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New Law in the U.S. State: Arizona
Arizona has passed a law allowing police to ask for country legalization I.D. when stopped by authorities. Arizona has passed this controversial law because conditions have continued to worsen there and because the federal government has failed in their duty to secure the borders.
FOXNews.com - Arizona immigration conflict heats up I applaud the Governor's efforts to uphold U.S.C. Sec. 1325. "8 USC Sec. 1325 (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." Some groups are making this out to be racial. The president calls this "misguided". How is this new Arizona law any different than U.K., Canada, Japan, Korea law on the subject? What are your thoughts? |
Quite a subjective law, and I find it self-defeating to put into prison for months to a year any person from a different country trying to enter the U.S. illegally.
Essentially: "Trying to enter illegally. Ha, we'll show you! Go to our jail for six months and don't have to worry about food, shelter, or clothing. That'll learn ya!" Also, I had heard protestors against this law will show up at a Cubs/Diamondbacks baseball game today (or whenever the next game is). Should make for easy Nielsen points for the newscasts... |
it's fine,just don't break the law and you might be alright.
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I don't carry around papers proving I'm an American, so I wont be entering new police-state Arizona any time soon.
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Though i think immigration reform is needed. This is not the answer to the problem it only gives law enforcement the right to stop and question any person they believe to be illegal. Given the location of the state and what majority of americans believe ill give you one guess whos going to be stopped and questioned. Its not whites its not blacks and its not asians its going to be Latino's. Now i understand that since Arizona is on the boarder of course thats who they were look at it. But imagine being a Latino American you were born here and being stopped 3-4 times a week asking to show ID.
Not to mention that so many people are misguided about illegal immigration. People screaming they dont pay taxes and that they are taking advantage of the medical,welfare and other service in the county. Its just not true to qualify for any government aid you need to have SSN and many illegals who have fake one dont want the government examining their SSN so they dont qualify nor do they partake in those services. Also, majority of Illegals who have fake SSN actually pay higher taxes because they fear if they pay too little they will be examined or audited hence the government finding out they are illegal. If you want to immigrate here i have no problem with that but you have to do it lawfully those who break the law and are caught need to be identified, finger printed and put on list and sent back to their home country not kept in jail with free food and shelter which will cost tax payers even more money. I believe in reform not the racial profiling which this law will undoubtedly create. I feel for Arizona residents since the Feds have done nothing to fix the problem but this is not right. |
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The police must stop suspects with a primary offense as always; this hasn't changed. One must have identification in his or her possession when driving. As for when not driving: Failure to provide identification to a police officer can be considered interfering with the officer's performance of their duties, which can get you in trouble. In any state you aren't required to carry an ID. However, the Supreme Court said that withholding ID from a police officer is not a protected activity under the 1st Amendment. Quote:
This is the same double standard presented when additional searches when Americans have to fly; even domestically. Quote:
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Many Arizonians welcome this and will consent to providing ID if they can get some control back, lower the crime rate and perhaps be able to help domestic employment. Quote:
It is true that keeping dangerous criminals in jail is a drain on the system but what is the alternative. |
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"Hey, you look brown. Prove that you are an American." |
It is state-government funded harassment.
If state governments want to reduce the number of illegal immigrants coming into their state there is a simple solution: punish the employers that hire them. Hire illegals, and pay a fine. Do it again, and be shut down for a week, do it again and lose your business licence. Instead chasing around those generally doing little more than try to make a better life for themselves and their families, why not take the much easier route to shut down those who hire them. Instead of the police asking for papers in a police state, it should be the employers. |
Don't be silly MMM. We can't punish business. How unCapitalistic!
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When you see thousands of ants devouring a lollipop which is easier: remove the ants or remove the lollipop? What are the results of each option? |
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This move is really making headlines in Texas and spawning ideas.
