Im not going to reply mate sorry..any reply to that sentance would be confrontational...thats not what i was going for...i only gave opinions.

mine!

If you wish to go that way ill make it easy.

Ive got no friends.

minor correction
 

Ronin pointed out the existance of servants / slaves / droids onboard the Death Star One.
As for "relatively free" cooks and other so-called civil personnel of a military base (vehicle).
They are not innocent people, walking on street of peaceful city. Each so-called *civilian* i.e. cook, electrician, technician of life-support system etc must sign a special contract.
The matter of contract is "to serve a certain system of a military facility under certain conditions". In other words, they are still combatants, not innocent civilians.

forgive my interference shouldn't star wars be separate from the actual world war?


One is fantasy-- the other-- Was a "Happening."

ronin4hire You are SOOOOOOO rude.


Usually we have to keep subjects relevant to the title.

Its upsetting to see fantasy brought into the real facts of what happened.

we can all fantasise for ever.

when I asked about AMERICA-- if civilians had been bombed? I was told it was not suitable for THIS thread-- Yet STAR WARS is OKAY!!!

interference
 

You are absolutely right.

But some members of discussion turned the conversation from reality to fantasy. Well, no problem, we do have counter-arguments.

Look at the f*cking title of the thread FFS.

I can't see it f...king. I just see the title. :eek:

I don't disagree with your point but I think it's safe to say that there was noone aboard the Death Star apart from military personnel and droids. And that the only other people that might have been on board DS2 were slaves.

I just thought of another point too. Why would the Empire employ contractors to work on such a top secret project? The first star wars movie was all about retrieving and delivering the original's plans to the rebel alliance.

It is also claimed that many Bothan spies died trying to retrieve plans for the second.

You're right though.. the fact that it was a weapon of mass destruction makes anyone that is working for it acceptable collateral.

Wmd
 

Simple logic. I totally agree. And all those talks about "dozen thousands of innocent civilians onboard DS-1" are merely laughable.:)

yes so why isn't star wars separate-?
Anyway boys have fun and enjoy your games.

You didn't like the discussion of Star Wars on your WWII thread, so I removed all mention of Star Wars from that thread and branched it here.

I can understand not wanting to go off topic, but now it sounds like you are trying to censor speech.

I think the idea that attack is justified and another is not is fascinating, and for the purposes of this topic it doesn't matter that one is real and the other is fantasy. The people here discussing it probably have encyclopedic knowledge of both, and in no way is it being disrespectful of the dead.

Are slaves acceptable collateral damage?

Well not automatically.

But I'd say given the circumstances... yes.

We know that military bases, like anything else, can inspire savvy businesspeople and many private businesses crop up near military bases. In Okinawa I hear there are many shops, bars and restaurants with US military men as intended customers.

These are off-base, but near base. Do those that choose to live and work near military bases take on any responsibility in case the base is attacked?

In other words, if you choose to live or work near a military target, are you responsible or partially at fault if you are hurt or killed if the base is attacked?

Star Wars has alot to do with WW2, the whole theme is actually built around the idea of a dictator being elected. The people in the empire "ELECTED" Palpatine as thier leader, so really, all of them were guilty in that sense. Just like the Germans elected Hitler. Point of fact, Lucas himself has mentioned that the Star Wars films were supposed to show the similarities to Nazi Germany.

Storm Troopers, who are in fact Clone Troopers, believed the alliance were rebels who betrayed the Republic. That it was they who were evil and causeing unneeded death and destruction.

Ronin, your suggestion of the death stars being destroyed and the empire weakened and trying to surrender while the alliance decided to strike anyway doesn't work. Japan had 6 million troops on mainland China who had never crossed swords with the US, They were decidedly apposed to surrender. Not only that, Japan kept trying to 'surrender' with conditions. The US said Unconditional was the only surrender they would acept and until the bombs, Japan wasn't willing to do that.

Now I suppose you could say the US, being unable to accept anything but unconditional surrender, were being hard headed. But again, that goes back to the concept of Total War brought about dureing the Civil War. The US, when it's really angery, doesn't allow conditional surrender.

