from a faulty memory, refusal to find information on your own, and or refuse to acknowledge the written or video quotes posted.

Yep, it is a good idea to be done with you on this thread and perhaps any others.

I have now watched both videos.

This quote is not in either one of them:

"Some Mexican-American students KTVU spoke with said they thought wearing red, white and blue on Cinco de Mayo was disrespectful. “It’s just kinda disrespectful that they would do that on this day,” said student Victoria Wright. “I mean, we don’t go around on 4th of July wearing red white and green and saying ‘Viva Mexico,’ because that’s disrespectful.”

Give me a timestamp when that line is spoken and will bow down to your superiority.

Racial Tension Mounts At South Bay High School - News Story - KTVU San Francisco

Eyeblast.tv

This is a small point, but the greater point is that just because a conservative blogger quoted this line as if it was from a news article, it doesn't exist.

We should question our sources, research the truth and find the facts without blindly accepting people who have the same political views as concrete facts or the word of God.

You have passionately said this line is stated is in these two (different) videos, and it isn't. THAT is the simple truth.

They don't pay taxes, sorry, most undocumented are utilized as private contracters..wich are technically responsible for thier own taxes. Wich they don't pay. Many others use stolen ID, forceing others to pay instead. We had that here in my own town, some poor guy in another state was forced to pay taxes even though he didn't live here and never been here. They got it figured out, but the person who was the actuall illigal got away.

The Native American's didn't have a very strong immigration policy..How'd that work out for em?...Oh yea, they are all on reservations.

I'm not going to be that sympathetic about Nafta, Mexico pushed it as much as our own Government. I would sympathize more if they really were just imigrants trying to make a better life in a new country IE "America", as Americans, but they are not. They are lawbreakers, they need to be treated as such.

In my opinion, it's a good thing. It's not racist in anyway and non-intrusive into people's lives. If you're an illegal who gets a speeding ticket and they ask you to prove your legality, tough tooties.

Ryozarian, you are simply wrong here.

The Tax Foundation - Immigrants and Taxes

Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time - USATODAY.com

Do illegal immigrants receive more government benefits than they pay in taxes? | redblueamerica.com

Reason Foundation - Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...migration.html

Some undocumented workers are "private contractors" but that is not steady work. Those with regular jobs are paying taxes. Those that live in states with sales tax are paying. And they will never see a Social Security check.

Some use stolen ID, but I think you would have a hard time arguing that is a significant number, much lees the majority. Some are drug dealers, murderers and rapists, as well, but these are not terms we can use to talk about the general undocumented population.

You Native American comment is bizarre, as it implies America was a country and the Native population was unified in any way. America was made up of many "nations". The lack of an "immigration policy" was the least of the problems the Native population had when dealing with Western arrivals.

President Clinton has expressed his regrets about NAFTA. Just because what looked like a good idea turned out to be a bad idea is regrettable. Just because Mexico supported it, and then was essentially gutted by American corporations is the reality. Whether or not you feel sympathy doesn't really matter. Take NAFTA away, and the number of illegals goes down. It is that simple. Punish those that hire them, and they go down even more.

One of the main reasons that the US became so powerful and successful was because of slavery. Very easy to make a lot of money when you don't have to pay for labor. Its' continued prosperity also relies on one of the lowest minimum wages found in any developed country. For a lot of people to get very rich you need even more people who remain very poor, that's how capitalism works. Illegals are an excellent source of very cheap labor so it will only harm the US to crack down on them being able to stay and work. Only people competing for the jobs they do are trailer trash anyway! Arizona must have a lot of minimum wage earners for the illegals to be such an issue!! :mtongue:

Actually, the vast majority have fake IDs. Some are literally stolen, but for most of them, they buy fake documents with made up numbers on them, but many of those made up numbers are already taken. Thus, even though they didn't literally steal your identity, they are using your social security number, which can end up getting the real owner of that number in a lot of trouble. (And I've also seen times when the real owner of the number turned out to be a criminal and the illegal using the same number was caught by mistake).

About 60% of illegal aliens work for cash, so they pay no income or social security taxes.

Those who use fraudulent documents to get jobs do get taxes and such deducted from their paychecks, but their pay is generally around minimum wage, so little tax is actually paid.

One problem with illegal aliens using fraudulent documents is that they often use the names and social security numbers of legal citizens. Some people have had issues with credit reporting agencies and the IRS because of illegal aliens have been using their social security numbers.

As a side note, before you begin listing how much illegal aliens "pay" in taxes, you have to subtract the amounts of money spent on the imprisonment, medical care, and education of illegal aliens. In the end, the costs far outweigh the benefits.

If having illegal aliens in the state of Arizona was so profitable, do you really think the people of Arizona would have approved of this law?

Illegal aliens cost the state of Colorado $1.8 billion annually.

Illegal aliens cost the state of Illinois $3.5 billion annually.

Illegal aliens cost the state of California $10.5 billion annually.

Illegal aliens cost the state of Arizona $1.3 billion annually.

Illegal aliens cost the state of Nevada $640 million annually.

Illegal aliens cost the state of Oregon $830 million annually.

Illegal aliens cost the state of North Carolina $500 million annually.

etc. etc. etc.

The entire cost of illegal immigration to the taxpayers is approximately $246 billion annually. This is approximately 5 times the amount illegal aliens "pay" in federal taxes each year.


When I first began attending university in New Mexico, I had to pay out-of-state tuition rates because I was a legal resident of California. Non-resident tuition rates are quite a bit higher than the regular in-state tuition rates. Ironically, illegal aliens who do not legally reside in any state somehow qualify for in-state tuition. On top of that, since they are considered "minorities", they get placement preference over non-minorities and out-of-state students who are legal citizens.

