Love everything or you're a hater?
 

In another thread I was somewhat amused to note that at least one poster on here believes I hate Japan. Amused because nothing could be further from the truth. I love living here.

It seems to me that for some on here you have to love every little aspect of everything in this country or you get labelled a hater and your reasons for living here are brought into question. It also seems for some that any criticism by a foreigner living here is only because of a lack of understanding of the culture or language and if you totally understood both of these then of course there could not be any valid criticisms whatsoever. Which is utterly ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. It's not like every Japanese person out there is it totally happy with every aspect of their lives here so why should foreigners be expected to be totally happy with every aspect?

Personally I find the idea that anyone could live anywhere and be absolutely and totally happy with every single aspect of the society they live in to be also ridiculous. I mean this forum is littered with somewhat desperate people who strongly dislike where they currently live and look to Japan as some sort of utopian land in which all their dreams will come true. None of us live in utopia, there's no such place!

So anyone somewhat reasonable has to admit that Japan is not a perfect society, not everything here is amazingly great. So why is it then if some of us wish to discuss some of those not so good (in our opinion) aspects we immediately get labelled as haters? Is there some requirement for living in Japan I didn't know about it? We have to love everything about it or we shouldn't live here? ;)

Yeah, I feel like you and I are often criticized for our honest opinions simply because we tend to say things how they really are rather than what everyone here wants to hear.

I wouldn't be here if I didn't like the place, and I can say that for anywhere else I've settled down. But it seems that if we try to even bring up one thing that is just wrong/unfair/inconvenient about Japan in any sense, we get labeled as haters. If anything we have all the more right to voice our opinion because unlike 99% of this forum we actually live here (let alone have visited). I think that you don't even have an opinion unless you either live here or have been here for an extended period, because what can you stand behind other than what you've read or seen on TV?

If I could only tell you guys some of the BS I've dealt with since I've been here, but I choose not to because as much as I deal with, there are still a lot of great things about living in Japan. But I'm not going to act like Japan is the promise land because that's ridiculous.

I've never thought that or have been given that impression.

I've been in Japan 3 times, twice for 11 days and once for 2 years. While I love to visit and would like to spend more than 11 days at a time, I know that living there for me wouldn't be wise. Even if I was fluent, the difference in culture would be hard to get accustomed to. Then there's the underlying hints of racism that exist. It's quite subtle at times but it's there. They have cool customs and traditions, while others are not so nice. One has to take the good with the bad and weigh it as a whole, while not criticizing something you're not fully knowledgeable about. While I've been there on more than one occasion, I've only scratched the very surface of what's really there, but I can tell that it's not hunky-dory for most people.

I read what people say here and take it with a grain or two of salt. While some have this googly-eyed view of Japan and would love to live there without actually having been there, others have a more realistic view of things. Age may have something to do with some of the views and opinions, but I can't generalize.

I've read some of your answers that may be construed as "hating", but never felt that was your intention or feeling. I can like the culture and hate the food. It doesn't mean I hate the place or wouldn't live there. I'd just change my gastronomical approach to living there, that's all. I'd at least try the food instead of dismissing it outright, but that one aspect wouldn't be my only way to judge and entire country.

I think I've rambled on too long on and am starting to make no sense. In conclusion, I never thought either one of you to be a "hater".... I don't like labeling people-it's not wise.

Hello Wings. How did you manage to get a visa to actually Live inJapan?

I believe you are in a AMerican University in Japan. are you studying Japanese there or other things?

what is your current impression and of course I expect you mix with many other students. will you be allowed to stay inJapan once you have finished your studying? Do you live on campus or homestaying maybe?

Mixing with Japanese residents?


Ps surely no country is Perfect. How could it be?

Native/Wings>Honestly I think some people are really proud and get defensive really easily. It is probably this type of person who is overreacting to what you guys may have written, and from what I have seen neither of you stray off the deep-end in your points of view, and the facts you mention, are in line with what I have seen or experienced or have heard of others seeing or experiencing, as I live here as well and have for quite some time now.