Again, "Geneva Conventions" are just words on paper men write to feel good about themselves when war itself is about killing and destroying. You'll also notice that the nations who "wrote it" are the westernized ones with the most powerful militaries.

Hell, the US was born breaking military law, that "indian style" of warfare was considered low brow and criminal by the British regulars who had a very distinct formulated battle system. However, countries with out that type of military can't fight that way because they dont have the resources. On the other hand, until you defeat who ever is the big heavy of the day, useing thier battle tactics, you'll never be recognized nationally.

The Jihadi's use the only methods they can to fight us, but really it doesn't do much damage, mostly it amuses us for a time, then we find something else shiny to play with. The only way they will recieve true recognition is if they beat us on the battle field useing our tactics and weapons, wich isn't likely going to happen.

It's why the battle of Cowpens was so important dureing the American revolution, it showed France we could go toe to toe with Britain, in the Nepoleaonic style and win. Thus allowing France to back our horse in the race.

Depends on the circumstances I guess.

What does this have to do with Star Wars?

You're not suggesting that their were businesspeople aboard the death star are you? I thought we'd covered that already.

I understand "Might makes right".

It's not an acceptable philosophy.

This is about Star Wars AND WWII.

It may have been covered in what you say is canon, but I am wondering what a million or so military men are expected to do for years at a time to keep themselves entertained.

Who said they were stationed there years at a time?

You're just making shit up now.

Sailors in modern navies do 3-6 month tours and then return home for a month or two etc. I'd say being stationed aboard the DS would simply be rotating a few battalions, work crews and squadrons in and out.

The DS had 100,000 storm troopers, that's more than a few battalions. It held a million plus personel and was the size of a small moon. It was basically a major military base, and military bases have large civilian populations that hang around them because troops on base have lots of two things....spare time..and money.

I'll give you a real time example. When I was sent to Germany dureing Desert Storm, My battallion alone pumped 5 million into the local economy in 6 months. Germany use to have over 300,000 American troops stationed there. I'm sure everyone remembers all the demonstrations about "Yankee go home". What people fail to remember is many of those protests near the end were about "Yankee stay here" cause those small towns around the bases noticed how much money they were looseing as fewer and fewer Americans were stationed there.

That doesn't change the fact the DS was a legit target, I wont deny that. But it wasn't just stacked wall to wall with battle hardened nutjobs either. Those civilians provided essential R and R and other goods and services to the troops there and made them as much a legit target as the DS was.

That's the whole issue. Civilians in a war are resources for the nation at war and thus become 'legit" war targets becuase of what they provide for the nation dureing war time...wich is EVERYTHING. It takes Civilians to keep a national army working.

You're making it all up.

I'm thinking that they rotated people in an out for half year or even full year tours.

Like I said... both DS were pretty much top secret projects.

The DS wouldn't have just been any base. It would have been like the Area 51 of the Empire.

The thing about secrets is that the more people who know about it, the less it's a secret. You understand how many people it would take to build something like that? Even with droids doing some of the heavy work, you would still have large numbers of civilian contractors because there weren't that many droids around then, Palpatine had a large number of them decommissioned after the "Clone wars".

The only reason no one "knew" anything about it was due to the Dark side clouding everything, like a veil. The monster could be in plain sight, but the veil makes people fail to see what is really there..

Besides, the empire had a massive fleet of Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers, nobody was hideing those in some "emperial" area 51, and they could destroy planets as well. The DS's big asset was One Shot, One kill. Though I think the money spent would have been better placed on more Star Destroyers, because they can get the job done and you can show more imperial influence via ports of call. Plus the DS was too much of the "eggs all in one basket" type of thing.

Another thing people miss is that not everyone thought the "empire" was a bad thing, or even the bad guy. Billions of folks lived very well within the empire, same as Roman citizens did dureing Pax Romana.

