Should Japan distance herself from the U.S.?
 

I personally believe it is in Japanese best interest to distance ourselves from the U.S.

1) have our own military and have the U.S. forces leave
2) work on closer ties with China and SEA.
3) don't depend on the U.S. market, work on markets everywhere.
4) Balance the economy by importing far less expensive fashion goods.

Japan doesn't have to be a huge economy to have a healthy economy and we wouldn't need U.S. protection from our neighbors if we didn't side with the U.S. in the first place.

I think this is really a question for the residents of JAPAN.

will they benefit if distanced from AMERICA?

I think Japanese got to ans this themselves, but I think unless Japan can rely less on USA economic (like Automobile trading) I don't think Japan has much choices, but to follow the USA.

I don't really like the idea of having US bases in Japan either Kanagawa or Okinawa, but please ask yourself "How could Japan defense itself from North Korea in case of war?"

I'm curious: Why China?

For improving your defense I suggest taking this self-defense course :D
YouTube - Monty Python - Self-Defense Against Fruit

Let me answer those individually:

1) The Japanese already have the self-defense forces, and it's one of the more powerful militaries in the world. I think Japan and the US should have more of a partnership, with Japan assuming more responsibility and the US slowly phasing back, but still keeping a military presence there as a deterrent to attacks from NK and China.

2) They can and should work on repairing relations with China and SEA, but not replace the US with those ties. If China and SEA demand that Japan be hostile to or overly critical of the US in order to be friends, then they aren't friends at all.

3) Yes, of course they should look for markets everywhere. I think products made in Japan can be found all over the world... surely Europe and other places have Sony and other Japanese items.

4) I don't think you balance the economy by allowing or disallowing things to be imported. If a company sends its goods to Japan and they don't sell, then they won't send them as much or at all. If they do sell, they'll send them. Some Japanese are very fashion-conscious and only want expensive brand-name goods. I think the culture needs to become more accepting of non-label goods in order for those items to stop selling as much. Banning their imports will just create a craze to get them, like it used to be with Levi jeans.

As for your final comment, it's ridiculously naive to think that "not being friends with the US" will appease neighbors like North Korea. In fact, that will be like waving a red cape in front of a bull...

hell yes!

America is the most dangerous nation on earth.

You know, comments like that don't exactly help your side of the debate.

im not the op

I think I have to agree with pretty much everything samurai007 said... just out of curiosity though, I'd like to hear some justification & reasons for why you think this, chiuchimu. In your opinion, how should Japan go about the things on your list, and what would be the desired outcomes of each?

4) Importing less expensive fashion goods will not balance the economy. The majority of goods imported by Japan are food and energy, expensive fashion goods make only a ghost of a fraction of the total goods which Japan imports.

3) The US market is the largest in the world, equaling roughly the amount of the rest of the world combined. Japan markets their products just as heavily to the rest of the world, but high taxation in Europe and lack of money in other economies limits how much can be sold there.

2) China is more of a competitor than a friend to Japan, and though ties have grown closer over the decades, Japan knows that any great gains in the Chinese economy in the future will come at great cost to the Japanese economy. Economists and business people in Japan recognize China as a growing power and potential customer, but they are actually increasing their ties to America, just as Korea, Taiwan, and even Vietnam are.

1) Japan is constitutionally banned from having a standing military. This constitutional ban would be exceedingly difficult to change even if the people wanted to do it, and at the moment, they don't. Japan pays for half the expenses of stationing American military forces in Japan, which provides them with the help of the world's largest and most advanced military, and at a low cost.

You have to realize that Japan is a small island nation with limited resources, and with it's current population levels it is impossible for Japan to be self-sufficient. The Japanese are aware of this, and have built their economy accordingly, and they have done a good job under the circumstances; Japanese enjoy the highest standard of living in Asia.

The number one subject in Japanese universities is and has for decades been economics, and the Japanese understand a great deal about this subject. All of the suggestions you have listed above have been discussed at length, and found to be unworkable or to have no merit.

