The Iranian leader brags about it all the time, race has nothing to do with it.

As to the constant attacks on isreal. Hezbollah and Hamas..both puppets of outside influence from other arab countries..Mostly Iran. But you are correct, there have been no major attacks from an all out invasion force no, because they believe Isreal has nukes....that's the whole point. The Nuke threat holds them at bay.

Afganistan was self defense from a direct assault from a group of nutjobs backed and protected by The Taliban who were in charge of Afganistan at the time.

again sorta not
 

Ryzorian: quote

"Afghanistan was self defense from a direct assault from a group of nutjobs backed and protected by The Taliban who were in charge of Afganistan at the time."
--------------
None of 19 hijackers on Sept. 11 who crashed jets into the WTC or Pentagon or PA were citizens of Afghanistan, dude? The hijackers were from Saudi Arabia (fifteen hijackers), United Arab Emirates (two hijackers), Lebanon (one hijacker) and Egypt (one hijacker) and belonged to al-Qaeda.
Even al-Qaeda leader, Osama bin Laden is a Saudi Arabian citizen.
-------------
Ryzorian: quote
" Hezbollah and Hamas..both puppets of outside influence,..."
-------------
Hamas was created by Israel in 1967' as a counter weight to the PLO. And Hamas spiritual leader and co founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin ( Muslim Brotherhood ) was released from prison by the israelis. Whatever support it gets from outside is besides the point since Hamas was a creation of Israel.

Al-qaeda was based in Afganistan. Bin Laden was hideing in Afganistan, protected by the Taliban. Saudia Arbia has a large population of nutjobs that's true..based on Wahibbi, a harsh exstreamist version of Islam. However, it's not on the radar.........yet.

Hamas was not created by Isreal, that's like saying Jews created Hitler and the Nazi's. They release prsioners all the time in the hope it will bring peace..it never does.

Attachment 11262

a pitch that is not in the strike zone

again sorta not
 

Ryzorian: quote

"Al-qaeda was based in Afganistan,.."
-------------------
al-Qaeda has bases in a half dozen or more countries dude? From Somalia,Yemen Pakistan etc. the majority of it's funding from Saudi Arabia.

The origins of al-Qaeda as a network inspiring terrorism around the world and training operatives can be traced to the Soviet War in Afghanistan (Dec 1979—Feb 1989)
The U.S. channeled funds through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the Afghan mujahideen fighting the Soviet occupation in a CIA program called Operation Cyclone.

Translation:
al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden were created ,armed and trained, and on the payroll of Saudi Arabia and the US.
-------------------

Ryzorian: quote

"Hamas was not created by Isreal, that's like saying Jews created Hitler and the Nazi's,.."
-----------------
The US Ambassador to Israel since 2002 has gone on the public record and has more experience in Middle East affairs than you dude,
*sorry to pop your'e bubble.

According to the Dec. 21 ( 2002 ) Israeli daily Ha'aretz, US Ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer made these extraordinary statements at a seminar on religion and politics


Israeli Roots of Hamas are being exposed
Centre for Research on Globalisation 18/18/02: Dean Andromidas

Speaking in Jerusalem Dec. 20, U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer made the connection between the growth of the Islamic fundamentalist groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and and Israel's promotion of the Islamic movement ( Hamas ) as a counter to the Palestinian nationalist movement.

The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend This statement is extraordinary given the fact that Kurtzer is a very senior diplomat, having held the post of Ambassador to Egypt just prior to going on to Tel Aviv. He is also an Orthodox Jew who is not shy of criticizing the extreme anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic views held by certain Arab circles. But Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon rarely grants the United States' highest representative in Israel an official audience.
-----------------------------
And another source dude,

Hamas history tied to Israel

By Richard Sale
UPI Terrorism Correspondent
06/18/02 "UPI"
Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel.

According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."

Copyright © 2001-2004 United Press International

fluffy0000 Ryzorian

Can you two please take your off topic crap elsewhere?!?!

Preferably OFF line.:mad:

again sorta not
 

dude , cut back on the ED medication and take a few deep breaths*

"are there some off topic posts in this thread? yes. "

".. but there also some real gems in here!"

my apologies for ruining your'e "internets' enjoyment.

I appreciate the amount of information being shared, but I'd have to agree... although, initially, it may have been relative to the point, it has been kind of straying from the topic.




Siokan, sorry, what is that picture displaying and what are you pointing out, exactly? I would assume it was the aftermath of the South's counter-battery fire on the North?

Military results of South Korea.