That's the true irony of war, every nation has stories of classic struggles between good and evil, with good being triumphant. In war everyone think's thier the good guy and the other side the bad guy. The bad guys loose right? It's why many wars last well beyond the point of no return because nobody is the "bad guy".

I like all sorts, Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Star Gate. Pretty much anything with alien babes and ships explodeing. ;)

For the umpteenth time there was no need for civilian contractors because the Empire used slaves for manual labour and droids for the menial tasks like cooking and shit.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

Star Destroyers that could destroy planets? I'm aware that they could lay waste to planets but destroy them?

Nowhere in Star wars canon that I'm aware of are civilian contractors mentioned in the construction of the DS nor is a droid shortage mentioned. I've already explained how the Empire likely managed things.

The only justification you have for that stem from drawing conclusions based on how things work on Earth. Which is flawed because a lot of the difference in technology as well as social and political structure of the Empire compared with whatever example you want to compare it with.

You like Star Trek?

With your "might makes right" attitude you would not even make it into Starfleet.

The Federation of Planets is humanistic political organization with a charter that basically prohibits the sort of "might makes right" Imperialistic attitude that you condone.

If you want to discuss something that was morally ambiguous that occured within the Star Wars universe the clone wars are better subject material.

The war between the Seperatists and the Republic.

Why the Jedi decided to side with the Republic is beyond me.

I was born long enough ago that I saw Star Wars in the theater in 1977 (and 1978) several times as a kid.

What did I say that was freak-ish?

I think "we" are assuming that. Do you have canon evidence there were no civilian contractors, builders, etc. Did droids do all the cooking? We know that wasn't always the case on the planets.



I would like to know more. Why do you think the Seperatists/Rebels had the Jedi on their side?

The onus isn't on me to prove you wrong. It's on you to prove yourself right. This is just basic logic. (It's like the argument of God. To say he exists because I can't prove his non-existence is illogical)

Considering there is no canonical source that supports any of your theories... I automatically win BUT I'm willing to listen to reason.

Therefore the only way we can discuss the possibility of such a situation is via reason. My reasoning is based on how things work in the Star Wars universe. The role of droids and slaves and the nature of the Death Star as a Starship of high strategic importance.

You and Ryozorian base your conclusions that stem from real world assumptions. All you've done is simply attempt to transplant the nature of our reality onto the star wars one. Which would otherwise be fine had it not neglected the technological and political "realities" of the star wars universe.

The Republic had the Jedi on their side, not the seperatists.

The Jedi order didn't exist during the Empire. (Most were hunted down and killed but some survived)

The reason escapes me as to why they would choose a side in that conflict. (My guess is just bad writing though)

The seperatists just wanted independence. Granted they were lead by the trade federation... but I don't see the problem in granting political independence to worlds that wanted it.

I don't know much about the clone wars though.

Droids cannot make technical eqiupment such as Heavy Turbo lasers, plasma coils, shield generators, or tractor beams. You need civilian engineers for that. There are several civilian companies that contracted with the empirial government. You think Star Destroyers grew on trees? How bout Imperial walkers? Honestly, if you have an empire based on exspansion, with constant loss of equipment, you would have a booming economy back on Courisant.

Slaves for manual labor means they were out digging in mines, NOT BUILDING war machines of advanced technology. Slaves would be used in tasks that required little supervision and less thinking.


The Jedi were on the republics side because they were Jedi knights of the republic. The clone troopers were trained to obey jedi knights. Yes, order 66 had them attack jedi..but remeber..when Vader led the 501st against the Jedi temple...He was a Jedi general putting down a jedi rebellion, the troopers never did anything outside thier training.

Also, laying waste to a planet with Star Destroyers pretty much destroys any chance of life, thus it destroys the planet in the sense of it being "Class M" anymore. Turn it into a mineing facility where the slaves can dig I suppose. The DS blowing everything to asteroids was a waste of a good resources.