I tend to agree with Sinestra's concerns and MMM's enforcement ideas. But at least AZ went about this with more rationality that the idiotic "wall" that a certain lame-brained ex-pres came up with, or the apparently out-of -juridiction attempt made in Farmers Branch, TX. Personally I am more than miffed about having to produce a stupid Social Security card that was printed for me FOURTY years ago. What moron thinks a flimsy piece of paper should be carried at all times for 4 DECADES?!? I have a perfectly valid passport and a legal Driver license from the same governmental issuing agency for 38 years, but that is not good enough for some "authorities". And it isn't just non-whites being stopped. I was pulled over in SW Texas by a federal officer. My husnand and I were interrogated at length along the roadside because this guy had a quota to check and then didn't recognize the two towns we were born in - they were words from Algonquin and Caddo tribes.:mad: I can just imagine how that is NOT going to work any better in AZ. |
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There is no pretty end to this illegal problem, but the fact that peoples feelings are going to be hurt for having to provide / show Green Cards isn't a new law; it is a federal law. Quote:
To All: To those who want to read the bill: LINK: Documents For Bill LINK: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf I see nothing in there about racial profiling. This problem isn't going to be solved by waiting for the federal government. In the end if Arizona and like states aren't even able to start here and ask for proof of identification the problem(s) will never be solved. Much of the free world has this in place pretty much already. |
Is there any question that by making law enforcement officers force citizens to prove their citizenship that non-whites are going to be targeted more than whites?
Again, this is government sponsored harassment of people at the expense of the rights of legal citizens. Do we really support the discrimination and loss of more rights by legal citizens? |
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I think you should submit this to Arizona state legislator. It isn't working. Too many loop holes for those who want to hire illegals, and bad for businesses who hire them by being duped by fake documentation or SSNs. The illegals are going to keep coming work available or not because the lifestyle here is still a step up from where they are coming from. The U.S. has to attack this from both sides. Just going after businesses is not going to help. Arizona is now just enforcing the federal laws the federal officials are not able or are unwilling to enforce. If Washington D.C. was on the border, this would be a non-issue to the federal government. How is the government able to enforce "illegal to enter the country without proper documentation" if law enforcement is unable to ask for it? |
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15 immigration laws; indemnification 16 A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR 17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY ADOPT A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR 18 RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL 19 EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW. 20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). This means a cop can stop anyone for any reason and bring you in for not having papers that prove you are a legal citizen. It's that simple. |
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The fact is it is a federal law already on the books having to provide their green card or proof of citizenship that the state is now empowering their law enforcement to do only after being stopped for a primary offense AND if they meet certain criteria, none of which is race. People meeting such criteria disclosed in the bill, would be "carded" , regardless of race. Again no different than any country as far as asking for ID, <cough> Japan, but a lot more liberal. What rights are we losing? |
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Forcing one group of legal citizens to carry a different level of identification than other groups is discrimination. Quote:
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How is the government able to enforce "illegal to enter the country without proper documentation" if law enforcement is unable to ask for it?[/quote] This encourages the proactive hunting of undocumented residents by the use of "reasonable suspicion": a very vague and a bit frightening amount of power to give. |
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You missed the leading part of the sentence that said "Lawful contact" There has to be lawful contact. And the race card being where? (as you left my comment about where is racial profiling). This is a federal law already; the state is now allowing state law enforcement to do what the federal government isn't accomplishing. |
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Let's say I am a Latino man born in Phoenix, AZ. Just by the fact that I am a person of color, I am a suspect. Sorry, I don't have a green card. I am not an immigrant. But now I have to have a different level of paperwork ...have to carry my original birth certificate or valid passport around with me ...where my white neighbor doesn't. Quote:
That's a pretty big one, Clint. |
Welp, I guess I won't be going to Arizona, nope, not even to get to some other place, My folks are from Puerto Rico, We'd be stopped plenty of times I bet . . .
I know 9/11 has drawn some lines but isn't this a bit much? |
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businesses from hiring as that is just a piece of the illegal activities some of the businesses are involved in. No more than government will be able to stop all crime. Secondly, even if there isn't work, they will still come because it is simply a better life just to survive the problems of their home country. The problem with that comes a drain on resources and eventually the rise in crime for those just trying to survive. Quote:
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sorta not
Arizona is following down the path - that the state of California followed with the 'epic fail wagon' called prop 187' - passed in 1994 and l8tr struck down by the federal courts in 1997'.
the first line in prop 187- 1.All law enforcement agents who suspect that a person who has been arrested is in violation of immigration laws must investigate the detainee's immigration status, and if they find evidence of illegality they must report it to the attorney general of California, and to the federal Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS). |
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Even if you are an American born 100% pure citizen. I don't see how you could support this, Clint. This seems to go against everything you believe in, assuming you think citizens of color have the same rights as white citizens. |
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WHERE IS THE SKIN COLOR OR RACE WRITTEN INTO THE BILL? What if the driver can't speak English? Can state law enforcement ask them then? They could ask any one they want. They could ask a 73 year old white lady if they wanted to if it fits the profile of possibly being in the country illegally. Quote:
Are you against the police questioning ANYONE about their immigration status? I don't see anything in the bill about carrying a passport or birth certificate. In Arizona a legal/real State ID or State DL is allowed because they actually do background checks unlike some states. What country are you going to go that doesn't already do this? |
Well, I'll just go out there and say I attended the protests on Sunday.