Bottom line, some people cannot take criticism well, even if it is not directly about them. And I understand about at some point people wanting to defend their country's honor/reputation, but there is a point where their fervor to do this blinds them to valid points people make, and just triggers the same watchdog reaction as unfounded criticism would.

Thanks for at least hearing us out. I totally get what you're saying with defending one's home country. I'm from America; I have to sit back and watch the "stupid, fat, ignorant, racist, etc. American" bashing pretty much on a daily basis on the internet. I'll admit, it does get old after a while.

However, here are two points that need to be addressed. The first is that there's a huge difference between making a basic critique and saying something completely out of line. If I (or anyone else) were to slander/use hate speech/etc. to describe an aspect of Japanese culture and depict it in a negative light but in a false manner, then I would expect many people to rise to the occasion to not only defend themselves (and their country), but to also set the record straight. But something as mundane as an opinion on food doesn't require this kind of protocol.

The other point (although not as significant) is that you're assuming that those who are defending are Japanese themselves. Most of the crap we get isn't even from Japanese, it's "weaboos" who have never even stepped foot in the country but they lay themselves on the line to defend an issue they've never experienced. I don't know if these people think that they're not going to encounter the same issues that every gaijin goes through or what, but they speak in a manner that's as if they're some type of authority on the issue and then try to belittle us for "going against the grain" or whatever, just because we admit that there are negative things about living here just like everywhere else.

Yeah I feel ya. I used to like Japan a lot, that's why I ended up on these forums. I was fascinated by both the culture and the language, not so much about the idea of living there, I don't think I'd fit in. Some people here are so fanatic they make you wanna hate the country. They watch anime on TV and think Japan is all about it.

I'll be honest, I think both of you try and "keep it real" and balanced by sometimes giving negative responses to questions. However, I don't think that is giving a balance. I don't see that many "Japan is utopia" types on here (not as much as there were a few years ago) and that is due to honest and real responses to fantastical questions.

For example, when asked to describe Japanese food, Wings chose the word "gross".

GoNative, you admit you are just there for the snow.

I think you both can be very direct, which is fine, but at the same time, I don't think anyone has said what the title of this thread is saying, so I am not sure why you are getting defensive.

I've criticized some aspects of Japan before. If I cared so much about people labeling me a "hater", I probably wouldn't have given my honest opinion in the first place.

Am I one of both...? Sorry, I'm not sure if you're alluding to me in your post.

No, I was talking about GoNative and Wings.

I'm kinda going to throw my penneth in here...I've seen both GoNative and Wings be labelled 'haters' on this forum before for simply casting a non-native view that perhaps wasn't as flattering to Japan as some of the others. More outwardly in the past (I seem to recall a 'hater get lost' type message when GoNative first joined, but I may be remembering incorrectly, perhaps it was a different user. I'm fairly sure it was the same person doing the name-calling however.), and, perhaps because of said past flaming issues, rather more mildly in recent threads. And to me it does seem oddly directed. I've said a few things quite directly that I don't like about Japan; so have others- I've yet to be called a hater. Perhaps just my style is different, or it's because i'm not IN Japan right now but still~

Anyway,IMHO this whole thing has blown up from some stupid subjective spam opinion thread- neither someone's overall opinion of Japan, how they live their life nor the worth of their input on JF should be based on a one-word answer, regardless of whether it is positive or negative. It's wholly puerile- seriously, this is what kids do in the playground "You said 'bottom'! I'm telling on you~"

Particularly not when the original response was heavily pegged with a disclaiming "but it's not just Japan."

Actually, I'm MORE surprised (and a little disappointed) you haven't been called out on your outrageously sexist comment yet, Wings. "Before you have your period"? Really? How rude.

Hey, I'll be the first to admit I can be an ass. But hating me for my character is different than hating me for my opinion. That's where respect comes from. You can not like me all you want, but talking down to me based on you thinking my opinions are invalid simply because it's not what you want to hear is what gets me is a different story.