Yes, Star trek was wishy washy when it came to politics, and it bit them on the ass constantly. Specially with the Jem Hadar and the shapeshifter war. I prefer Klingons. Realistically though, humans would find less advanced races and just shove them over like any other group of "Indians". Put them on some "reservation moon", while we strip mined thier planet bare. Humans would have more in common with the Borg than anything.

I am not sure proving there were non-military personal on the Death Star is the same as proving the existence of God, but it is surely just as hard.

Knowing how the clones act from The Clone Wars movies and TV series, we know they have the same needs as typical Mandalorians. Just because they are clones doesn't mean they don't have personalities and "human" needs.

Is it reasonable to think that those needs are satisfied by droids?

And on that topic, if droids have free will, can the be considered "slaves" as they don't choose their owner?

If we say we can't apply our real world logic to the Star Wars universe, then that will unravel any reason to have a conversation about it.

Regarding Jedi and the Republic... good point, my mistake.

The Clone Wars is a bit of a misnomer, as it was Republic Clones vs. Seperatist Droids, and I guess the war ended with Order 66, with the Clones basically switching over to the Seperatist / Empire.

Fair enough... it's the Internet, so I can never be sure.

Jeez MMM.. I was focusing on the likeness between the two arguments that's all.

Are you just ignoring everything I said? They likely rotated people in on tours of duty. I can't imagine it would be much different to serving out a tour on a ship today.

Depends if the droids on the DS had free will.

I thought the Republic was the Empire.

The Seperatists were just pawns used by Palpatine in order to gain control. An external threat which justified the militarization of the Republic.

Dude. Has it occured to you that the parts were built elsewhere and assembled in one place by military engineers, droid and slave labour?

All the components were likely built planetside somewhere and transported to the assembly point for military technicians to take over.

Not only do you keep your project a secret in this way.. you can mask the construction of the death star by passing off the components as parts of something completely different.

Yeah but Star Destroyers are hardly a weapon of terror. The DS was built intending to crush all remaining resistance to the Empire. Star Destroyers can be brought down by other capital ships and fighters.

The original DS would have been invincible had the Alliance not got a hold of the schematics and the second DS would have been invincible had it been completed.

What do you mean "realistically".

The Star Trek future is essentially a utopian one (some would almost say socialist) so the parameters of reality are set by the people writing it.

While Star Wars is more akin to fantasy, Star Trek is actually much cleverer and has a lot more social commentary.

In the episodes where "they got bit in the ass" by their principles.. the moral of the story was usually that those principles were just.

But it's no surprise that the theme was lost on you lol

I'm Familer with the theme, it wasn't lost on me. Star trek tried to present socialsit type ideals as a Grand idea but mankind would pretty much ruin that because of who and what his is. History paints us in a very bloody brush.

I understand building the DS parts and haveing them assembled. You still wouldn't have slaves do that, and you would still need technical staff for repairs and maintenance. Plus all those civilians who built the spare parts on other planets, not to mention building all those Star Destroyer fleets. Technically those planets are all legit targets for the "resistance".

The Resistance could shoot down Star Destroyers sure..but it cost them more than the empire, because they didn't have the resources to maintain such large number's of ships. Tradeing ship for ship against someone with 100 times more capacity than you is a looseing battle.

A Star Destroyer can put out roughly 60 Horishima's a minute, that's the base firepower of 60 heavy turbo Lasers. ( They did a Kilo Jewel test at some school) A Super Star Destroyer at 12,000 meters, was several times the size of a Star Destroyer, wich was itself 1600 meters. Thus it could pump out a massive amout of damage very quickly.

That's why I personally think the DS was a waste of time. The emperor could have built 100 Star Destroyers with what he used to build those stupid DS's. It would take alot more effort for the resistance to try and take out those 100 Star Destroyers, than relying on some lucky shot for the DS.

CAUTION... LONG RANT!! you've been warned
 

it was a crazy long wall of text.. i dont think i should start off talking this much so early.. I withdraw my comment

It's why they had everyone fight in Star Wars. Haveing them sit around some table and "iron out thier differences" via some peace talk wouldn't make for a good movie. Well, cept maybe in Star Trek.