So are you saying the Rebels shouldn't have blown up the Death Star after the Imperials blew up Alderaan?

Huh? I'm not sure I follow.

I believe the analogy would work if the rebels blew up Coruscant with the Imperial starfleet all but decimated and Palpatine was holed up in his palace. But they didn't because then they wouldn't be the "good guys" anymore wouldn't they.

You are saying the "two wrongs don't make a right" analogy doesn't work, and mentioned Star Wars.

I am not asking you to rewrite the movie, but am asking if the Rebels were in the right, or in the wrong in blowing up the Death Star.

wrongs
 

Seems, the matter of discussion is over. :D I would not to call it offtopic, but the bombings of japanese cities and Star Wars events.....:confused:

I'll play along.

I would say in the right. What's your point?

But surely thousands, if not tens of thousands, or maybe hundreds of thousands of innocent people were killed when the Death Star was destroyed, but since the Imperials destroyed Alderaan, that was justified. Right?

Where in the star wars movies were there innocent people on the death star?

Star wars is a movie of where caricatures representing good battle caricatures representing evil.

The problem is that people think of WW2 in the same way.

The storm troopers did not choose to be storm troopers, but were bred to be agents of the Empire.

Is a pit bull bred to fight evil by choice, or by happenstance?

But you are saying theoretically, the Rebel use of force against the Empire is justified, or essentially two wrongs can make a right.

However in a similar situation the Americans were not justified in using A-bombs against Japan to end the war.

1- This is not a similar situation to America using the A-bomb. Not only that I've pretty much spent the entire thread explaining why it was unjustified and I don't really want to do it again but to cut a long story short.. Japan had been seeking avenues to surrender as early as 1943, the Japanese forces were all but defeated and it was only a matter of time before they did surrender. This is something that US intelligence at the time was claiming. (however the president insisted that the a bombs be dropped causing immense suffering for generations to come).

2- You're overthinking Star wars. I said I refuse to go along with a Star wars narrative of history where one side is caricaturized as good and the other evil.

3- I would still say that the destruction of the death star was justified.

1. Why not? If you don't want to play ball, I can't make you. I would say, however, it is very easy in 2011 to look back 60+ years and judge how decisions were made. I would ask you to look at it in the context of the time.

2. Again, think about it in the context of the time. You can decide that neither side was right or wrong or good or evil, but that's not the narrative of the time. Was Japan, Germany and Italy seen simply as other countries, or as evil by the Allied countries? It seems like you are are saying if the other side is evil, then it is justified, but it isn't fair to consider the Axis forces as evil. However, I am sure you know how they were viewed: as evil.

3. Why?

I've re-edited my post to show you why. Records show that there was no need for the dropping of the a-bombs. They knew that then as they knew now so this context of the time argument is bull.

I didn't understand your point in number 2. I have no problem classing the Axis as "evil". The problem I have is the idea that the allies were somwhow "good". But more importantly I find both designations irrelevant.

As for point 3. The storm troopers were agents of the Empire. Whether they had a choice in their employment is debatable too. Also the Death star was a military installation. It's destruction would be comparable to the sikning of the Yamato perhaps rather than the firebombing or nuking of a city.

I don't completely disagree with what you are saying, but I thought your introduction of Star Wars into the conversation was interesting and wanted to explore it a bit. I appreciate your indulgence.

If there truly was no good reason to drop the A-bombs, then it is hard to say it is justified.

If the Axis was evil then what were the Allies? What are those that fight against and fight to destroy evil?

You can say storm troopers were agents of the Empire, whether they chose that role or not, but weren't the citizens of Japan agents of the Emperor in much the same way? They were born into their roles and not given a choice? Were they not fed the same sort of information, that their emperor was a deity, and should be followed to the death?

I understand we are comparing a movie to actual history, but you are saying one is justified and one is not, and on at least a surface level I am looking at why.

As I said earlier, star wars is a movie where caricatures representing good go against caricatures representing evil in an epic battle accross the galaxy. I wasn't intending to introduce star wars into the conversation. Rather compare the narrative of the movie with the narratives of history that some in here are offering. Narratives I think are biased and not at all objective.

The Allies were evil too. Made up of colonial European powers who were also brutal in much of Africa and Asia as well as the United States which was all willing to defend that status quo.

The distinction is that the storm trooper is a soldier in the Imperial military. If you consider Japanese citizens as valid targets then by logic you must consider the people that died in the WTC towers valid too.

I already thanked you for indulging me, and I said I can't make you participate in this indulgence.

That is an interesting perspective, and I think speaks to the innate evil of war itself.

I don't think I can let you off the hook on this one.

Last things first, those that attacked the Twin Towers on 9/11 certainly saw all the people that they killed as valid targets.