This simply must stop.

If it were just a matter of how much illegal immigrants were getting paid it wouldn't be an issue, although with unemployment in double digits in Arizona it should be talked about more than it is.

The problems are that Arizona's prisons are full of illegal aliens, Arizona's hospitals are full of illegal aliens, and Arizona's schools are full of the children of illegal aliens. The net cost of illegal immigration to the state of Arizona is over $1 billion each year.

So if illegal immigrants are costing states so much money, why don't they take the simple step of fining the employers that hire these immigrants? The fines would help deflect these costs, and certainly it wouldn't be long before the employers stopped hiring them.

Do you have a link that shows this?

We have the majority working for cash under the table and the vast majority with fake IDs in the last few hours in the thread.

This doesn't seem to add up.

You didn't mark your sources so I can't confirm or deny for all the states you have listed. However, that 830 million number for my state is an estimate for 2010, and not an annual average.

Immigration to Oregon

When this report was made the cost was 471 million, according to this group.

I am not saying that is acceptable, but let's just make sure we are using the numbers accurately.

I think the new law sucks to be honest. I liked innocent until proven guilty better.

Yes, clamp down on companies that hire illigals. That's a big issue. Next build a wall/fence and guard it. That will help alot too, also arrest anyone who is caught across the border illigally, wich is half of them at least. It has to stop, talking is over, inforcement must take place. What's the point of haveing laws if none of them are inforced?

This country wasn't built on slavery, Yes there were slaves, but it wasn't built on it, that's bogus propaganda. 99% of people in the states didn't have a slave, they built the land themselves.

Slaves were only owned by a small % of wealthy land owners and utilized primarily for field labor. Plus, it wasn't cheap, they had to be housed, fed, clothed, taught english..not to mention the orignal price..wich in todays market would be 20,000 plus. Fact of the matter is the North didn't like the idea that the South had "free labor", since the Northern factories actually had to pay the street urchins they worked to death in sweat shops, a few pennies a week.

sorta not dude
 

please turn the light off when you leave this thread.

<hiss> NEWMAN!

Heh, that was actually pretty funny.

LINK:
Enforcing Arizona’s new immigration law

LINK:
Ride-along:
Arizona Cops Get Special Training - Video - FoxNews.com

How many in this thread fell in to this category:

Holder Admits to Not Reading Arizona's Immigration Law Despite Criticizing It

Sounds so much like the health care bill.

again sorta not
 

give it a rest.

This is the new conservative "battle cry". Let's not pretend that bills are any longer than they were 3 years ago, that conservative politicians read bills more than progressive ones, or that bills are not often written in difficult to understand language which is usually translated to the politician by lawyer-speak understanding advisors.

It's a fun argument to make, and more power to you for making it, but let's not pretend that since Obama has taken office all of sudden politicians on either side of the aisle have stopped reading their bills...10 pages or 2,000 pages long.

This is remarkable. The highest ranking legal advisor to the president comments on a law he has not read!. It is this administrations "mode of operation" - criticize first, read later.
This guy is the attorney general? Does anyone know what the attorney general does?
The highest ranking legal advisor to the president and comments on a law he has not read.

How incompetent can this be? The law is only a couple of pages long but he just can't be bothered. This is what this he does for a living. Just read the damn bill.

However time and time again in this adminstration, remarks are made without knowing the whole story in order to further an agenda. No more beer sumits and no more critisims on false accusations. This stuff needs to end now. Just the truth and only the truth.

Yes, bills have been brought to a vote before even being read, which was obvious in the health care bill. 2000 pages and a couple of hours to read it, or "we'll have to pass it before we know what is in it".

Yes there is decadence on both sides. We are closer every day to being Greece while adding more entitlements and growing government. The dems hold the majority, in the house, the senate and adminstation. This administration has really brought it to a head.

To be fair these aren't small bills here, these really "are" fundamental changes, as the president put it. Tarp, stimulus, bailouts, healthcare, wealth distribution, war, existing failing entitlement programs, growth of government, debt. These aren't going well and I see the wrong issues or non-issues being addressed as if there is no priority, at all!

Okay I'm off topic now but we can agree: No more charlatons; on either side. No more John McCains either. It will start in November.

Speaking of Greece. MSNBC's Brian Williams on Greece. Is he quoting Glenn Beck?
YouTube - David Letterman - Brian Williams on Wall Street's Free Fall
This is no joke folks. Those aren't anti-government protestors in the street in Greece.

Is this really remarkable?

Are you feigning naiveté, Clint, or do you really think we are experiencing a dramatic change in administrative policy when members of Cabinet speak about bills (in this case an Arizona state bill) that hasn't been read word-for-word?

Why would it surprise you that the Attorney General of the United States has not read every state bill that goes into state law?

But really, before our panties get too binded into knots, let's look at his exact words, according to your source, FOX News.

1) Three time in the article they use the term "voiced concerns". This is a ubiquitous phrase that doesn't call for the thunder and lightning you are trying to bring.

2) Attorney General Holder says he "fears the new law is subject to abuse". These are the same fears we have been talking about over the last couple weeks.

3) "On Thursday, Holder said he plans to read the law before reaching a decision on whether he thinks it's constitutional." So what is the problem? Your concerns are addressed in the very article you quote. Are you starting to see how FOX News operates?

4) "On Sunday, Holder said he does not think Arizona's law is racially motivated but voiced concern that its enforcement could lead to racial profiling." Again, the same things we have been talking about.

Here is a timely ditty on this topic.
Lewis Black on Glenn Beck on AZ Imigration Law