If you can compare a Muslim student wearing a head scarf to pissing in public, I think my point is proved about your own intolerance, and ability to overlook it.

Unfortunatlely I am not the cartoon character you like to think I am, and if you seriously think I would support price gouging foreigners then over the last couple years you have learned nothing about me. You want to paint me into this "asiaphile" paint-by-numbers, but the surprises are going to keep coming because that isn't me.

Funny how inside jokes and sarcasm don't translate so well in text-based forums. Still, talking about beating me in the head with a baseball bat is a "joke" that won't be tolerated again.

I am so sorry I addressed your question about tattoo culture in Japan. My fault. Lesson learned.

I suppose Japanese people should accept tattoos and wearing shoes inside the house and eating only with forks and spoons and drinking and driving, etc.

I am not sorry, Tenchu, when I say it just doesn't work that way. That doesn't make me an asiaphile, that makes me a realist.

You still haven't addressed the logic behind the answer to your issue of why tattooed people are not allowed into onsens (yakuza culture).

So now tattoos are "free speech"? Maori, Muay Thai and "some African thing" are not a part of mainstream Japanese culture, so changing the rules for cultures that are wholly or almost in no existence in Japan is backwards logic.

Most gyms don't allow tattoos there. I'd just try and keep it covered as much as possible. You might be able to get into a sento as I saw a lot of Japanese with tattoos in those (probably some of them were yakuza lol)

your examples are pretty dimwitted. you are comparing pissing in public to muslim people. i never made that link, i was referring to a WHOLE entire different example. your wits got knocked out of you once too many times in thailand.

this is what i originally said


you made an example of "schools don't allow muslim people to wear head scarfs" seriously, only the females wear their gourmets that cover their face (schools around here don't restrict them), boys and teenagers don't wear "head scarf" from what you call it, that is your ignorant racist ways shining through. my 3 years of combat tours, never once did i see a child wear a "head scarf" on their head. it's for town leaders, religious leaders, and adults. get a hold of yourself.

another example you gave is no blacks on golf courses? seriously? what the hell

so i was making an entirely new example that was referring to standards, why set the bar a little lower for someone else if that is the standard that should be held for everybody?

answer the bold only please, i know you will nit-pick something else and ignore my main statement.

Well, it really does come as a shock.

I suppose it's a poor assumption. Like, just because someone's gay, it doesn't mean they want to have sex with every man around. I guess you're the same as this.

Oh grow up, old man. Don't make this forum into a pink pillow slumber party.

Do you use a desert spoon to eat a main course?

Japanese people use chop-sticks; it's their culture. Other Asians only eat with desert spoons because they had no culture when it came to eating; they used their hands.

Why should they make their house all dirty?

Are these supposed to be serious comebacks? MMM, this isn't the dark ages. Going to Japan is not some valiant quest where you'll have to slay dragons and get enlightened by 1,000 year old Taoist monks on top of cloudy mountains.

We live in the 21st century; immigration and travel are common things. Having such a huge taboo about such a broad range of people is clearly not appropriate in the modern world.

If Japanese are literally too stupid to realize having tattoos has nothing to do with being a gansta outside of their own population, then they clearly need some serious education on foreigners.

Well, my understanding is these Japanese tattoos the Yakuza use are very specific and easily identifiable. They're usually on the arms, but can also spread to the chest and back. They're brightly colored and almost always feature a dragon.

There is no way you could confuse the tattoos of a Buddhist monk or Muay Thai fighter, or a Maori with the tattoos of a Yakuza gansta. It's completely unrealistic to say you could confuse them.

Moreover, it is okay to frown upon people who disrespect their parents. However, tribal tattoos and Thai tattoos are exactley the opposite; they're fashioned in a way that idolizes your ancestors, parents and heritage.

In Muay Thai, not only do they have tattoos to respect their ancestors, their outfits are usually have bone fragments of their ancestors or parents if they're passed sewn into them to bring them good luck.

Acknowledging this, you can come to see how stupid it is to say both that it is disrespectful to your parents and also how stupid it is to associate this with criminals.

If they really dismiss people with non Yakuza tattoos, then it shows a great lack of respect and consideration for other people, and their culture. You could even go as far as saying they're also disrespecting that persons tribe (Maori, African), profession and parents (Muay Thai) and religion (Buddhist monks).