The Japanese, like anyone else, put themselves first when it comes to deciding important policies, but even so, they believe that the course they have followed since the end of the war has been the best one, as it has brought them the highest level of prosperity they have ever known.

The current system may not be perfect, but then there is no such thing as a perfect system, and for all it's faults, it has worked quite well.

As far as I can tell the political issues between the two countries have had little effect on the economic relations between China and Japan. They have the 3rd largest trading relationship in the world. Political relations should improve but both countries have a lot of mostly historical issues with the other and these will take time to mend, especially with both being very proud nations making compomise difficult to reach at times.
If Japan really wants to improve relations with SEA it really needs to accept responisbility, apologise and possibly make some reparations for the damage it caused during WWII. It's arrogant dismisal of such issues in the past hasn't helped it one bit.

The real question here is what benefits would Japan receive by distancing itself from the US? How would it help Japan? The US is still Japans biggest trading partner and throughout it's history I believe it's had a significant trade surplus with the US. Some political distancing may not be a bad thing but not at the cost of trade relations.

I, personally (while knowing it's not at all realistic), Think it is stupid to even be debating about such things, I really just wish we all just got along! Then again, this is coming just from me and my perspective- But, will something like distancing yourself from an economical monster like the U.S. really help Japan at all? And is it really in Japan's greatest interest? I hate my country with a passion for it's government, and being over-enthusiastic about itself, and I may only have 16 years of experience but we have one hell of an army, as far as I'm concerned. And I agree, it would only help make Japan the "red flag" to the bulls like North Korea.

After the end of the war Japan had no choice but to become close to America as their unconditional surrender put Japan under full American control. The end of the war completely broke down the prewar government and industrial systems in which a limited number of people and companies controlled the vast majority of land and industry. Following the war, ownership of the land and industry was greatly redistributed to the people, and for the first time in memorable history Japanese farmers actually owned the farms they worked.

Douglas MacArthur was instrumental in designing the framework of modern Japan, as he had more or less a free hand in administering the country. The generation of Japanese which followed the war are called "MacArthur's Children", and though MacArthur was the man primarily in charge of Japan's military defeat, he enjoyed incredible respect in the country following the war. Some even say that he was more loved in Japan than he was in America.

As a virtual American colony during the early postwar years, Japan's close relationship with the US was inevitable. In the years that followed Japan became increasingly independent and autonomous, but the economic and even ideological relationship became stronger. The US and Japan colluded together during the Cold War to prevent the spread of communism in Asia, and Japan was instrumental (though not obviously so) to America during the Korean and Vietnam wars.

In order to encourage Japanese capitalism (and thwart the rise of Asian socialism) Japan was encouraged by America to increase it's industry and exports, and America itself was the largest consumer of these.

Obvious cultural differences aside, Japan and America are more closely related to one another than they are to any other country. This has benefited both countries.

What benefit would it be for Japan to open a closer partnership to China? China can not and will not become the world's largest economy unless it becomes as close to America as Japan has been.

Korea has not become closer to China. They have invested in China out of professional interest, but Korea knows that China is the one who pulls North Korea's strings, so there will never be a close relationship between the two. Taiwan will never become close to China for the obvious reasons, and South East Asia's only other socialist country, Vietnam, has been quietly severing it's ties with China and increasing it's friendship with America. For the first time since the end of the Vietnam war, an American Navy carrier group has entered Vietnamese waters at the behest of the Vietnamese.

The powers-that-be in Asia are afraid of a too-strong China, and they wish to retain their independence. Their only hope of retaining such independence is through closer ties with America. The European economy cannot match America's, and Europe no longer possesses the military necessary power to keep China at bay. If you haven't been watching the news in recent months, America has been slowly building up it's military presence in Asia. In addition to the above mentioned carrier group now off Vietnam, 3 ballistic missile submarines have also been deployed around Asia. This tends to show which way the wind is blowing in terms of the rest of Asia's thoughts on China vs America.

helo folks
 

what i would like to say is that we should not worried about USA he is already facing terrible crises their economy is going down day by day.