A poor response of Korean Force and the flaw of arms are exposed.
It is mysterious why to have made the flaw of Korean Force public.

Are you familiar with the details of tactical battery fire or is it addressed in any of your sources? It was reported that civilians were present within close proximity to the NK artillery guns. Has it been determined what the purpose of the structures to the south were?


I don't know what the ROE or standard artillery tactics include, but it seems clear that the majority of the counter-battery shells were overshot to the north.

With that established, I have a theory...
Artillery can be fired in a chain of subsequent adjustments... meaning, they will initiate their fire with estimated calculations, and, in accordance with every impact, continue to correct it closer to the target until they're more effective. Notice that some of the rounds are considerably close to the target. It would make a lot of sense if the rounds began far north and were corrected to land southward, just before the emplacements. If it was believed the structures to the south contained any kind of civilian entity, it would be logical to begin estimated fire to the far north. However, that would also indicate a certain lack of confidence in accuracy.


Overall, it may be of strategic importance to make some presence rather than none at all. That could justify firing rounds, even if they did not hit.


I wouldn't say it was an absolute display of error. There's simply not enough information (that I see) to completely support that conclusion. But it is an interesting picture nontheless.

The US Paladin system use GPS targeting and can send a round down an enemy artillery barrel in seconds. The South Korean's use older modle US 155's but they are pretty acurate as well.

Yeah. I'm not well informed on most of the particular systems' capabilities. I could be completely wrong.

Is there any information on the event that would invalidate my theory? Until any solid information is provided, I'm stuck with speculation... and I'm a bit intrigued.

I did a light search on the (M114) 155mm howitzer. It seems the maximum range for the model the ROK may be using is approximately 14,600 meters (16,000 yd). The Yeonpyeong island is 11 km from the DPRK mainland. That leaves the artillery emplacements to be within 3000 meters from the coast in order to be effectively engaged by the south; accuracy beyond that begins to be significantly hindered -- without (or possibly even with) compensation. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

What's left is to know where and how far the emplacements were.

Yes, the old 155's did have something of a range issue. That was one primary reason the MRLS system was developed, because the 155 didn't have the range to compete with the Russian guns dureing the Cold war. The MRLS system has a longer range with a larger payload.

The Paladin system..wich is basically a 155 with much more advance targeting and propellent is interconnected to the "whole battlefield " thing the US works on...It's basically a system designed to connect all combat units, from airforce planes , naval ships, artillery and tanks via a network of computers. All these systems remain in contact with each other and relay information reguarding battlefield conditions and enemy postions to each other in real time.

If a Palidin was underattack, then all the planes, tanks and ships close enough to respond would know who was under attack and from where. Theoretically anyhow. Like all systems, how they work in the lab, isn't how they work in the field.

Still, if the US really wanted to, they could level most of North korea's artillery in a few hours. The real question would be, how much damage could those batteries do in those few hours and would the South be willing to take that as "exceptable losses".

At the cost of destroying Uijeongbu, Pyeongtaek, and Yongsan American garrisons in 3 hours.

There would never be a war. North Korea is already doing a good job by dismantling the Gukbangbu (South Korean Ministry of Defense) from the inside.

You don't really need a war to collapse a country.

Don't forget. According to now-deceased Hwang Jang-yeop (North Korean minister who defected to the South in the 1990s) mentioned that there are approximately 10,000 North Korean spies infiltrated in the South Korean government, even today. After this bombardment, I can't but to conform this fact as "almost true".

Let me tell you this as a South Korean: having a full-fledge war against North Korea is impossible.

North Korea is a starveing trash heap with a wacko in charge. They can't Compete with South Korea's economy and you know it Komitsuki. Even if they did cause the "collapse" of the South and the wacko in charge took over. You would simply have twice as many starveing people in twice as big a trash heap.

I agree that war won't happen because The US has a weak leader and the South has it's capitol being held hostage. However, never doubt that if the US population was pissed off enough, the North would cease to exist.

Our military actually had better military power than right now. That is when we had a PRO-NORTH president. No civilians had died directly by North Korean soldiers within the South Korean soil at that time.

One thing for sure. North Korea already brought down the South Korean military heirarchy few weeks ago.

We might see our president getting impeached in 4 months.

Lesson: Never have a pro-American president having power in Seoul.

"PRO-NORTH" or "North-tolerant"?

Sorry if it should already be clear, but are you suggesting that the South President's support of U.S. relations being the possible cause for the attacks from the North is something he should be condemned for?

It would seem like a negative sentiment, to me; cowardice. The South should have the freedom to associate themselves with any free country without fear of the North killing civilians.