This bill is a joke, and if you honestly believe that there will be no racial profiling, you have to look no further than our own "infamous" Sheriff Arpaio. Additionally, with our state's economy is already in shambles, education being in the miserable half-dead state it is in, it won't be able to take the fallout that is most certainly coming as a result. Remember Arizona's refusal to recognize MLK day as a holiday, and the boycotts that followed and caused it to lose billions because of it. As a hispanic, I will not be surprised if me or my family is stopped. But if I am, I will refuse to speak English. Quote:
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Again the lawful contact refers to having someone engaged in suspicious activity. That suspicious activity doesn't include being in the country illegally alone. Walking down main street... NO. Walking along the side of the border. Yes. Not being able to produce ID and not speaking English. Yes. Yes I do agree even though law enforcement won't be questioning a lot of white or black individuals on the street; it doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen. INDIRECTLY this is racial profiling, but the fact is the PROBLEM is with people of racial background from south of the border in Arizona. Would you be happy with law enforcement being required to ask for State ID or DL for ALL individuals to be politically correct or just not being allowed to question anyone immigration status? Don't tell me what I believe in buddy boy. Why don't you just come on out and say I'm a racist for backing this. I have no problem with being asked for State ID or DL if I lived on a border state with problems resulting from illegals. I see... we'll never be able to ask anyone of any of any race their immigration status because their exists more than one race on the face of the planet. Sticking your thumb in your mouth and saying fining businesses is going to fix this major problem isn't going to work. Illegals come here for all kinds of things, besides work. |
There shouldn't be a need to explain that racial profiling will occur because it would be the leading reason to "suspect" that someone isn't an American. It obviously doesn't have to be written into the law for the connection to be clear. The chances of a white immigrant illegally entering the United States are much, much lower than a non-white immigrant illegally entering the United States. The law gives permission for police to require proof of legal status based on skin color because it does not directly state that skin color does not constitute suspicion.
Also, the country's official language is not English, so why should an inability to speak English constitute a need to present proof of citizenship? |
"It is a dangerous game stirring up fears of people being hunted down and put in jail because of their race or nationality. The law specifically bans picking up someone just because they are Hispanic or even because the person was originally from Mexico or any other country you can read a copy of the law right here.
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf Anyone arrested for a crime must have their immigration status determined before they are released. Thus, it is not just Hispanics who will be required to provide evidence of citizenship, but so will all whites, blacks and Asians. If the eligibility for public services depends on citizenship, again, everyone who applies, regardless of race, will have to provide an ID. In other circumstances, law enforcement officials must have reasonable suspicion, not based simply on the person's race or origin, that the individual is an illegal alien before they can ask to check someone's ID." "Police today already have to deal with the "reasonable suspicion" standard all the time in other areas of law enforcement, and most understand very well how this standard limits what they can do. Police know that they can't pull over drivers for fear that they are smuggling drugs just because they are of a certain race. "Reasonable suspicion" requires that the known facts and circumstances are sufficient to convince a person of "reasonable prudence" that a crime has been committed. Obviously in a state such as Arizona, with an estimated half a million illegal immigrants, the vast majority OF illegal aliens are going to be Hispanic. But the reasonableness standard used by Arizona specifically requires something other than just race or national origin. The ID requested is hardly draconian: a driver's license, a non-operating identification license, valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification, or "any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification." Rather than requiring multiple IDs as some fear, the law clearly says that "any" of the IDs is sufficient. And the notion of having to carry IDs is not something unique to Arizona. President Obama and many Democrats, such as Senator Charles Schumer, support a national ID card, so it hard to argue that Arizona's requirement will impose an undue burden. Even if a person does not present the required ID, that doesn't necessarily mean the person faces problems. The new Arizona law requires that "a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Today, this is not hard to accomplish quickly as computer records have photographs and other identifying details for people who have state-issued IDs. The only exception to making "a reasonable attempt" is if making that investigation would "hinder or obstruct" a criminal investigation. That isn't going to effect many cases." Written by journalist John Lott. |
