Remembering the Kanji by James Heisig
 

Hey guys I have a question about the book Remembering the Kanji by James Heisig. It comes in three volumes, what does it teach in each volume? I ordered volume 1. from person I remember hearing that in bol 1 of doesn't teach readings but only meanings. If that's true, what do the teach in 2 and 3?

Thanks for your help.

Ack ack ack

Avoid this book....

I posted a long time ago about why it is NOT a good learning aid, but can`t locate the exact post. It teaches you meanings of individual kanji, completely out of context and very out of date... It also screws up the way you split up the character into radicals, and drives me crazy with it`s fake etymology.

I really REALLY dislike that series of books. It`s only good if you want to be able to pick out random characters and say "Oh yeah, that one all by itself means such-and-such, but who knows what it means in a word or in modern context as it`s never used alone!"

Id have to agree, learning a kanji without knowing its reading is pretty pointless in my opinion.

What happens when you come to write something for example?

I recomend
Basic Kanji Book: v. 1: Chieko Kano, Yuri Shimizu, Hiroko Takenaka: Amazon.co.uk: Books

How bizzare... A Japanese friend bought this series for his English gf. He said it was an excellent series for people that really want to learn the language, rather than learning how to communicate. Lets face it, most people that speak a second language or third, only know how to get by, yet they still say that they speak the language. I was told by my friend that this series is total rubbish if and only if you're looking to communicate and get by.

I'm learning a little Mandarin right now, and my flatmate, he who is teaching me, is teaching me the characters before I learn the pronounciation. It seems to be a similar method to this book (except I don't learn hundreds or chars before I learn the pronounciation, I learn 10 to 20 chars at a time), and personally, I think it's working.

Unfortunately, if your friend says it is a good way to "really" know the language... Then they don`t really know the language themselves.

It uses fake etymology to teach odd little stories so that you link the character to a specific single meaning... About half of which isn`t even the common meaning, and about 10% of being a meaning that only applies in some exotic circumstance.

In my linguistics course - in Japan, in a Japanese university - it was used as an example of how NOT to teach, and an example of the horrors of someone writing something for appeal and ignoring all levels of accuracy. The etymology professors were literally choking and gagging at it, and some of the stories given were down right awful and occasionally racist.

I wouldn't be able to comment on that as I don't speak Japanese and it would be pretty silly of me to say to someone Japanese, "hey, you don't really know the Japanese language because someone told me the book you recommended was a load of *insert word*"

Thats not what shes saying..

re-read the post and go figure, then come back.

nevermind, ill simplfy it for you..

its like telling a blind man the taxi he took this morning was yellow. he doesnt know what colour it was, it might have been black, it might have been a number of different colours with yellow being one of them. but he doesn't know, the blind man just has to take your word for it.

hiesieg's method works like that...

it shows 山　Mountain, instead of　山　 > やま　> mountain.

You can argue back all you like.. but if you were learning a language, would you wanna go in blind?

That makes absolutely no sense at all... Who says you need to learn the "pronounciation"/"spoken" at the same time? Chinese people generally find Japanese much easier to learn than a westerner. A chinese person can read most of the Kanji, I mean most, because some Kanji changed it's meaning from Chinese to Japanese. Being able to read and understand before you speak it isn't a handicap if you're aiming to "learn" the language.

I'm sure you didn't understand most of that, so let me give you an example.

A child looks at something and knows what it is. Later on, he learns what the word is for that something. Same principle. You look at a char and know what it is, later on, you learn how to say it!:cool:

Let's keep the tone civil, gentlemen.

I agree with this. And it really applies when the kanji is used for other words, which are fairly common

見る　=　see

OK, that's nice to know. But then, I'm going along and see:

見せる

Well, I can assume it has something to do with seeing, I guess. And...oh no...I don't even know the reading for 見. I can't even look it up!

And how would you go about typing the kanji if you don't know the readings? Copy and paste? When I learn a kanji, I learn it inside and out, not just one English meaning. I want to be able to actually know what it means in context when I read it. I want to be able to use it when I'm saying something. Etc.

Thankyou :)

Do you also use the basic kanji method?

My method is pretty much my own. I play The Kanji Game in my spare time to come to recognize kanji before I learn them (which helps me a lot when I do actually learn them). When I'm ready to learn a new set of characters, I use a kanji chart by grade to determine an order. I look up the stroke order and practice drawing it, and then I use four or five reliable sources to look up readings, meanings, and uses in context.