Yes, it's freedom to express yourself without fear of social rejection. These hold very important and significant meanings to some people, and were they to travel, it would be very offensive to them to be excluded from social gatherings because of this.

Well, you obviously have missed the point of this thread, but you've bought up something else, also:

I guess I can kiss any chance of me learning Sumo goodbye then.

Now do you see how people can be excluded, MMM?

Muslim girls start wearing head scarfs sometimes from the age of about 3 or so; they do in Thailand. I live in a very Muslim area.

In this example, I was reffering to Muslim high school girls in France who're being sent home from school for wearing a "religous symbol". The ban also covers stars of David, crosses, funny Jew hats, so on. But only the Muslim girls are the ones who're feeling exploited by the law; it is very important for them.

To this day in America, there exist golf courses which do not allow negros.

It's called social acceptance; indiscrimination. Obviously, if you live in Japan, you might want to think twice about getting tattoos because you're already aware of the social retardations. But for tourists or people on business runs who have heavy tattoos, they're going to be in for a very big shock at Japanese intolerance in some social settings. It will be unpleasant for them, even to the point where some people are going to have to consider not going to Japan, because their way of life is unacceptable.

From my understanding of the Japanese issue with tattoos stems from two areas.
The first has been covered in the gang type posts.

The second is a more basic and simple fact. The Japanese feel that only weak minded and those of impure spirit feel the need to deface their body.
It is seen as an overt sign of self mutilation. Like being proud of your failed suicide attempts by showing off your scarred wrists.
Failure to forfill a suicide is a good sign that you are a weak person, just like getting some "good for now" sign scratched onto your body is a good idicator that you are weak and predisposed to bolstering your self image by using a better substitute that you can use to deflect attention away from your issues.

Also it is offensive for other people to look at your tattoos, not everyone need to see what you think is cool.
Just buy the tee shirt, a thing that can be taken off and changed with the season.

As for the muslim issue. The only people with problems concerning this are the muslims. Everyone else is bored to tears with the whining and moaning of this hard done by, and greatly oppressed group (of racist and sexist religious maniacs).

That used to be the case, but name one today if you can. They may not be members in some cases, which discriminates against far more than blacks, but they are allowed to play the courses with others who are members. Personally I find golf an elitest and vile excuse for a sport, but that is just me.

Dirtyroboto brought up an excellent point. There is more to the cultural distaste for tattoos than simply its association with Yakuza.

as for dirtyroboto's post.

I am wondering if it's only musicians who must not feel it's a thing that weak minded people, and those with "impure spirits" do. or if people in the general population might not think that way, also.

I think it's not right to think that way, as me I have tattoos, but I am not weak minded, nor do I have an "impure spirit".

When you choose to ink yourself you are absolutely inserting yourself into the realm of social rejection. You are rejecting the norm and entering a different social realm.

Tenchu, when I explain the Japanese cultural perspective, it doesn't mean it is MY perspective. Just so we are clear.

And Japanese do understand there are tattoo cultures outside their own...very much so. I said that.

However, you are the owner of a public bath. Your public bath doesn't allow tattoos simply to keep yakuza baddies out. In walks a white guy with Muay Thai tattoos and says "I am not yakuza. I want to use your public bath." Do you let him in?

No. You do not. Because once word gets back to the local yakuza they let the white guy with tattoos in, the yakuza will be screaming "discrimination" and making a lot of unwanted noise.

It isn't racism or discrimination, but a desire to keep one's business from going bankrupt.

Tenchu, if you think MMM is a mindless Japanophile, you obviously missed the "I DON'T want to live in Japan" thread...

can you explain a situation where japanese intolerance was so high it would cause a tourist to feel so unpleasant, to the point where they have to consider not going to japan? have you been discriminated in japan? or you just imagining that "if i was in japan i would be highly discriminated"

as MMM stated earlier, businesses have to keep a standard, foreign traveler or not, or the businesses such as onsens would be discriminating towards their own. i couldn't have said it better than MMM.

I'm covered in tattoos that represent my family, religion, profession and self; all with great pride. these tattoos are placed mostly all over my torso, but also my shins, thighs, and upper arms.

I'm proud to be a boxer. I'm proud to be a soldier. I'm proud of my faith. I'm proud of my family. I'm proud of who I am.