Sorry about the remark. I just chose an inappropriate "sexist" metaphor for what has actually happened.

If you are getting wound up over the remarks of one person, then it seems that person won. I don't think anyone hates you or GoNative.

That being said, people hate people for their opinions every day. I hate racists because they hate people simply based on their skin color.

I haven't read negative post to your opinions, but I don't know if it is about not being what someone wants to hear, or that the person disagrees with your conclusions.

No I have said I originally came to Japan for the snow. My love affair with Japan didn't start out through some cartoons or some naive love of the culture from afar or because I think the girls are hot. It started out from a love of the landscapes and climate. But what are you saying MMM? Because I love snow and mountains more than cultural stuff then I somewhat deserve what I get? That doesn't fit in with your belief of why you should want to live in another country? Anyway I wouldn't have lived here for nearly 7 years and chose to have my first child here if all I loved was the snow. There's much more to it than that.

From your bio:
I love snow and skiing which is why I live in Hokkaido

I don't think I am saying anything other than no one has said "love everything about Japan, or you are a hater." You are very critical of anyone with a passion for Japan that is greater than yours, and seem to make a point of bursting every bubble possible. Being a realist is fine, but being critical for the sake of being critical may lead to some criticism, which is what we have seen.

I find this thread a bit strange, as I`ve been told by Gonative that I must think Japan is a utopia simply because I don`t go out of my way to say negative things about the country. :rolleyes:

Anyway though - I think a lot of it comes down to presentation.
You can say something negative about a certain aspect of life, a certain problem, etc - without saying something negative about the whole country. There are indeed things I don`t like, experiences I have not enjoyed, but that doesn`t lead me to apply those to all of the rest of the country and it`s people.

It`s sort of like individual vs. group. Disliking a specific person for a direct reason is one thing, saying you dislike all the people in the same race/group/nationality because of your experiences with that one person is another.
It`s also like sort of like being asked why you dislike that person, and giving the answer of "Because they`re them!" instead of actually looking at and thinking about the real reasons.

Japanese people in Japan who do not like aspects of life will complain about specific aspects of life - not "Japan sucks" or "Japanese people suck". They don`t generally pull out some comparison to how things are in some other country and tell you how much better things are done there. The reasons something in life sucks isn`t because it`s Japan - it`s because of the actual real reasons.

Not to mention that it`s almost entirely a matter of opinion. Saying "Japan is terrible in such and such way" is quite different from "I don`t like how such and such is done in Japan".

Sometimes, actually understanding the reasons will bring more sense to the whole situation, if not alleviate the problem altogether. And there is a level of understanding of culture and language that is required to do this.

Why is pointing out that things have reasons that are not always obvious considered worshiping the country? Why is offering experiences that aren`t riddled with the countless rumors of horrific racism considered thinking the country a utopia? I have also been told that I was a Japanophile for pointing out that the same issues happen in other countries, in exactly the same way, so it wasn`t a Japan issue - but somehow to the complainer it was only a negative when applied to Japan.
One of these that stood out in my mind was when I answered factually why something was the way it was (something I personally didn`t like) - and I was told that I was delusional about Japan being a great place. It was a surprise as none of the information I presented was in favor of the issue - but then I realized... It wasn`t negative either! There is a strong expectation that if you actually live in Japan you will have tons of negative things to say about it. And if you don`t, you`re either lying about being in Japan or some weird Japan worshiper.

I generally answer with positive information after negative information has already been offered. Usually it`s either the OP says that they heard Japan was terrible in such and such way, or they ask a question and someone else jumps up to the plate and tells them that Japan sucks in some way (or entirely).
I see a LOT more people with incredibly negative thoughts about Japan than people who think it is a utopia. Especially in person - living in Japan I regularly encounter foreigners who are told that Japan sucks in some way and who internalize that without ever actually forming their own opinion based on personal experience. They look for examples of what they`ve been told - and if the information pouring in is negative, everywhere negativity is seen.