... or is there more depth to that argument?

Ex-pres Roh was PRO-NORTH.

How I see it in South Korea. Yes. When this president came into power few years ago, he publically said that "I hate the North". First leader in 18 years to say so.

The best way to maintain South Korea is to be pro-USA as well as being pro-North at the same time. That "rat" destoryed what South Korea represented the best.

I think I better throw this fact in here for good measure.

Roh lost the election in which this current government took power.

He took a conciliatory approach to relations with North Korea and relations between Japan and the US soured while he was in charge.... But it is a stretch to call him pro-NK.

No South Korean president and very few South Koreans for that matter would like to see the Northern regime come to power in the South which is what it means to be pro-North.

Many of course would like to see a peaceful reunion.

Just to let you know, the South Korean public doesn't know the difference between pro-North and North-tolerant. Vis-a-vis to this situation, North-tolerant will be treated as pro-North.

But still, many South Koreans now prefer the previous pro-North government from how I see it. Ever since this:

1. Dysfunctional military hierarchy
2. the general collapse of the National Assembly
3. The collapse of the Supreme Prosecutors (Japanese equivalent would be 検察官)
4. Few provincial government leaders attacking the president (this time it's worse)
5. NIS (South Korean equivalent of CIA) under crisis
6. Mislead economical crisis
7. Collapse of the agricultural sector after 2 years of policies

If you think NK is screwed up towards SK. Well, think again. South Korean domestic politics project more influence towards the US foreign policies and the Blue House's decision-making than NK itself.

Lesson: Never trust the South Korean, Western, and Japanese media. You'll get more misinformation about South Korea regarding North's actions.

I don't care if you say bad things about the North. But you'll misjudge everything about the North and South eventually if you have this hawk-ish attitude.

That's true. I would also like to see a peaceful reunion -- or 'resolution', rather -- if it were possible.

Komitsuki, you mentioned that you are South Korean, am I correct? What do South Koreans mean when they suggest a reunion? On what terms would they have it? I have always suspected it as being somewhat of a misnomer.


The U.S. wouldn't bombard the South simply for not being Pro-American. At least, not from a martial standpoint. Your distrust of the media and goverment is relatable.

However...

When we are referring to North Korea, we may essentially be referring to Kim Jong Il or the leadership of their regime. After all, Kim Jong Il is today's North Korea. Does taking a Pro-North approach, to some degree, equate to supporting Kim Jong Il? Is it not safe to assume that everyone disagrees with Kim Jong Il's methods?

Don't misunderstand, I'm not standing up for the President, particularly. He may be as bad as you express of him to be. But that's not really my point. The President can be any cold-hearted dog, but I mean to exhibit the principle of the nation, in general. If the South truly wanted to be an independant entity (reunited or not) shouldn't the freedom to choose be valued? Or is there an implied willingness to fall under the North's control?


I'm sorry for the questions. I'm really trying to understand the argument.

You can't trust anything coming from the mouth of a North Korean stooge.

I'm telling you that there is a difference between the two in the ENGLISH language which you are using at the moment and you would do well to use the appropriate term here.

When you say pro-North... then from a native English speaking standpoint you give off the wrong impression.

Unless you are actually speaking of the desire to have the North Korean regime rule over the whole of the Korean peninsula and approve of the North's actions.

In fact I would say that this is an insult to president Roh and his family as there is no indication whatsoever that he was pro-North. All he was was conciliatory towards the North or "North tolerant" as someone else put it.

You can't trust anything coming from the mouth of an ex American soldier. They couldn't critically think the North Korean situation that most South Koreans understand.

And I'm a South Korean liberal. Being liberal in South Korea usually means pro-North.

There's no difference between pro-North and North-tolerant in South Korea. This is all thanks to the pro-American military dictatorships twice in the South Korean history.

This will help you: think like a South Korean.

To be honest I don't think South Koreans are that stupid. And even if the majority of them are.. why would I stoop to that level of stupidity?

The discussion of International relations is best done when language is used rationally and rhetoric is kept to a minimum (which is what I suspect the lack of distinction, if it exists in the mainstream, may be a result of rather than the fact that Koreans don't actually have the intelligence to tell the difference).

To say there is no difference in South Korea doesn't mean that there isn't a difference. It just means you're ignoring it.

Another example of such stupidity would be not knowing the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. Not knowing the difference between a mosque and a cultural centre. Not knowing the difference between being AT ground zero to being TWO BLOCKS away from ground zero.