Is there any chance left in the universe I will ever be accepted into a Sumo stable?

Yes, you're right. So, acknowledging this, why won't you accept Japanese are a bunch of racist ***** ****** ********** ********** ************ [many swear words]?

I'm guessing I'm at the stage where I could make a thread "10 reasons why you hate the Japanese".

I admired an ancient culture of Bushido and Samurai, but that's long gone. What's left today is a bunch of socially deprived men, perverted, morally corrupt (don't let me go into their porn realm), brainwashing (all of their business revolve around basic concepts of psychology that amount to brainwashing in order to sell more), and just plain racist people.

Sure, their food is good (once you pick the endangered species out). But I'm coming to find the bad outweighs the good, and they've a deep underlying social problems that retard themselves from the rest of the advanced world.

At first, they come off as a civilization mecca in the heart of Asia, but it seems they're far from it. Even as bad as Thailand.

You're the owner of a public bar in America.

A black guy comes in and pulls a gun on you.

Place a sign on the door "No Niggers will be Served".

It won't stick.

people with tattoo's are a whole new race now? :mtongue: they're not racist, that's just how their culture is. it's hundreds of years old and they are built around how things were done in the past. it will take time to change tenchu.

again... people with tattoo's are not a race. alter your example a little more to make more sense.

Tenchu, you can't have the best of both worlds. that's just life. if you really had the desire to be a sumo (which you don't) then you would not get tattoo's because of your drive to succeed as a sumo. i still do not see how you, as a tourist, will have so much hart ache visiting this country that you should not visit. it's a path that you walked, you can't walk two roads at the same time. succeed in the one you took.

still haven't answered my question
Originally Posted by JackIsLost View Post
can you explain a situation where japanese intolerance was so high it would cause a tourist to feel so unpleasant, to the point where they have to consider not going to japan? have you been discriminated in japan? or you just imagining that "if i was in japan i would be highly discriminated"

sorry for the crappy posting and quoting, i'm trying to talk to multiple people over different mediums

That is a major point here. Having a tattoo is considered unacceptable, or at least degrading in many societies, not just in Japan.

It is a choice one makes and has to live with. If one was not aware of that at the time the choice was made that is unfortunate. Because this is rarely considered by teenagers wanting to follow the trend most places in the U.S. have passed laws making illegal to tattoo anyone who is not a legal adult without written permission of a parent or guardian.

Jack, Tenchu has never been to Japan, so his opinions are not based on first-hand information.

I don't know what they are based on, but it isn't anything in the reality I know. The leaps in logic being made are far to vast to be even addressable.

Tenchu feel free to hate Japan because tattoos are not the social norm there. But be sure to hate almost all of the rest of the world, because the same is true almost everywhere, but I imagine you already do.

You're the definition of asiaphile, MMM.

Jack, I'd say you were too, but I have a feeling you're Asian yourself, so you're something else.

I guess the point to sum it up is the ancient concept of an eye for an eye, and you reap what you sew.

I'll think twice before having a Japanese guest in my house now, and especially at my dinner table. It's because I know they'd do the same for me.

Infact, anyone with tattoos I think would have issues with Japanese who're like this. Why should we accept them into our house when they wouldn't let us into theirs?

I know MMM will think of some smart asiaphile comeback about respecting cultures or whatever and why Japanese don't have to respect other cultures because they live in Japan. But at the end of the day, they're truly f**ing arrogant.

They can go fu** themselves. I'm sick of stupid Asian racist BS and the idiots who say I have to tolerate them when they won't tolerate me.

I'll leave this forum in the hands of asiaphiles from now on.

And please continue to wear your ignorance as a medal of honor. After two-plus years you obviously don't know me or Japan.

But like I said at the beginning, this thread isn't about me or you.

All I'm saying is I take issue with being turned away from a place because I have tattoos. Now people try to tell me it was my fault, and something that's openly accepted in my culture brands me a criminal elsewhere.

Honestly, it's arrogant. I'm not a yakuza. They'd know that.

I know why they consider their skin to be so precious, as well; it's another racism thing that came about having pure and white skin was what separated you from poor people. We've talked about that many times.