However, I didn't say all Japanese were legitimate targets, only that they didn't have the choice to not be Japanese, just as storm troopers didn't have the choice not to be storm troopers. That doesn't make the Japanese guilty, but just makes the storm troopers more innocent.

Well then I suppose I'm saying that the storm troopers were legitimate targets because they were military.

Also.. I think you are guilty of spinning the star wars movies just a little bit. The clones of Jango Fett were not mindless drones.. like say the Borg. Sure they might be "innocent" if you consider their lack of choice in the matter but remember.. they committed terrible acts and were self conscious.

Furthermore.. if they were like the Borg and mindless drones then you could attempt to justify their deaths that way.

I'll also add that it's debatable whether all the stormtroopers were clones. The protagonist in the game Dark Forces was once a storm trooper who became disillusioned with the Empire and he was recruited into the Imperial Academy. This series is considered canon.

I am not saying they weren't military, I am saying the storm troopers didn't have a choice not to be military, therefore they are more innocent, than, say leaders like Palpatine and Tarkin.

Sure storm troopers committed terrible acts, but not all of them. And did you ever see a storm trooper defect? Did you ever see one decline orders? This was the only existence they were aware of and conscious of? Do you think they got both sides of the story on Alderaan and the Rebel Alliance?

I wouldn't say that. I would say that, like much of the world at the time of WWII, they were fed propaganda and worked off of that.

And you accuse me of spinning? Let's go by the canon that was established in Episodes 1, 2, and 3, that may change canon from non-movie titles.

I fail to see the logic. You're presuming their innocence because they had no choice. I'm NOT presuming their guilt just saying that as military they were legitimate targets

You're taking this way too seriously. Star Wars is a work of fiction. Whatever is presented in the movies or considered lore via the many books and video games considered canon is the way it was as was intended by George Lucas and the various minds that helped build this fictional universe. You can't just make up conspiracies.

I have no problem with that. Being subject to propaganda is not an excuse for committing atrocities though and does not make you innocent by default.

If it's considered canon by Lucas then what's the problem?

I am saying it is a sort of unique situation because they had not choice to be military or not, so that gives them another layer of innocence that some militants would not have who joined a cause by choice.

You can't tell me I am taking it too seriously when you respond to every point with the same level of detail that I do.

I am not making up conspiracies. However, canon shouldn't be contradictory.

When did I say anyone was innocent by default? I am saying they were using the information that was given to them at the time.

It contradicts itself.

Are you saying the American forces would have acted differently if America had been bombed by A-bombs on American soil before dropping the A-bombs?

Who knows? No one can answer that question.

Knowing what we know now, would America have made the same choice to drop the A-bombs on Japan?

Who knows? No one can answer that question.

This thread isn't about Iraq and Afghanistan, so I am not going to go there here.

Fine.. I still maintain they are legitimate targets via the fact that they are military.

Yeah but when I do it I have specific scenes or facts from the Star Wars universe in mind. You can't just imply a conspiracy. Whether they had the full story on Alderaan or not etc. is irrelevant. All you need to know is that they were the good guys and the empire was the bad guys. That was all the writers intended and that is the problem with looking at history in this way that I was getting to originally.

I don't even know where you're going with this anymore. Bottom line.. I can justify the attack on the death star. You can't justify the bombing of Hiroshima in light of the facts I've presented here.

No it doesn't. I just assumed that the Empire recruited as well as used clones. The galaxy is a pretty big place after all.

The Death star was a self contained city with over a million people on board. Yes, it was a death machine but it also had large numbers of civilians on board who ran day to day functions. The point is simple..you have to kill the civilians if you want to stop the evil death star from killing another planet. Those civilians chose to side with Palpatine and his storm trooper brigades so they aren't completely innocent.

The same is true in any city, civilians run basic operations of a country, they are also the foundation of industry wich builds the tanks, bombers, ships, bullets and guns of the military, they also provide the raw resource for future troops. They are as much a part of "total war" as any thing on the primary battle field.

If a nation went to war with the US, primary targets would have to include major cities because those are cites of manaerfactureing. Detroit, Silicon Vally, Dallas, Miami...New York just to name a few. They are important stratigic locations because of what they provide. Hell, my own town of 30,000 is a old cold war Nuke target because we have a major weapons depot right next to us. The plants there made all sorts of tank rounds and asorted missle parts..includeing nukes and the workers who made them, were housed in my town.

War crimes to me have always kinda been a joke. War is about winning and looseing. Just like a bar fight, their aint no rules, this isn't a boxng match it's a life or death struggle of one national identity against another. Sure people have tried to make it "humane" with geneva conventions and whatever, but really that's stupid...when it comes to brass tacks, nobody is going to follow that anyway, not if it means thier country looses because of them.