Only until we turn things around... the 2010 election is the start of that, and hopefully 2012 will finish the job.

Although Japan sells produces all around the world, Japan relies too heavily on the huge U.S. market for her economy. The U.S. knows this and threatens to restrict or place tariffs on Japanese imports if Japan doesn't side with the U.S.

For more than 50 ,years now, even though the U.S. was changed its position on international issues each time it switches parties, Japan has been in lock step with American. this is obviously not a coincidence. Japan has to side with the U.S. in order to receive favorable trade agreements. I like to point out, this is not the U.S. fault. Japan was a fully welling partner in this relationship. But, this is the current state of affairs.

Having military bases in japan was been the U.S. plan since immediately after WW2. Military bases in Japan checks Russian and Chinese activity. The importance of Japanese bases proved its worth during the Korean war. The whole war was conducted out of Japan. The Russians, Chinese and North Koreans look at the military bases as the first line of intrusion of the U.S. and look at Japan as a puppet state of the U.S. If Japan did not have these bases, Russia and China would not look at Japan as a threat. North Korea is a threat, but if Japan has discussions with China and lets her know Japan wants to remove U.S. presents and needs Chinese protection from NK until Japan's own military is fully built up, I think China would definitely go along. furthermore, good relations with China and Russia means more exporting to those countries as well as low cost labor that can bring down the prices of Japanese goods around the world to compete with say U.S. and Korean goods.

Lately, Japan has a serious problem buying way too much brand named fashion goods like bags perfumes shoes etc..A purse alone cost several hundred dollars. Most of the expendable money made by single women between 20~40 goes to buying this exports. I haven't even included what the boyfriends buy for their girls. I've read that if Japan didn't buy all this brand named fashion stuff and instead bought Japanese goods, the effect of recirculating the money would very well bring Japan out of its 20 year recession. It would be nice if people voluntarily chose a little protectionism on their own, but since that will never happen, I think import restrictions and high tariffs are needed. You can't stop the recession by selling more alone - you have to also stop the bleeding so the money can recirculate.

Anyway, that's what I believe is the current situation between the U.S. and Japan i would be interested to here other opinions or takes on whats really going on and what should be done about it.

Politics, Politics.

This is why i didnt become a lawyer.

(lol this has nothing to do with that, right) xD

SDF is not strong enough to find off an attack from China NK. China wouldn't even be a threat if U.S. bases weren't there.


Like when the U.S. was pressuring Japan to cut relation with China after the Tienanmen Squire incident? That means U.S. is not our friend either.


If Spain cuts back on Japanese imports, it doesn't cause a recession. With the U.S., it can.

I'd prefer a grass-roots movement but if not, laws need to be written. All countries write laws and have agreements about import/export to safeguard their respective economies. Put a 100% tariff on those GUCCI , louis vuitton, and Coach stuff. They make a $50 handbag and sell it for $500 and the stupid girls in Japan buy 5 ~20 each, then there's the clothing, jewelry, makeup, accessories etc... Anyone still wonders why Japan is still in a recession?


That's backwards, they have aggression towards us because we side with the U.S. and provide U.S. presence in the heart of Asia. It's the same reason the U.S. has such strong feelings against a tiny country called Cuba. Cuba is a few miles from Florida and sided with the Russians. Ever heard of the Cuban missile Crisis? id you think U.S. hated Cuba just because of Castro?

chiuchimu, I find myself agreeing with your sentiment about expensive hand bags and all that kinda stuff. I think they're a waste of money and sometimes wonder what people could do if they used their money on more useful things.

However, I'm not so sure that putting an end to that could make such a huge difference. Why are you talking primarily about handbags and fashion goods? Your original statement was that Japan should distance herself from the US. All those fashion goods you've mentioned seem to be from European countries. Do you have any data that would suggest that if Japanese women stopped buying all those imported fashion goods then there would be significant changes economically for Japan?