In the end, in Thailand, tattoos are encouraged here as a means of spirituality and social acceptance. It's not ignorance us foreign Muay Thai fighters wear as trophies, it's our tattoos which earn us a lot of respect from down at the lowest peasant right up to the royal family. Muay Thai is the art of Kings, they say, and I'm proud of who I am and what I do; that's my medal of honor in Thailand.

And no, I won't tolerate people who will not tolerate me. I should never be asked to; no one should. So **** Japan.

Tenchu,

How are you connected to Japan, and what inspires you to post here?

Door's over there, Tenchu.

The country isn't rejecting you. Onsens are.

You obviously didn't read my posts why you wouldn't be allowed into an onsen. It doesn't matter that you are not yakuza. Do I need to copy-paste my words for a third time?

Japan is a country of a homogeneous bloodline (in their eyes). As much as you want Japan to be Thai, it is not the same. There are no dark-skinned Japanese and light-skinned Japanese in the same way as other parts of SE Asia. There is just Japanese and non-Japanese. It is not the skin color that is precious but the the gift of life from your parents. This is what you, Tenchu, are not understanding. And I wouldn't expect you to. You have never lived in japan or dealt with Japanese people. So you apply your experiences of BS in Thai with how people are in Japan.

And that is why Thai is the place for you and Japan isn't. That doesn't make Japanese people a**holes, unless you are so narrow-minded that your way is the only way.

No one in Japan is waiting on the tarmac for your arrival, so i am sure the attitude is mutual.

Sir, its not that you are a yakuza, but that that is the only standard they can set to keep real yakuza members out. Were they to let you, me, or any other tattooed person in they would have no social (or legal?) footing to keep the yakuza out anymore, unless they decided you need to clear a criminal background check first.

Its unfortunate, yes, but racist? No. Racist would be saying "No foreigners with tattoos are allowed. Only tattooed Japanese".

Are you trying to open the door to moderator?

Going through all your posts clearly show you endulging in moderation. Why?

I agree; In my mind the 'no tattoos' rule in Onsen's is a business policy akin to 'No shirt no service'. I wouldn't walk into the Hyatt Grand's restaurant in shorts and flip-flops and then accuse them of being mindless racists if they refused me service. Same with onsen and tattoos. Other places will serve you; this rule is not a universal edict for exclusion. The problem is that tattoo's can't be removed easily, or hidden, especially in a place where you're removing your clothing.

Besides, as Tain said, it's NOT just Japan. Many cultures have histories in which tattoos and scarification are associated most strongly with violent rebels or out-right criminals and there IS no history of spiritual or cultural tattooing. In the UK, the opinion tends to be that it's the pursuit of the 'lower classes', even if that's untrue in practice. At the end of the day, in that respect, the consensus is that 'nice boys and girls' don't get tattoos.

Going through your posts clearly shows you "endulging" in being JF's Quagmire. Why?

That sounds like an idle threat, but if not I have one parting word of advice, Tenchu. While you are avoiding Japan, be sure you avoid all Islamic and Hebrew communities. Their prohibitions on tattoos or any other permanent defacing of the skin is far stricter than that of Japan or most western countries. It might be wise to stay in your own little corner of the world.

I would be safer in the streets of Egypt without a veil than I would be without clothing covering my tats.

Sorry guys, I didn't mean for this to start any debate or anything. Saying that, I believe a round of applause is in order for MMM and everyone else. I've never seen anyone get into such a heated debate and keep their cool so well.

Onsens are not roman public baths. They have a specific reason for existing and that reason is not to clean yourself.
An Onsen is an environment to relax, unwind and take the mineral rich waters while admiring the beautiful surroundings.

I nor Japanese people that pay to enjoy an onsen want to look at your family or other images you feel attached to. That is what photo albums are for.
I am sure you would not like your local beauty spot or favorite place spoiled by something you don't like, Japanese tourists for example!

People who go to onsens will take offence at having to look at your markings, as they will detract from the experience they might have travelled many miles for.

Feel free to come to Japan, I see many tourists with tattoos. You just will never see inside an onsen unless you hire a ryokan room with private onsen.

All of these people have tattoo's and I bet they love them,

20 Tattoos You Don't Want To Get (Especially If You're A Lady) | Stupid Idiots

But would I want one of these people in my local onsen? NO!

It's all well and good to say someone else is a dick as you watch them get shoved out the door... try fitting in those shoes, you'll understand what Western culture was supposed to be about.