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The federal government has failed to provide adequate funding for the imprisonment of tens of thousands of illegal aliens, leaving states to come up with the money to pay for incarceration. Illegal aliens have swamped the emergency rooms of hospitals throughout the country, and since they never pay for their treatment, the taxpayers have to, and the burden of these payments lie with the states, and not the federal government. Arizona finally said "enough!" As for making a better life for themselves and their families, wouldn't it make more sense for these people to do something to improve the living conditions in their own countries? If that doesn't happen, the quality of life in these countries will continue to deteriorate, as will the living conditions in America. Illegal immigration has driven down the wages in many fields like carpentry, masonry, and such. Jobs now in 2010 pay less than they did in 1985. Many American citizens no longer do such work because it doesn't pay well enough. Another problem in the border areas are the schools. In El Paso and other areas, parents often drive their children across the border to attend elementary schools in America. Technically, this is illegal, as the parents and children are not citizens or taxpayers. In El Paso and Hudspeth counties the student populations at the schools are larger than the populations of the towns where the schools are located. Each student costs taxpayers approximately $1100 per month to educate in a public school, yet the parents of these students don't pay a dime. It's funny to go by these schools in the morning and afternoon and see the large numbers of cars lined up out front with Chihuahua license plates. The school administrators turn a bind eye to this problem because they like the extra money the schools get in funding, if non-citizens were barred from attending the public schools, they would lose perhaps 40% of their funding. Residents in El Paso county had their property taxes increased last year to increase the funding of local hospitals which have been inundated with illegal aliens. Even with this funding, hospitals such as Thomason's are losing millions of dollars per year for unpaid treatments. In Mexico, the president actually hands out fliers to Mexican citizens advising them to cross into America illegally to get treatment for injuries and disease. Fliers are also given to those planning to enter America illegally, showing roads, and places where food and water can be found. Enough in enough. |
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Police can detain anyone, citizen or not, whether they be white, black, brown, or green for not carrying valid identification. If I pull you over two blocks from your home for speeding, and if you aren't carrying any ID, I can charge you for not carrying a valid ID and detain you until your identification is verified. This rarely happens, as it usually takes only a moment to verify someone's ID over the radio or computer. |
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But AS YOU STATED, the majority of illegal immigrants are people of color. Therefore to ask someone of color to show they are legal is really the spirit of the law. Quote:
Many say he has no proof of citizenship as he doesn't have an original birth certificate. Would an out of state license and copy of a birth certificate be good enough? I live in a state that does not do background checks like Arizona. If I visit Arizona without a passport or original birth certificate, can I be deported? |
New laws will be release in the future, what we need is to comply with it
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Get real. Let's not pretend that the employers of millions of undocumented workers in the US are doing their damnedest to only hire legal workers. Just because the law is not well enforced (hmm...wonder why) doesn't mean it is OK to break it...or does it? Again, take away the lollipop and the ants disappear. It's a lot easier and cheaper than trying to clear away the ants...especially knowing that get rid of this nest and there is another nest waiting to get to that lollipop. An unlimited supply. Now the law enforcement agencies of Arizona want the federal gov't to pay for the training of their 15,000 officers. So they want to use my tax dollars to pay for this awful law? I don't think so. And why is Arizona passing laws it can't pay for? Quote:
I agree police can detain anyone. That's the problem with THIS law, as it isn't about anyone, but anyone with a REASONABLE SUSPICION of being an illegal immigrant. Have an accent? Migrant farm worker? Have brown skin? Ride in the back of a pickup? REASONABLE SUSPICION by LAWFUL CONTACT. Like you said, a cop can pull anyone over. |
Here's a question to bring up: What do you think were the good points these people thought of as benefits for this law? Why WOULD this be good, for who? Or what?