I admit that it's a method that probably wouldn't work for most people, as there aren't any tricks. But it has yet to fail me.

I have to say i would highly recommend it in my opinion.

You just have to remember that it won't and never claims to teach you how to read Japanese.
From what i gather from reading the book is that it is only meant to help you memorize how to write and recognize characters through use of stories and keywords.

I can only talk about the first book and my experience since i am not really interested in the 2nd and 3rd books.

I can currently only recall how to write roughly 500 separate kanji from memory, but so far i have noticed it's much easier for me to learn the kanji compounds for words where i recognize the kanji and can peice together keywords that already make sense to me than those i don't.
It's not a bad thing that you don't learn the readings right away either, infact so far i've found it easier to learn this way (Yes i have attempted to learn the readings and kanji all in one go and it did not work for me - There were just simply too many readings for me to memorize at once and things like on and yumi or w/e its called readings confuse me)

For example 夢 was given the keyword "Dream" so when i saw it i already had a picture in my head of what it could mean, and so when i found out the reading to be ゆめ it was all i had to remember since i had already learned how to write it.

maybe a better example would be 外国人/外人
The keywords were:
外 - Outside
国 - Country
人 - Person

Now just because you don't know the readings it doesn't mean that you can't still get a good idea of what it could mean.
Once you have found out the reading all you have to remember is that a 外国人/外人 is an "Outside country Person/Outside Person" more simply put, a Foreigner... Simple

Anyway, i would say if you are not in a class then atleast give it a go and see how you get on.
If however you are in a class then it's probably best to just stick with whatever they give you.

ooo i know some of those from that chart :D

Thats pretty much the basic kanji method but your making it more difficult for yourself.. which i suppose is good because it will stay better.

How long have you studied japanese? Im somewhere around entering my second year..

Are you reading the chart the modern way or traditonal way?

If your asking me then i've been studying (If you can call lazing around watching tv and playing games studying) for slightly over 2 months now.

Edit: Post edited by shadow, not talkin' to me xD

One of the first things you did when you joined JF was tell me how long you have studied japanese :p

you wanted to help in my thread remember?

I know the first twelve from that chart.

It's basically my all around study method. I came up with it back in high school with I did Academic Decathlon. It takes dedication and willpower, and you also kind of have to like studying. XD I wouldn't recommend it for anyone that has a different way that works for them.

Not long at all. About...three months. I've been told I started kanji too early, but my focus is mainly on reading, so it was kind of essential. And kanji are my favorite things to study.

Traditional, I imagine. If you mean top to bottom, right to left? That seems to be the way it's set up, and the first-grade equivalent of it was clearly set up that way.

(PS, perhaps we should take this to PM? So as to avoid further usurping this thread?)

We may if you feel its nessessary but, i think its relevant to aid studies of others.

I assumed thats the way you used the chart. You can tell your studying hard because I'm in my second year of a more casual form of study and you supass me in every way!

oh btw, according to AJATT, its never too early to learn kanji.

congrats dude.

Alrighty, then.

Possibly every way except for the most important - grammar. Argh, grammar kicks my butt. I can decode sentences, but I can barely form the most basic of sentences. I haven't yet found a source that teaches it the way I want to learn it.

You know, I've never really checked out AJATT. I've heard so many mixed reviews about it. Though, from glancing at it, it seems like I ought to take a better look into it. I don't want to have the language down in 18 months, but it does kind of sound like my learning style.

his idea won't work for everybody but he does make alot of sense. and yes it does sound like you :p the only downsides to his site are that its like navigating through spaghetti. Also, he rambles forever before he gets into the point of each post.

I wish i had the time to prepare such things..

Well, thanks for all your input guys. I realize I may have made a bad choice in the book ordered, but what's done is done and I can't turn back. Also, no one has answered my question. I already know volume 1 only teaches meaning, but since volum 1 covers all 2000+ basic kanji I'm assuming volume 2 and 3 teach readings and compounds, no?

I'm looking through, and I love the learning by sentences idea. I think it's the key to grammar for me. But of course, it took me a good fifteen minutes to find what I wanted! XD

I'm sorry but I've no idea. I've only seen the first book, in my university library.