We didn't work so hard to build these countries just to shove ourselves down the toilet for some stupid brainwashing anime or disgusting bukkake obsession.

It was supposed to be about equality and acceptence.

There's nothing wrong with me.

The last two were pretty nice imo, but im not Japanese sooooo.

I went to school with a few kids who thought it was cool to get a swastika on their forehead and neck, where are they now?
I have walked in many shoes and yours are not special! If you have a valid reason to get marked then good for you. Otherwise you are the dick shoved out the door. In Japan you are the dick shoved out the door while me and my buddies laugh at you.

People like you don't build countries, people like you are the reason that countries fail. People like me build countries and are fricking proud of it. People like me love to live in Japan. Japan is a fricking proud country and the people are at least fricking proud enough to discriminate against people like you.
Go and show your fricking tatts to people who care. You will never get any respect here and by your attitude, anywhere on this side of the planet.

Well its been ages since I've actually been on this forum, but when I came across this topic I simply had to say something.

First of all, I live in a middle class city in Canada with upwards of about 220,000 people. If I were to walk around the city all day, I bet ANYTHING at least 85% of people have tattoos (at least one). Why? Because tattoos are socially accepted here.

Now, I don't have any tattoos personally, I'm NOT against them, I think they can look very beautiful and very nice on some people. I don't have any because tattoos, while beautiful are too permanent for me, and I like change.

I have two friends who we'll call.. Bob & Jane, who are real, but these are not they're real names.. who are covered in tattoos. Bob literally has them everywhere, and Jane wants them everywhere.

Both of them want to go to Japan, and neither of them will listen to me when I say, "You won't be allowed in everywhere/Accepted everywhere" they simply think that I'm over reacting.

I have two friends who live in Japan, one who loves her life there, and one who hates it so much, she's actually leaving. I've never been to Japan myself (not yet). However, having two close friends who live there, I hear all about the drama they go through, as foreigners point of facet.

If you look up tattoos in Japan, on Google, or Wiki, you'll see that it does say that tattoos are generally becoming more acceptable in general society. If you look at Japanese celebrities such as ; Miyavi, Kyo & Karuo (from Dir en Grey), Namie Amuro & Lina Aishima (Adult film actress) you'll see that YES the Japanese do get tattoos.

HOWEVER.. it does NOT matter what race you are, you will not get into most Onsens, and I know of many other places such as bars & gyms that won't allow tattooed people who's tattoos are showing. It's not racism, it's culture.

Racism, is like saying "No foreigners with tattoos allowed, tattooed Japanese welcome". The Japanese saying "we don't want tattooed people in here" (wherever here may be) is not implying that you're a criminal, or that you disrespect anyone, it's to keep their business, family and friends away from unneeded strife.

If I owned a use car dealership, and someone came in with a car they bought 1 year ago and said "The breaks are starting to go, I want a new car" and I said "Sure! Why not?!" and gave the guy a new car, I'd have to do it for everyone who came in about the same problem. This is the same for the Japanese and Onsens, if they were to let you in simply because "Well I'm Caucasian, therefore can't possibly be a Yakuza!" then they'd have an uproar on they hands for every other tattooed person they denied access to their Onsen.. not just Yakuza members.

Tattoos are not seen by everyone in Japan as horrible things, that are always disrespectful, as I said earlier tattoos among Japanese celebrities are becoming more common. I have a video about Shibuya, and in the video there's a young Japanese guy, with piercings, tattoos and pink spikey hair.

It's just that, and I can't stress this enough.. Japan went through YEARS of tattoos only being accepted with Yakuza members, and it will take a very long time before Japan looks at tattoos and says "Whatever".. it may never happen.

If you're a African-American and go to a rural part of Japan, or a Caucasian female with blonde hair.. people will stare at you because some Japanese have only ever seen this on their televisions.. so if you go to Japan and have tattoos, and people stare at you, it can be one (or two) of three things ;

1) That person's never seen a tattoo on someone before;
2) That person's never seen a tattoo on a foreigner before;
and/or
3) That person doesn't like tattoos. (NOT because they think you're a criminal, it may just be a personal preference)

Anyway, I've gone on enough, and I should wrap this up, and prepare for my lashing, because I'm sure, as logical as my post is, I'm sure someone strongly disagrees with me..