EDIT: Hm? Me? Ummm . . .My guess is to prevent drug smuggling . . . |
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Unfortunately the vague wording of the law makes LEGAL aliens and LEGAL citizens targets as well. This is the problem, and I am surprised some of the most conservative and small-government, right-protectors would find anything good about a law that takes rights away and allows state harassment of legal immigrants and natural-born citizens. |
I couldn't be happier with this, personally. Arizona should be congratulated. Illegal immigration has been a huge problem in the US, and, particularly in a financial bind like the one it's in now, America can't afford to continue to let non-citizens use its hospitals and schools. I find it amusing that Obama calls Arizona's efforts "misguided." They're doing more to solve the problem than he or any other president has done so far. Not only that, but Obama and many Americans in politics are far too soft with foreigners in general. I'm not against immigration if it's legal, but Obama is actually for the opinion that AMERICANS should learn SPANISH, and that Mexican immigrants, legal or not, should NOT have to learn English. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If you move into a country, you speak its language, plain and simple. I'd love to see what would happen if an American tried to go to Mexico and didn't bother to learn to speak Spanish.
But I'm getting off-topic here. My thoughts: Arizona, you are awesome. I hope the rest of America will follow Arizona's example and stop letting themselves be walked all over. I don't even LIVE in America, yet the way they have been letting illegal immigrants walk all over them has been annoying me constantly. Someone did a rant online about it, responding to all those who argue that illegal immigrants "just want a better life." He basically said that, if middle-class Americans tried to climb over a rich person's fence and swim in his pool, eat his food, etc., they wouldn't get any sympathy. Illegal immigrants in America are basically the same thing; they climb over middle-class Americans' fences and steal their things, and they're not in any life-threatening danger like refugees. It's infuriating. Three cheers for Arizona! |
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There is a reason nondocumented people come here. Who is responsible? The federal government? Or how about the people that hire them? Quote:
Please, applaud this law all you want, but never again complain about big government taking your rights away. Quote:
Before he became the president, Mr. Obama said more Americans should learn a foreign language. How can you argue with that? Are you saying Americans SHOULDN'T learn a foreign language? Maybe we should stop learning math and geography, too. Quote:
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But wait a minute. You were just complaining that the president said we SHOULD learn a foreign language. Are you saying Americans shouldn't go to foreign countries? Quote:
That seems odd to me. Quote:
Let's see...you live in Mexico with nothing, or go to America where they are hiring hardworking people just like you to work in their fields. Maybe the conditions aren't ideal, but you can make 10 times what you make at home, and even if it is risky, you have parents and family that need to eat. Are they "stealing"? Maybe, but since fruits and vegetables rot on the vines when migrant workers are run out of town, it isn't like there are Americans who are willing to take these jobs. Is that "stealing" jobs? How about going after the employers that hire illegal employees and shut them down? Wouldn't that be a lot easier and cheaper? Take away the lollipop and the ants disappear. |
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Why would that be illegal? Quote some law, some violation of civil or constitutional rights when you say these things because you are just not making any sense. What are you talking about? What are you reading? They can't ask a Canadian, Chinese, Middle eastern etc etc etc the same questions? YES THEY CAN. Quote:
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Maybe if he wasn't the president and he was walking along the border and couldn't produce ID and if he was suspicious of being an illegal. Take your Obama bait back to the Obama Hope and Change thread... I thought you have had enough a thrashing already there. Obama is the one putting people into groups now with his latest speech to put people into groups again by calls for young, black, Latino, women voters. YouTube - President Obama Announces Vote 2010 Quote:
Now you are just being foolish. Yeah, maybe if you'll play your cards right they give you free bus/air fair back to Portland. No, no birth certificate, no passport is required but are acceptable forms of ID, but you do have to produce ID as disclosed in the bill in English by the John Lott article I posted. No different than most places if you are asked by law officials for ID and you fail to produce, then you can be held until you do. They don't have quite the same situation in Portland as they do in Arizona. There is truly a big problem there that is affecting the country as a whole and this jerky attitude that we can't ask people if they are here legally and produce some ID because we might be hurt someone's feelings. This bill doesn't discriminate. They can ask any race they choose. It is an insult to those who came to this country legally NOT to try to take illegals back to their country. The gangs and the crime coming across the border is killing America literally and economically; yet the Obama has sat on his hands the whole time along with Janet no security Napolitano do not do what the federal government is supposed to do. 70% of the Arizona population are thrilled with the state's movement, as they should be. Japanese police can ask for my ID to see if I'm legally in the country at anytime too. Are they racists? Are they Nazis too? |
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