A simple and true example - I`ve met people who have been told that the reason Japanese people will bow instead of shake hands with them is because they`re afraid of contracting gaijin germs. Despite the fact that bowing is the norm they will call it racist as they have been told (by other foreigners "in the know") that it is a racist gesture. It`s entirely their right to dislike the lack of hand shakes - but it`s an odd leap to consider it a terrible flaw of society and that people who do it suck. Pointing out that people usually bow instead of shake hands largely eliminated the daily feelings of discrimination, and somehow magically made it possible for them to notice that it wasn`t just them.

The majority of complaints about life in Japan aren`t so simple, but there tends to be a connecting thread between them of limited personal experience and language/cultural misunderstandings - with a dash of negative preconceptions. At the very least it helps to shift through any misunderstandings, misconceptions, etc to get to the actual opinion underneath.

It's actually not just one person though. Over the course of my time here I've accrued quite the list of debates/arguments that have actually just been based on my opinions rather than definitive statements.

As far as your racism example, it's my fault for not being specific. I often generalize based on the assumption we're talking in an intellectual medium. Something like racism doesn't even come to mind to me because it's a given to not agree with something like that. But in regards to more subjective topics, my first post is more applicable.

That's not entirely true Nyororin. It's just that almost every time I have ever commented on something I don't like here you have always seemed to need to defend Japan. It felt like you were always trying to invalidate my views only because in your eyes I didn't understand enough about things to make the conclusions I did. That may not be the case, it's just how it felt. It's as though you believe that every criticism is purely because we just don't understand enough about being Japanese. And that if we could just see it from their point of view then we wouldn't have any issues whatsoever with living here.
I've definitely been told on more than one occassion on here that because I'm not totally fluent in the language I shouldn't comment on anything because I just can't possibly understand enough to make informed comments. To me though I actually don't need to totally understand the reasons behind why things are done the way they are here. If I don't like them well I don't like them. Understanding the reasons why they are done that way makes no difference, I still don't like them!
I of course accept things are done in different ways here due to cultural differences but that doesn't mean I like them. A forum like this allows me to get out some of the frustrations I find with living here. But it appears that just brings down a whole lot of criticism and questioning why you live here and attempts to discredit any views you have because you lack the cultural or language understanding to have such views.
This comes back to why I started this thread. It appears for many on this forum you either have to love every aspect of your life here (or at least only ever talk about the good aspects) or you're labelled as someone who hates Japan and the Japanese.

Or maybe if I said I love Japan because of the fashion, the manga, the anime, the technology, the cute girls, the cosplay, the absolutely completely and utterly amazing culture it would all be ok? Loving a place just for the landscapes and climate is just too weird huh? :mtongue:

Very few debates that happen on JF are over facts. They are over experiences and opinions.

I don't appreciate the notion that we are not speaking in an intellectual medium, or that you are and I am not. My point is, people argue over opinions here. Some people share them in ways that incite a stronger response than others. I would say your posts do tend to incite spirited responses. Either accept that, or don't be as incendiary with what you say.

Haters? You must be joking. I found both of you were rather fond of Japan. But you guy's do a lot of dude talks which is fine with me, but may be offensive to some people. And the period and stuff? Dude that's not cool you know that. We have different kinds of people from Japanese teenage girls to a British lady who is in her 70's.

When Nyororin talks, I often find there is nothing else I can add. She does understand Japanese culture very well and she speaks better English than I (duh), so there isn't much I can contribute.

GoNative is more pragmatic. You probably understand many pragmatic points about Japan. But I don't think you are THAT interested in the Japanese culture itself. Not as much as Nyyororin anyways. WingsToDiscovery seems to be in a culture shock right now.

Calling Japanese food "gross" is fine. I KNOW many English speaking people think that way and it's typical. You know what though? I'll be completely honest with you. Many Japanese people will think you are kind of culturally lower than them. They'll think you are immature, but they just won't say it in your face because that's just rude and they know you are from a different culture so they'll give you a break. Culinary art is really "art" in Japan, and you are rather barbaric in the light of Japanese culture at least when food is concerned.