Sometimes I just don't get why people decide to focus on certain things. Like the other day, I saw a sign in a town nearby that basically said "make sure to buy your cigarettes in your hometown!". Instead of deterring people from smoking, they were basically encouraging it as long as you buy your cigarettes in your hometown. We're talking about getting taxes. They didn't say to buy only Japanese cigarettes either... in otherwords the taxes on imported cigarettes will support whatever town you buy them in. Likewise, I wonder if the same doesn't apply to expensive fashion goods.

Maybe a lot of these goods aren't that expensive, it's just Japan's way of making more money off of them. I doubt anyone here is into this kind of thing, but if you ever look at imported pro audio goods in Japan, the price difference is so extreme it's almost comical. For an example, an API 3124 mic pre will be about $2600 in America while in Japan it costs 390,000円. Given the exchange rate right now, that's paying something like 390,000円 for something that costs 220,000円 somewhere else. That's basically 175%.

Similarly, if you've ever looked at airplane tickets from Japan to the US vs from the US to Japan, you'll notice the prices are about double. Is there an explanation for that? I was always under the impression that it was the Japanese side of things raising the prices for their own benefits.

So while I have no basis other than the simple observations I've made for making this claim, I wonder if Japan isn't making a lot of money off of these imported goods due to taxes.

I think you are confused. It's when those "stupid" school girls STOP buying expensive handbags that hurts the economy and causes a recession.

Japan already has high tariffs. People in Japan are impressed I drive a Volvo because it is considered an expensive luxury car in Japan. That isn't as true in the US.

Discouraging spending is not the way to solve a recession. When foreign goods are sold in Japan, it doesn't mean that 100% of the money is flushed out of Japan. The goods are tariffed, so the government gets money. Importers and retailers (combined) take 40% to 75% of the take, so a majority of the money from that Gucci bag probably stays in Japan. I think it's time to rethink that strategy.

interesting numbers. I am a bet skeptical. I don't know the details of the industry so I leave the door open, but I would think brands like GUCCI distribute directly to the small retail stores not to mention the big chain department stores(why would they let a third party in?) . Anytime there is a thrid party the price goes up.

I thought the tariff on clothes bags etc.. was 10~20%? Did it change?

To answer someone else's question about what this has to do with distancing from U.S. the obvious answer is nothing directly. It is important to the economy of Japan and that is what the whole distancing from U.S. thing ultimately is about, Japanese economic future.

You can be skeptical if you want, but that is how it goes. A department store doesn't want to deal with 1000 different distributors, one for every brand. When you want to sell something new in Japan, (or most places, I would assume) you don't go to the store, but to a distributor. Why would they let a third party in? Because that's how business is done. Gucci has their own stores and offices in Japan, but, again, that's putting money into the Japanese economy, as well. Of all the single brand retail stores I have seen in Japan, all were hiring Japanese staff.

Theres almost always a 3rd party involved. People normally secure the rights to distribute certain brands within a country. So I would assume some enterprising Japanese entrepreneur approached Gucci to distribute their brand in Japan. I assume he and his company would be reaping it in!

Here's an example, a Fall 2010 Marc Jacobs bag retails for 90,000 yen at Seibu department store in Ginza. The same bag retails for $380 at the Marc Jacobs store in Boston. When you consider the difference in the currency exchange rate at the moment, the bag sells for exactly three times as much in Japan as it does in America. By all rights, with the strong yen, the bag should only cost 30,000 yen in Japan. But once you add the Japanese tariffs on such goods, and the percentages which go to the distributor and retailer, the price becomes as typically outrageous as Japanese prices on luxury goods tend to be. And yes, all this extra money stays in Japan.

America is not and has not been afraid of Cuba, America was afraid of the spread of a misguided ideology that has lead the deaths of countless millions of people. The Cuban missile crisis happened not long after Stalin's purges, and just before Chin's "Cultural Revolution". America was not wrong to fight this ideological disease and prevent it's spread.

That's what I was getting at in my post. At leas that's what I meant anyways. I've seen a lot of things being sold in Japan for WAY more than they would go for in America. So I'm looking at the original post in this thread and I'm wondering how he or she justifies their list.