Volume 2 teaches on-yomi and kun-yomi readings. Volume 3 teaches an additional 1000 non-jouyou kanji.

I won't respond to every post individually, but I will say that working through Remembering the Kanji (at least volume 1) is very worthwhile. No, it doesn't teach you readings or compounds, but it does drastically reduce the time it takes to look up a kanji, and it gives you the ability to quickly break down any kanji into its component parts.

Thanks :D At least I got one positive response ;-)

And what do you mean by (at least volume 1) is very worthwhile. Your saying Volume 2/3 Do not teach the readings effectively?

My sister, who's in Japan right now, really recommended Remembering the Kanji for me. She knows about 800 so far, and she said it really helped her.

Like has been said the first book is definatly worth it thats for sure.
If you can't get the information you want here then perhaps you would find more information about the 2nd and 3rd books from the remembering the kanji forums :) Reviewing the Kanji Forums It's worth a look around atleast

People are somehow missing what I am saying.

I`m NOT criticizing it because it doesn`t teach the reading at the same time. I`ve never commented on that part of it at all.

I`m criticizing it because A) It ignores the actual rules of Kanji. B) It makes up etymology that will screw you up in the end C) It uses definitions that seem to be randomly picked from a dictionary and that often aren`t in use.
Is it a "good" way to recognize some Kanji? Maybe so. I know that I actually remember some of the more offensive stories (although I hear these days the new version uses less offensive versions).

That doesn`t mean it will offer long term benefit once you get to the point that you actually could figure characters out if you REALLY knew the rules. In fact, using the method does indeed make it close to impossible to look up a new Kanji in a normal dictionary as he splits them in a unique way that doesn`t go along with any of the rules actually used by anyone else.

MAYBE MAYBE if you SERIOUSLY stick with it and finish it 100% you might find benefit, and can possibly overcome the weird handicaps you`re going to have from using the method.

Sadly though, I have yet to meet anyone who did... Just a lot of people who get incredibly frustrated once they realize that it isn`t going to actually help them with Japanese language - only sight reading of some kanji out of context.

Of course, if your only goal is to say "I can read *insert number* kanji!", and communication/comprehension is way down there on the priorities then go for it.

Only Volume 2 teaches the readings, and no, it doesn't teach them very effectively. It's more of a dry list of facts than a book to be read, lacking the clever mnemonics that makes RtK 1 invaluable. Even so, learning the readings in isolation isn't particularly useful, since many of the kanji you learn in RtK only appear in compounds. Learn the meaning of a kanji, learn vocabulary words, context and experience will help you connect the two on your own.

Volume 3 teaches some useful kanji that you will need to know eventually if you want to be able to read Japanese at an adult level, but due to its advanced nature, you probably won't need to learn the knowledge contained therein for quite some time.

So, for the time being, Volume 1 is the only book that's required.

EDIT: To avoid double posting, I'd like to add the following points:

* Thanks to Lucas28 for linking to the Koohii forum. Not only is it helpful when working through RtK, but it houses a very active and intelligent community that can answer any Japanese language question.

* Nyororin, although you are significantly more skilled in all things Japanese than I am, I feel that I must counteract your assertion that RtK provides no benefits. I'll be honest, it doesn't teach you much; it helps you look up kanji faster and break them down into primitives. It also removes the psychological barrier to studying kanji that is seen in many learners. Whether or not these benefits are worth the time spent on the book is up to the individual.

I'm not sure what you mean by "false etymology". The book selects a list of primitives, and assigns mnemonic devices to them; yes, these are arbitrary, but they are consistent, and they assist you greatly in identifying kanji. Isn't that all that matters? If you have a copy of the book handy, could you point out some specific examples you take issue with?

As for people never finishing RtK completely, I must point out that there are quite a few people who have: visit the Koohii forum to meet them. Perhaps they can articulate the benefits of RtK better than I can.

OK, after reading some more recent posts, I see that RtK simply isn't made for learning kanji - it doesn't seem that it's made to be used on its own. While I don't think that using tricks someone else came up with to remember the kanji is a good thing (I'm just old-fashioned), I'll give it merit in that if it works for some people, that's good.