If you're going to be entirely consistent then you have to believe that the WTC victims were legitimate targets as were the victims in Pearl Harbour, the raids in Britain as well as the holocaust.

I disagree with that... but if indeed you do agree with the above in the name of consistency then the only high ground you can claim is that you have the bigger stick because you've effectively done away with any chance to take a moral one. (If you don't agree with the above then I'm going to accuse you of extreme nationalistic sentiments for not being consistent)

That's the high ground I'm taking over you and all you apologists for the dropping of the atomic bombs.

All you're saying is "might makes right".

PS- Nowhere is it mentioned that the death star contained civilians. Stop making shit up.

Since service onboard the Death Star was a long-term affair, the station maintained a number of civilian amenities to make the time aboard a deep space station more comfortable. Parks, shopping centers, recreation areas, and taverns such as the Hard Heart Cantina could be found in the general sectors of the station.[4]

Death Star - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

lol... Not Canon I'm afraid. Not to mention that the article is regarded as not sourced properly.

The source that it linked to was a game called Death Star designer. Sounds like a sim city in space.

Death Star Designer - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

By the way MMM.. I don't know why you're trying so hard to trip me up over my use of Star wars to describe the historical narrative that many people tend to believe regarding WW2.

If it's just in good fun concerning the Star wars universe then fine.. I don't mind playing. A discussion into the morality of the acts committed by the rebel alliance would be somethig fun to take part in actually. But I'd appreciate it if you made it a branch thread where it can be discussed seperately as guys like Ryozorian are taking my comments and running in all sorts of directions with them as they try and relate it back to the main topic.

Again.. I only brought up star wars to describe the way in which the Germans and Japanese became caricatures of evil and the Allies caricatures of good.

Death Star Designer was a promotional game for Star Wars: Lethal Alliance video game, which is considered canon, if you want to get technical.

Acctually, there is a star wars book about said cantinea out..those books are considered "canon". Just have to check the basic scematics in the Star wars D20 system anyway...Death Star was huge, with over 1 million folks onboard.

As to the Towers, it was a legit target in the sense of it being a bastion of our economic system. The issue is that I believe it was an unprovoked attack, IE..some dude walks by you and cold cocks you across the nose. Maybe they had thier reasons, that's fine. We will see to it that it's marked on thier tombstone "They had their reasons".

War is hell, it's in everyone abject interest to make sure hell is brought apon the enemy so they realise just what kind of hell they have brought apon themselves and thier families. The horrors of war, the enemy must be brought to witness on the horrors they inflict on themselves, with thier own actions.

That's partly why those bombs were droped, to show the emperor, just what his war has wrought his own country. That's why he surrendered, the cost was too high for him to bear. For him, it was better to bear the "Unenbearlable" aspect of defeat, than the loss of an entire nation.

death machines
 

Recalling the movie, the Death Star was a combat space station with a skilled military personnel onboard. They wore imperial uniform and served various systems and weaponry.
For instance, you can establish various caffe, bars and shops inside an aircraft carrier, but she will be still a warship, not a civilian sea liner.

It's a very dangerous concept and a good justification for any terrorist group. Their leader could tell something like :
"My relatives were killed of american bombs years ago. Here is an american tourist that came to some foreign country. Originally, he lives in a certain american state. The known military plant which builds the bombers also located in that state. Therefore, a tourist is linked to the production of the plant and represents an enemy himself. I have a holy right to kill him"

During Cold War, Soviets just fully accepted an original American conception of a "total war". Soviet leaders learned lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well, as learned classified information from Operation Dropshot, provided by Soviet intelligence.

quote :

Operation Dropshot was the United States Department of Defense code-name for a contingency plan for a possible nuclear and conventional war with the Soviet Union and its allies in order to counter the anticipated Soviet takeover of Western Europe, the Near East and parts of Eastern Asia expected to start around 1957. The plan was prepared in 1949 during the early stages of the Cold War and declassified in 1977. Although the scenario did make use of nuclear weapons, they were not expected to play a decisive role.

At the time the US nuclear arsenal was limited in size, based mostly in the United States, and depended on bombers to be delivered. Dropshot included mission profiles that would use 300 nuclear bombs and 29,000 high-explosive bombs on 200 targets in 100 cities and towns to wipe out 85% of the Soviet Union's industrial potential at a single stroke. Between 75 and 100 of the 300 nuclear weapons would be used to destroy Soviet combat aircraft on the ground.

Wiki

That's why many US cities and town were primary targets for the Soviet ICBMs.


When you are above Geneva conventions and other "stupid jokes", someone considers passengers of US civil jets as legitimate targets for violent actions.