There are many points I like about the culture among the English speaking countries though. I think English speaking people put up more mature, constructive arguments in general compared to Japanese people who often avoid an argument altogether.

I do realise that where I live is rather unique in Japan and that I don't really experience Japan in the same way many do who say have lived in the big cities like Tokyo or Osaka. I mostly interact with other foreigners and with Japanese people who have spent varying amounts of time living overseas and generally speak good to excellent english. In the company I work at for instance we have 4 Australians (one who is a Chinese Australian and speaks english and Chinese) , 2 New Zealanders (one who is Taiwanese decent who speaks english, Japanese and Chinese), 2 Frenchman (one who speaks Japanase, English and Chinese as well) and 4 Japanese (3 of whom have spent tiime overseas and speak excellent English). The ski village itself has people working here from all over the world. The one thing most of us have in common though is a love of snow sports. Regardless of where we are from we all come together on that!
All this has meant I have mostly been able to continue living a fairly western lifestyle within a Japanese setting rather than living a Japanese lifestyle as a westener. It's a little bit like say a Chinatown in a major western city. This multicultural sort of environment is something I really enjoy and am used to from where I grew up.

Love and hate what you want, those who judge are not wort the concern.

I agree with your entire post but wanted to re-iterate what you're saying at the end. It's the dxmn emotions that always get the better of us!

John Braden said: "I don't like labeling people-it's not wise."

I've only seen a few of your posts but enjoy reading them and the labeling of people seems to be a serious issue here. There are elitists here that feel they have more of a right to enjoy a specific culture than others and will list reasons why they feel they are justified. TO THEM: If you think someone who likes Japan is a "weeaboo" then live with it, kind of chuckle to yourself, get OVER yourself, and move on. They enjoy something that is not harmful to anyone.

MMM said: "Very few debates that happen on JF are over facts. They are over experiences and opinions."

Nicely said in a non-emotional and non-provoking way.
__________________________________________________

There are racists everywhere...to say you have friends who laugh at certain other people means absolutely nothing. We ALL have seen or known friends and/or acquaintances that make fun of, or laugh at, various groups of people.

Maybe you need to find better friends who aren't so inclined to judge.

Remember: How you treat the 1 shows how you regard the 99. In the end we are ALL a "one". If someone laughs at a person because they are poor, "ugly", "stupid", or an "outsider" if things change in your life you could find yourself in that poor, "ugly", "stupid" or "outsider" person's shoes being judged by the "friends" you thought you had.

-

Thesaurus all over my head.

That's my 2cent.

Unless you speak for the person who initially posed the question is it your right to tell us it was rhetorical i.e. that nobody should have answered it?

Facts are good and opinions are interesting though some people misconstrue opinions and feelings for facts. Speaking of facts where are your facts on how someone who hates doesn't want to live anymore? Or is this more of a feeling you get when you imagine how someone would feel who is a constant hater? You ask what their purpose is so I am assuming you aren't a perpetual hater but maybe their purpose is to hate, to play devil's advocate, or just to not "get your hopes up" because as soon as you do you're let down.

Speaking of totally derailing something into an opinion...you took someone's question, berated everyone for answering a rhetorical question, posted your feelings on how a hater would feel, and then berated people for speaking about opinions rather than sticking to facts.

Your opinion is to speak only on facts and logical calculations because you believe that it is a factual statement that facts and logical calculations are the "right" way to communicate. However, I think it's good to talk about opinions, experiences, people's assumptions, and beliefs but just as long as we realize that they are in fact these and not something else.

I like seeing the other side of things. It is not perfect but nothing is. You do seem to have many problems with living there though. But even if you judge it harshly I know that there is some truth behind it that I may not have known about before.

For me my relationship with Japan is similar to my relationship with my wife. I love them both dearly but both have many little things that can be annoying as hell. And like with a marriage little things over time can become more and more annoying. They are little but you need to talk about them. Doesn't mean you can always resolve these annoyances but talking about them helps. ;)

YOu Know GN--I think that says it all really---------- not only about Japan but everywhere in the world. we human beings are simply that--------we have feeling, emotions, needs,None of us are perfect-- thank heaven. How boring that would be.