I think I touched on it in my last post, but the fact that most of those "expensive fashion goods" come from other countries (not the USA) contradicts the 3rd proposal on the list, which states: "Don't depend on the US market, work on markets everywhere".

It may seem strange... and it really doesn't make sense to me (although I'm not that knowledgable on the subject), but I've heard that a lot of the rice grown in Japan (in my area at least) gets exported to China. It might only have a little to do with this thread, but I'm curious about that. Does anyone know anything about that?

EDIT:

Here's some links I found on the topic:

Asia Times Online :: Japan News and Japanese Business and Economy

Japan must aim to be rice exporter: expert | Reuters

Japan Pledges Stockpiled Rice Exports of 300,000 Tons (Update2) - Bloomberg

I think those articles give some insight. I also think that if you've ever been to a super market in Japan you know that they are dealing plenty with other countries. Those articles all seemed to mention Japan's dependence on agricultural goods from other countries. I think most of that stuff comes from China, whose vegetables have extremely competative prices (like Japanese shitake will cost about twice as much as Chinese ones... and the Chinese packages will come with twice as many mushrooms). Another thing I was surprised about is that a lot of certain seafood comes from other countries as well, particularly Octupi (is that right?) from Spain and that area.

sorta not
 

Cuban missile crisis happened in Oct. 1962' - Stalin died in 1953' ?
Cuba was ruled by a dictator Batista some called him a President, but history calls him a dictator, and military leader closely aligned with and supported by the United States.
Batista's corrupt and repressive regime systematically profited from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, in partnership with U.S. corporations and the American Mafia. As a result, for three years Fidel Castro's July 26th Movement and other rebelling elements led a guerrilla uprising against Batista's regime which culminated in his eventual defeat

It's actually America that wants Japan to show more military presence in the world, and it's America that wants Japan to not export so many cars to the states. So yeah, I agree Japan needs to reduce the degree of "reliance" on the states, but I don't think that means "distancing". And in order to do so, Japan needs to take care of her own problems like the communists in schools, Korean lobbyists, bureaucratic inertia, etc.

They only sold 100 metric tons in China so far.
日本米が大量の売れ残り　中国、高価で消費者敬遠 - 47NEWS（よんななニュース）
The article says Japanese rice costs dozen times more than Chinese ones, so I don't think it will be a big trend.

I would think that Japanese rice would cost more... so it didn't make much sense to me. However, supposedly the "rich" in China amount closely to the entire population of Japan. So maybe there is that "niche" market for that kind of import in China.

Cranks, I would like to learn more about "the communists in schools, Korean lobbyists, bureaucratic inertia, etc." Could you elaborate on that?

You say that like "America" is one voice. There are those that feel like Japan should defend itself as it is one of the biggest economies in the world, but then again there are those that are happy to take the responsibility on.

These little problems in Japan like Communist schools and Korean lobbyists are minor blips on the radar. Bureaucratic inertia is part of Japan's cultural imperative.

I don't have proof. Do you?

One problem. Even though the Boston stores are called Marc Jacobs, they also go thru a third party right? The argument is all stores selling GUCCI are going thru third parties. I know there are GUCCI stores in Japan, like they have 54 of them or something like that. Why would the GUCCI stores in Japan go thru a third party and the Marc Jacobs in Boston not? Otherwise this whole argument got blown out of the water.

I totally disagree. The U.S. almost went to war with Russia over it. The U.S. pretty much cut off Cuba from the world( the U.S. and its Alias) to try to strangle it into submission. It didn't work an to this day, U.S. hasn't changed its overall policy towards Cuba even though U.S.- Russian relations have totally changed.

What is the core of your argument? It sounds to me like:
1) US in Japan is good because U.S. is a pious nation.
2) USSR in Cuba is bad because Soviets are evil.

I'm saying:
1) China and Russia feel threatened with U.S. in Japan
2) U.S. felt threatened with Russia in Cuba.