But Death Star Designer isn't canon. You can try and spin it any other way but the fact is that it isn't

Ryozorian if you want a scenario that would link the star wars universe and the dropping of the atomic bomb then picture post Return of the Jedi, the Empire starfleet is decimated over the remaining months and the Emperor has been hiding out on Coruscant looking for a way out of the war. The citizens of Coruscant have endured months of orbital bombing and the Alliance intelligence is saying that it's only a matter of time and that anti-matter bombs would not only be unnecessary but also a waste of life.

Alliance high command orders the bombing anyway.

I am not trying hard to do anything, I am just exploring an idea, and appreciate your indulgence.

I have separated this branch, by request, so we can talk the Star Wars aspect in regards to Japan and WWII without being accused of belittling serious issues by comparing it to a sci-fi movie series.

Thanks MMM for making this into a seperate thread.

Here's why the destruction of the death star was justified.

It was a weapon of mass destruction with the ability to destroy whole planets.

While it is unlikely there were civilians on the original death star, the incomplete death star orbiting Endor might have had slave labour aboard as the Empire was reknowned for their practice of slavery. I'm thinking probably Wookies. I'm willing to concede this.

I would still say that the destruction was justified though. The completion of the second death star would have made the Empire all but invincible and the wookies that died on board would have been sacrificed for the freedom of the entire planet of Kashyyk as well as other slaves that might have been used.

The Alliance was less a rebel alliance at the time of ROTJ and more of an entirely new political entity made up of worlds that had yet to be subjugated by the Empire. With the Death star complete and fully operational, the Empire would have no problem in threatening these worlds into joining the Empire.

That would force the rebels back into the rag tag force they were at Yavin stripping them of many resources and equipment that was supplied to them and pretty much sealing their fate.

In effect the Alliance had no choice but to destroy both death stars for the sake of themselves and the galaxy.

It's obvious it's all Chewbacca's fault.

What the hell lets go all the way and do a cross over with LOTR..we could have Gandalf standing in the trench shouting "you shall not pass" while ben kenobi and yoda's ghost go medievil on the undead that betrayed gondor under the strobe lighting of palpatine and the eye doing there thing.

and

if were blessed some teddy bears winning the day then using the decapitated heads as musical instruments.


hey i like star wars too but take care of your subject matter.

some things should not be made fun off.

I am curious if you (or anyone else) think the American government and military thought any differently in the summer of '45. "We can end this war right now, but it is going to change history and how wars are fought forever..."

I understand the argument to destroy the Death Stars, and don't disagree, but we are thinking about the loss of innocent life. We cannot accurately guess how many non-military personnel were on DS-1, but I think we can estimate that there were more than zero. A military base does not survive with only military personnel. There need to be cooks, at the least, as well as other off-duty distractions. No one has ever chastised the Rebel Alliance for the mass destruction of the Empire's Death Stars with no discrimination for those that that some were simply innocent individuals at the wrong place at the wrong time. The Battle of Yavin is considered an unconditional victory for the Rebels (as is the Battle of Endor). Should the Rebels have shown more responsibility, or is the fact that the Death Star itself a military target excuse any residual damages?

Who is making fun? If you do not like the discussion you are free to not participate, but I would challenge you to find a post that doesn't take the topic seriously. The only one making fun seems to be you.

It is understood that most of the US high command thought the dropping of the a bombs unnecessary as well as many of the scientists behind the Manhattan project.

I can confidently say there were no civilians on DS-1 because of the existence of droids. The original death star was full of them and they were designed to take on all the menial tasks that in todays world get contracted out.

And in answer to the bolded question. Yes. It does excuse it. But again.. the only collateral would have been the slaves that MAY have been on board. (Remember I'm giving you that one as no source that I'm aware of points to slave labour being used in the construction of DS-2. I just assumed it due to the Empire's reputation for using slaves, especially wookies for hard labour.)

termogard had it correct earlier. The destruction of the death star is akin to the destruction of an aircraft carrier or a military base rather than the destruction of a city.

Well I stand corrected.Sorry mate!

whats next?

1)Chernobyl! but in a carebear spin?

Radiation bear does the care bear stare?

2) 3 mile island with a ken and barbie spin?

heck it aint easy to look that good.


There are recent events in the west were such things wouldnt be acceptible...so why when people are still living in the aftermath of this particular event subject to discussions such as this.

Its a historical event if people wish to discuss the wrongs/rights of it i would make my own opinions more known....but i dont agree of hiding it in another discussion.

This discussion was born out of my comparison of Star Wars to the way Americans understand WW2.

It has evolved into this.

This is how discussions both on the internet and in real life work.

Now please... if you don't have anything to add then butt out.

Well fair enough.

Im not American or to be honest Japanese.

So its just opinion..and you know what they say about those!

but before i go.....Hiroshima/Nagasaki conversations in real life merge into a star wars mythos.

only in a kevin smith film mate.

You must have boring friends.