If one is fortunate enough to live in an area where you are fulfilled that is an enormous bonus. Nobody should be judging you for loving where you are and what you do.

Not many of us have that so its great that You do.


even in our own country our own street-- there are differences-- we have minds of our own-- one mans meat--another's poison etc.


Iknow that I am far from perfect-- that our country also-- many things that

are not good-- but on the other hand I wish to remain here for the rest of my life. If there were a magic carpet that could whizz me to Japan and other countries and with hardly any cost-- I would like to do that-- but that will never happen fo rme LOL.


Our japanese friend adores this country-- UK--its people etc-- she says are so kind-- and you know I believe that most people inside their own hearts are also kind and generous. She will not be allowed to remain here.

humans are complex creatures. the same as countries.

You are interpreting someone's question based on your personal paradigm on life as being the paradigm that everyone sees through and then assuming that this interpretation is fact. It might be, it might be just your interpretation, but the very fact you said "I believe" now shows this is a feeling and NOT empirical data.


"It's not a feeling, it's knowledge I've gained after various discussions on similar concepts. ... which is the reason I think there is no such thing as a complete hater."
I see no factual statements here. I guess someone reading your statements is just supposed to assume that you, as well as the people you have had 'various discussions' with, are experts on the subject. This issue has nothing to do with whether or not there can be someone who loves everything or hates everything but that you are taking your personal belief, assuming it is true (regardless of how obvious it may seem to be true), and then passing it off as true while also asking people to communicate using empirical data. I see no empirical data.

A)
I rest my case on how you've wrongly accused me, but I won't blame you; my post was quite lengthy, after all. I agree with you that sharing opinions, experiences, etc can be good, but as you have already justified for me, "as long as we realize that they are in fact these". That in itself is a fact.
B)
Stick to facts and logical calculations, when addressing the masses, who aren't your personal penpal. No matter how you relay that information, facts are empirical and can't be subjective.

Paragraph A) seems to imply that opinions and experiences can be viewed as a "fact" but then this would contradict your statement in paragraph B) that facts are empirical and can’t be subjective. If you are wondering how? Opinions and experiences are subjective.

Speaking on giving reading advice perhaps it's good to get into re-reading your previous posts. Please don't think it's a snide remark, said condescendingly, or in a berating type of manner...I am just kind hearted and caring like you were being when you said you don't blame me for having trouble understanding your previous post because of the length! It was such a long post full of so many words!

so much of this is way above my head.

I believe we were asked if we loved or hated Japan-- or certain aspects of JAPAN.

As I have never been there I cannot say.

I actually started the thread because I was labelled a 'hater' of Japan due to some of my criticisms I've made about the country. I was questioning why it seems that any criticism automatically seems to get you labelled as such. It appeared to me that unless you confess undying love of everything Japanese you run the risk of being labelled a hater on this forum. Something I clearly believe is ridiculous.

HI GN.

I would think that could be said about every country-- town --person etc. Nobody or nothing is Perfect.

Our country definitely is NOT. I am not. There are many things I believe is wrong with our country and our present government with its new crazy money saving schemes.


If we think that all is perfect then we are wearing those rose coloured spectacles.

I guess its like My saying something derogotory about my child but heaven help anyone ELSE that says the same thing.

we rush to protect our own-- thats the crux I believe.


I would hope that with communication as there is these days-- that we could learn to understand one another better

my reading is that it is a questionabout loving or hating things Japanese.

We are all capable of loving and hating many things in life.

Really I think it was because someone seems to have labelled GN as a japanese hater because of some remarks or criticisms he has apparently made.

I just take his word for that. It is like protecting our OWN really we jump in to defend something we love if somebody else seems to criticise it-- whatever it may be.

I cannot follow your discussions Coolnard with others-- its way beyond my simple brain.