The primitives the book uses are NOT the primitives any other book uses. Some overlap, but many do not. This makes it harder in the end to look up things in a regular dictionary. I see no benefit in learning to split a kanji up in a way that is pretty much useless in any other context. It`s like... Instead of learning to spell words in English, you split them into little chunks without learning the spelling that normally would be used. Sure, it might help you at some point, but it`s going to be a weird crutch later on and make things harder in the long run.

As for the false etymology... It drives me crazy when someone who has leafed through that book comes up with "Oh, that kanji was formed from this and this and used to mean such-and-such (quoting a story from the book)" when the actual etymology is incredibly different.

Maybe that`s just a linguist thing though that normal people don`t care about.

I don`t have the book handy, would have to spend an hour tracking it down in the closet, so will have to put specific examples at a later date...

As for people finishing/not finishing it - I`m sure there are people out there who have. I just haven`t personally met any.

Nyororin, by false etymology, do you mean this for example? In the book, it said one of the kanji for "I" was the following. 吾. As you know, this is made of ;

五 = 5
口 = mouth

and putting them together, gives you = 吾　

He said in the book to think of your head and imagine your mouth to be a hole. Your head has 5 holes; nostrels, ears and mouth. The way to come up with this kanji is to think of this. As far as I remember, it sounded like this is how the kanji was created in the first place. However, it'd be pretty radical to believe such a story.

By the way, I saw this more than a year ago. His method is surprisingly effective are "remembering" a kanji. The way I see it, is that it seems to be pretty good to remember how to remember vocab (I know this isn't the right word, but I can't think of the word right now).

I'm surprised that people really believe that these kanji were created the way described in the book. I see the description as a method to remember. I use a similar method to remember things in Math and Physics. I imagine, sometimes ridiculous things, and I remember whatever it is I need to remember!

but thats my point.

I'd rather have the the readings pop up than "5 mouths" and think.. crap.

I don't think you're understanding me. My problem there is how to describe Vocob, nouns, adjectives etc etc in one word. I don't know if there is a word for it in English.

I remember perfectly well, that 吾 is a way of saying "I"

I don't think your understanding me.

What is 吾 in kana, noodle?

That`s an excellent example that strongly illustrates one of the points I made... It`s not in common use in this day and age.
Good luck finding it being used to say "I" in any modern context. In fact, try and find some examples outside of a name where it would carry no real meaning at all.

I have a book call "A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters". I think it's fairly close to Remembering the Kanji. I don't find it all that bad but I have found other ways to learn kanji that are more effective.

On the side note, if you have the book, take a look at kanji 124, on page 35. Check out the example. :eek: They used the 'N' word for the example 黒人.
Hehe :D You have to see it to believe it.

Who cares? Now that you know that the Heisig keyword for 吾 is "I", you can look it up, and from there paste it into any one of the multitudes of free electronic dictionaries to get its meanings, readings, etc. There are other side benefits to doing RtK, but that's really the main thing you get out of it, in my opinion; a super-efficient kanji dictionary. Sure, only beginners are going to need to constantly look up kanji like this, but hey, the book is aimed at beginners.

And they'll have learned the Heisig keyword for every kanji long before they're learned the meanings and readings from the traditional rote method.

In the book it doesn't trick you in to believing that this is the main kanji for I. It actually says it is "one" of the ways to write I. Unless you're saying there is no need to learn things that aren't commonly used, there is nothing wrong with learning it.

At uni, I study French literature language. The French they use will only ever be found in literature and is of absolute no use for me in the real world. I am a science student, but I do not complain about learning this obscure, rarely used French. General knowledge is great, and learning different ways of saying/writing the same thing when learning a language is only a positive thing, in my opinion!

And I guess this is what my friend said about learning the language properly. I guess he meant learning kanji that isn't used commonly, yet still part of the language.

SHADOW, try reading before you comment on things. As others have said, this book doesn't pretend it will teach you anything other than the meaning of words. And like the example I gave you, a child looks at something and knows what it is before he/she can say the word or read the word or write the word! It's a similar concept. Learning one thing at a time!

Man, I did start quite an argument haven't I..

Everybody has their own way of learning! Some ways maybe be better then others for some. Why don't you understand that? After hearing everybody's comments and seeing part of the book, I see no reason why this is not an effective way to get a jump start on kanji.

Mods if you can, please close this topic, it has only led to nonsense and arguing. People take things so seriously..