It's not stupidity but good guess. South Korea still has this 1960s Cold War era political mentality to today. Nothing really changed except for the attitudes.

Muslim's build mosques at cites where great victories for Islam happened, It's one of the teneants, they have to or they go to hell. Yes, they view killing 3000 innocents a great victory for Islam, Allah don't care how people convert, or what means you utilized to get them to convert, so long as they do. Islam Means "to submit", litterally.

Cordoba..what they want to call the site in New York, is named after the Cordoba mosque in Spain..the site of a creat muslim victory where they built a mosque on top of a cathedral.

As to Korea, very few South Koreans are for the North as it is now. They may pity the people of the North, Kim il's slaves, who he brutalizes on a whim. However, they have no wish to rejoin North Korea as long as the communists under Wackadoo Kim run it. In fact they may never want to, the North is so poorly maintained it would take a Devine provodence to become functional again.

again sorta wrong
 

Ryzorian , where did you get info on Paladin? There is no US Army Paladin system? GPS use is part of the Paladin M109A6 155mm howitzer only in those M109A6's outfitted ,modified to use - M982 Excalibur - precise GPS-guided munition.
Paladin M109A6 was produced from 1994-1999' the M982 Excalibur GPS guided munition round was not produced until 2007'.

The South Korean K9 based on the US Army M109 is not as accurate as a US Army M109A6 using Excalibur GPS guided munition. The South Korean K9 is a Samsung (SSA) product / equal to a US M109A2 with 'some' improvements. The South Koreans do'nt have GPS guided munition.

But that is only half the story, isn't it?

It is also the location of the fall of Muslim Cordoba.

Well, there's no use when our country's military structure is 50% FUBAR.

There is a bigger danger than North Korea: our corrupted leaders in Seoul who will exploit series of unfortunate opportunities.

Oh my.. You even think it's a tenant and are comparing it to an example that bears very little resemblance.

You see my point now komitsuki? Accurate language, precise definitions are important

Perhaps you should see the South Korean politics in the South Korean point of view. Not in a first world Western point of view.

Ronin; it is a tenant. You have any idea what fatwa's are? Some Imam issues this and it becomes a tenant of the faith nearly as important as the Quran. It's just the way it is..Shiria doesn't negotiate and it wont compramise.

MMM; The Muslims ended up being driven back in Spain by El Cid, after the Muslims had intially invaded. Ironically he used the help of Spainish muslims to drive the rest out. The Muslim invasions of Europe happened before the Crusades by the way, the Crusades happened as a response. Plus, the muslim invasions of Europe continued well into the middle ages, several hundred years after the last crusader had left the holy land. This isn't a new thing here, islam has been wageing their jihad for over 1400 years, it has never stopped.

Fluffy; The new Paladin system is similer in function to how the German artillery works. I believe all of Nato is working on GPS type artillery with GPS rounds.

You have created a paradigm where no one is allowed to have any opinion unless it is exactly the same as yours. And in S. Korea, yours would be the minority opinion.

I know what Fatwa is.

I also know that Islam has no central authority. So an Imam can command many followers... but what he says is as relevant to making authorised statements about Islam as Ted Haggard is to the Christian faith.

I hope you're not implying that SK isn't first world...

South Korea in the 1950s used to have the same level of economy and social progress as in Afghanistan in the 2000. Many South Koreans right now still don't consider their own country a First World (Seonjinguk) technically.

Our president keep saying "Seonjinguk, Seonjinguk, Seonjinguk" many times, now it sounds like a Nazi era mantra.

I presonally think the First, Second, Third world countries distinction is a Cold War relic insignificant to the 21st century.

again sorta not
 

Ryzorian
.., the Paladin is not new?.., the US Army Paladin M109A6 was produced from 1994-1999' is based on M109 which is over 50yrs old and ceased production with the exception of 30 units 2000'-2002'.
There is no US Army Paladin system 'new' or otherwise.

Nato is not working on a 'GPS' precision munitions because both US and these Five countries already have a 'GPS' precision munitions - M982 Excalibur ( Raytheon Missile Systems and BAE Systems Bofors ) first produced in 2007'.

Sweden
Australia—pending FMS request
Canada
United States
Norway

This is getting rather silly. Of course S. Korea is a First World Country. They import and export, have a strong economy.

If you think that designation is "Nazi era" then that is fine, but it doesn't help fuel the conversation. S. Koreans are not eaten by animals and live in electricity-free huts. It's OK that S. Korea is First World.

You're the one who used the term first!
Now you're saying it's insignificant!