There certainly are Gucci stores in Japan. Are they all company owned or are they franchises? I've no idea can't be bothered checking.
In my experience in the outdoors industry in Australia (many years back) if there is an overseas manufacturer of a product you want to sell in your country then your can approach them for a distributor lisence. Depending on how big the market is you can sometimes negotiate to be the sole distributor or there may be a number of lisences available. You are then basically the main wholesaler for that product in your country supplying retail stores that wish to stock the product.
Not sure if it's any different in Japan but for many products I suspect not.

So the bottom line is both Sangetsu or GoNative really don't know. For lack of proof(myself included). I'll assume the general Idea that imports benefit the importer most and hurt the domestic industry were they are competing in.

That is why nation place tariffs and hammer out trade agreements. Imports are not automatically good for both parties.

This topic is too big, I'm going to open a new thread to narrow the talk to the key element to distancing from U.S.

If there was no benefit to exporting, no one would do it. Imports benefit both parties. If exporters accept high tariffs, they accept high tariffs. They always have the option to choose not to sell.

mmm, it's a looong story, but in a nutshell,

1 The communists in schools

There is a Japanese teacher's association called 日教組 that consists of 30% of all Japanese school teachers. They are basically a group of communists that opposes any Japanese military action, or even the Japanese flag and anthem. They think Japan should abandon all military forces, and at the same time, they want the US to be out of Japan. They oppose "ALL" Japanese and American military forces.

This kind of communist groups are making it very difficult if not impossible for Japan to take any internationally responsible military action. For example, there is currently no Japanese force in Afghanistan. And if Japan can not take responsible military actions, the US CAN NOT go out of Japan.

2 The Korean lobbyists.

There are 2 major Korean political organizations in Japan. 朝鮮総連(総連) is North Korean, and 韓国民潭(民潭) is South Korean. As you probably guessed it, 総連 is the big problem now so I'll just talk about this one.

総連 is basically a branch of North Korean government in Japan. They run their own schools that teach North Korean propaganda and had a bank called 朝銀信用組合 that dealt only with north koreans. This bank, now bankrupted, was alleged to be sending money to North Korea to support its government. 総連 holds a degree of political influence to Japanese government through lobbying. For example, When 朝銀 became bankrupt, about a billion US dollars worth of tax money was thrown into it despite the alleged illegal money transfers and the fact that it does business exclusively with North Koreans. Another example is the recent Japanese government's announcement that their schools, 朝鮮学校, will be subsidized 100% by the government even though they are not legally considered schools due to it's curriculum. Having North Korean influence in the government is a serious problem especially when it comes to defense issues.

3 Bureaucratic inertia

Well, I guess we all know about this one, 天下り and all, but if I am to bring up one example, it will be cars. I own a Jeep Wrangler in the states. I payed $22k for the car, about $1000 for the sales tax and around $500 for the first year's registration. I got a license here too and it costed me about 30 bucks. In Japan though, I would need to pay freaking 4 different taxes, 消費税, 自動車税, 自動車重量税 and 自動車取得税 which probably would add up to $4000 or so. I would also need to prove that I had a space to keep the car. 車検 (vehicle inspection) every 2 to 3 years is mandatory. Getting a license costs $2000 and 60 hours of classes and driving sessions. A lot of roads are toll roads, and you have go through the gates at walking speed. They are complaining that the car sales is record low in Japan, but It seems to me they actually want to ban cars. You can't expect to expand domestic market with the policies like this.

Sure, American "people" have different opinions, and "America" wants such and such is a very simplified view. My point though was that it was American government that requested Japan to send its force to Iraq and Afghanistan. the US also supports Japan joining the UN Security Council, and It is generally understood that it wants Japan to take more military "responsibilities", for example, Alexander Arvizu, one of the high ranking American Deplomats, expressed the need for Japan to "deal with more difficult situations"should Japan join the security council, alluding to actual combat operations. 自衛隊、危険な任務にも　安保理常任理事国の条件 - 47NEWS（よんななニュース）

My position on the radar blips is in the post above.