I know you ain't going to berate me it was more some others I was warning off :mtongue:

I too bark a lot, but unlike you I also bite ROAR :D

I'll give my 2 cents on this.

I saw the Freakonomics movie and thought the section with crime-rate, namely murder, having reduced by up to 50% in the us 20 years after Roe v Wade as being pretty damning evidence supporting abortion.
A good point made in the movie also is that a woman who has an abortion isn't necessarily having fewer children but rather having them at a later time when she can provide it with a better life.

The value of a fetal life is in fact a considerable factor. But how about the value of the lives murdered due to high crime rate caused by unexpected/unwanted pregnancies? Those lives who may have children of their own etc.
And how about the life of the mother, which may well be stunted by being forced into early motherhood.

I think adoption is a more viable solution but if all abortions were to become adoptions the orphanages would be full by the end of the month.

RE - Ryzorian's point that although it is alive it is not a life, i repsectfully disagree, it is a life - it was creatud to be thus. My point is this - imagine for a second that a study by the UN or soemthing finally concluded once and for all that a foetus even early on or for arguments sake at conception IS A LIFE or is alive, and then all the debate about that matter ended.....

would abortions cease to happen.. of course not - so what is the point of proving or arguing about wheter it is alive or a life or not at a certain point? its just a waste of energy.

If the foetus gets aborted - it isnt gonna complain ot doesnt know whats going on - the drama all comes from the minds of those who object to it they have the emotional attachment all going on in their heads... the foetus actually couldnt give a shit.

Than it would be(or it is(?) simply a case of discrimination, wouldn't it?
The fetus cannot complain, so we can decide its fate... ah well, they wouldn't be alone, just some tiny 'things' in the 'ocean' of discriminated creatures.

It's still theoretical of course...

id reply but - ya lost me lol :)

I was just pointing out something in the case you've fabricated.
If the fetus was alive/life, proven by any scientific forums and we'd still allow abortion, the debate wouldn't end it'd simply turn into an 'equal opportunity' debate...
And all the fetus who were 'killed', because they were unwanted or could have caused health issues for the mother, would be unequally treated.
Or has my logic failed me?
I'm not wishing this to happen tho. I only wish for (maybe/in some cases) striker rules and more responsible people...

What about mentally retarded? They are not allways even aware of anything around them, would they give a "sh-t" if we decided killing all the retarded would save us money?, resources and emotional anquish? .What about mentally unstable, like that guy in Arizona? Should we then conclude it would be better for culture as a whole to "abort" those types of people because they can't be trusted otherwise?

Aren't they the same arguement's the Nazi's used to have thier "final solution"? about Jews?

It's why I personally believe we have to have a set, visable line between life and death and what's permissable and what's not. Because the fuzzier the line gets, the more people who are considered "borderline" get draged into it.

Actually I fully agree with this (if not the wording). There are a lot of people who are less agile mentally or physically, and commiting abortions simply because a child isn't "perfect" really irks me. Recently there's a lot of mothers testing for downsyndrome, and a lot who abort if they think their child has it, and - yes - it may not be something a person wants, and it may make life difficult, but there are many downsyndrome children who live productive, happy and well-adjusted lives. Some are the kindest and happiest people I've met, who work good jobs and have children of their own. Other issues like autism also come in gradients, and if someone aborts simply because that child is 'autistic' then I can name so many people who have added to the arts, sciences or society as a whole who would not have existed . . .

I kind of agree that it does have a 'Nazi-like' feel to it. I think some diseases or illnesses - ones that the child stands no chance, would truly suffer, wouldn't be at all possible to live a long and/or independent life - could possibly qualify for abortion, but just for any old thing . . . it's like the whole Aryian (sp?) perfect race. It's just one step behind the whole 'designer baby' concept, where theoretically one could choose the baby's entire appearance.

Although as much as I agree with a 'visible line' between what should be permissiable and what shouldn't, I don't think that's possible. They'll never be a majority agreement for one case or another, and they'll always be people who disagree. It's probably naive to try and find one set of beliefs/rules to apply to everyone . . .

ok i think i understand what your saying however i think you may have missed my point, which is - Imagine a women says she wants an abortion for NO REASON other than she wants. No medical concerns or no financial reason just plain and simple she doesnt want to.

ok now what can i you or anyone else do about that - the truth is nothing and i believe so it should be - it is the womens right and if she wants an abortion or not is up to her. There shuld be no need for any justification to anybody for that decision.

Anybody else trying to influence that decision or trying to "change things" is interfering and really needs to get out of others lives and into their own.

I find it funny that in one thread you say that the people should be fine with severe media control and you don't believe that is so hard to live when the law-enforcement and penalty enforcement are unpredictable and the government is totalitarian and here you say women should be able to chose whatever they like to do with the scientifically proven alive fetus*.
*It was your hypothesis wasn't it...
I feel myself in the dark ages when I think about how you mean these things.
Sure I missed your point, but your example failed too. If the fetus was alive/life from the conception, than eventually abortion would be prohibited as the laws do not allow murder and our societies do not support discrimination... weather it'd happen or not anyway is a different question, murders happen every day although to kill another human being is considered as the worst sin of all.

MissMisa
It was a theoretical conversation...
I don't want to offend you but, if you don't like that we have different opinions just ignore them. No one wants to tell what should a women do with their own bodies, (though I think prostitution is prohibited in many country, and euthanasia is also etc) but in this case it's not just the women's body and definitely not just the women's baby. But you're right it's only the women's right up until 12+ weeks in most of the countries.

Father's apparently get no say in the whole thing. Course one could argue that the male shoulda known better anyway, so I guess there's that.

The designer baby thing is relavent because of how gene mapping is advanceing technology. The Movie Gattica is something I would recomend because it illistrates that type of future.

choose whatever theyd like LOL - they only have two options - either have it or kill it! simple and either way it has nothing to do with a third party - my point is - THEY SHOULDNT HAVE TO JUSTIFY IT TO ANYBODY!

wether they have it or not is up to them - im just pointing out that if they want to they can kill their own foetus as it is theirs! and not worry about what "society" may think

well. if a kid is autistic (later stages) then it is like you said. he can live a happy life. but - the life of his parents won't be. i've seen these people - so miserable because of their child - they do everything to make him happy and yes - the kid is happy, but parents aren't (not all cases but still plenty). it is always harder for those around than than the person with defects.
lets say you are a successful working woman with dreams of a great life. your child comes along and now your whole life is bind to taking care of him - in some cases for rest of the child's life without realizing any of your hopes.
this could have been the way it went for my family because of my leg problems when i was born, but in the end everything was better than ok. still - it was a small chance and i would hate myself for robbing my parents of their lives if it didn't work out.

Wether something "works out" or not often times is based on the willpower of the individuals in question.

The US currently has a unwed pregnancy topping over 41% nationally, in 1960 it was 5.1 %. That's over all. Amoung the black population it's over 70% and the hispanic population it's 50%. White's are at 29%, wich is about what the black unwed pregnancy situation was at in 1960 when Patrick Moynahan mentioned it as a concern.

Today over 70% of people 18 to 30 fail to meet the basic requirements for the military and of the remaining 30 % or so, less than 3% can pass the test to get into the military. The situation has gotten to the point that the USA Today had a write up in it's editorial.

The basic structure of the family unit, at least in many parts of the US is falling apart. Historically, this is a sign of moral decay an collapse. AKA Rome.

well. usa citizens become more damaged after they are born. 25% of population is obese - unable to do anything. only then comes fat people which combined with obese is ~ 65%.
sorry. but in this case there are more problems with the lifestyle, not birth.

:O is it that bad??
I have been in Japan too long, I can no longer imagine 2/3 of the people I see being fat and 1/4 to be baloon-like

But now that I think of it I do remember having this culture-shock surprise that everyone here is ultra thin when I first got here.

well. people who go to usa feel the same way only it is reverse. my friend works there and he was shocked seeing how big the people are and just how much they eat fast food. he was working at some sandwich shop so he had seen it all.
i think its ok to experience culture shock but what it says about the country where the shock comes from fat people? i've had the experience when i was in egypt since there were a lot of black people. in my country there are some 10 maybe? ...you never see one (mby 5 times in my life) :cool: i guess in a way it was the same as going to america and seeing XXXXL sized people - another thing that is not here...