Karate: Effectiver? How does it rank against other arts?
 

I only did two years of Shotokan Karate so I'm kind of curious about what Karateka and others feel about Karate.

Some questions I wanted to cover:
1) Has karate lost effectiveness over time or is it better today?
2) How does it compare to original Chinese boxing forms?
3) What do Karateka think of TKD? are the basics barrowed from Karate?
4) the pros and cons of karate Vs other arts?

I do Iaido (perfecting set kata with a katana). I reckon I'd do pretty well against a karate expert ;) :mtongue:

I did Muay Thai and a bit of Kyokushin Karate.

Kyokushin Karate was just as intense as my Muay Thai trainings and I would say just as effective.

I am in Goju myself, and I did alomst 10 years of TKD and earned a 3rd den in TKD, but will be switching to Shito ryu sometime next year

1. I strongly believe the art evolved overtime, for better or for worse, thats totally your individual opiion, I don't think its as effective anymore as it removed a lot of dangerous and deadly component from the original art, but its more scientific now
2. Traditional Okinawan karate was influenced by various Chinese Art, i went up against people from different style in the past, and i say its 50/50, but in an all out sparring, i found Karate to be more effective against most chinese art. I have yet to go all out with a Wing Tsun guy, but Wing Tsun looks very effective against Karate
3. Being both a Karateka and a TKD guy, I'd say TKD borrowed the training and belt system from Karate, but a lot of the kicks are NOT from karate. Though, after so many years of TKD, i hate to say it, but a lot of TKD techniques looks great, but are totally useless, Karate technique are more objective focused - to hit or to defend..
4. Don't have an answer

Interesting, i put a lot of thoughts into the use of fixed movement lately. I remember that when Bruce Lee "invented" JKD, he suggest that a martial art is a set of theoratical movement, but it shouldn't be fixed movement. My brother in law and good friend are also in Wing Tsun, and they have demonstrated how they use these "fixed" movement to fight and it seems effective. In karate, the practice of ippon also is a form of fixed motion, and the objective is to use our muscle memory to react, and i have seen this in practice while practicing with Dai-sensei, he only use the perry and push techinque from Shisochin and it was quite effective, but then, when we spar, how much of this muscle memory can we actually use and use it effectively? That i don't know, but so far, i hate to say it, despite all the training, when i spar, there is a lot of technique involved, but none of which are from any fixed posture training... i probably need more training :P

chiuchimu
 

1.
I do not lose the effect.
But it is said that judo deteriorated by having become the Olympics item.
（I varied from bujutu to sports）

2.
It is said to be traditional martial arts Te and the fusion of the kung fu of Okinawa Karate.

3.
WHY "KUMDO" TELLS A LIE ? Related words : martial art taekwondo HAPKIDO haidon gumdo

The taekwondo is 50 years since it is made.
The taekwondo was a tool of the politics.

Korean sports and art are always haunted by political messages.

4.
The comparison is meaningless.



For a martial art, much misunderstanding infiltrates people under the influence such as movies.

As an example.
Nuntyaku became famous by Bruce Lee, but it is a weapon of Karate of Okinawa, and it is originally harness.

By the movie, SAI is used as a weapon of the homicide. It is originally a weapon for exclusive use of the blow without the casualties power that a Chinese Buddhist monk used for the guards.

At one time I wanted to do Laido too. Kendo( one year when I was a kid) to me lost most of its focus-we never even touch a Katana. I heard the sword tip is much faster than any human hand or foot. The only Laindo place is too far away.


Muay Thai many years, trained under Malaipet. I'm bios toward Thai boxing. We have Kyokushinkai at Japanese community center. I like how they can throw a high roundhouse kick at close range-something we don't do in Muay Thai. But the lack of face contact and clinch work I think seriously limits the art, at least that's how it seems to me.



I found your post most interesting and high lighted some insightful parts. On the subject of 'fixed' movements. I think martial arts and virtually every skill is a form of 'fixed' movement or muscle memory.

Just a note, when i said not as effective, i wasn't comparing it to other arts, but from the original Karate that I know of. Again, i think they removed some of the more dangeours component, but comparing to other art, I don't know how effective it is, i attended some professional and semi-professional tournment, the results against other art is average

@fatalbert130
Good point about nunchaku. I've seen Chinese Boxing books include the nunchaku and Tonfa as traditional Chinese Kung Fu weapons. Things do get mixed up sometimes.



@Godwine
What is your opinion of "leathal techiniques"? I mean like those Din Mak points karate got from Chinese boxing. First , let me say I'm a bit skeptical. Coming from a Muay Thai( some BJJ ) back ground, I understand that martial arts can kill people. A person can be killed by an elbow at the back of the neck or skull. A person can be killed by throwing him down so his head smashes against something hard, or Choking someone to death. But beyond the obvious that are banned from profession sports like MMA, I don't think Din Mak really exist. What is your experience on the subject? Is Din Mak only taught to advanced karateka? Or is the subject gone from modern karate?

To me the technique of dim mak does exist, just not the way how its being portrayed in movies and tv shows. We have a lot of pressure point and meridian in our body, certain tendon or nerve root could cause prolonged numbness, so i am sure if you strike it hard enough and accurate enough, it can do some serious damaage, but not to a point where the guy will die instantly or his head explode, but maybe to paralyze a certain part temporarily. My accupunture therapist used a techniue with his needle that completely disabled lower body movement temporairly so that he can treat a sciatica that I had. If someone has strong enough finger and insane accuracy can stab me really really hard at the same place, i am sure it can do some crazy damage....

As far as I know the practice of dim mak does not exist in karate, not nowadays anyays. Some discipline practice the spear hard (stabbing with the index and middle finger) on the makiwara, but i don't think the use of strenghtening the fingers in Karate has anything to do with Dim Mak. Dim mak require precise accuracy and power, the practice in Karate produces the power, but not the accuracy

Dai sensei always said - master the basic and you master the art, and to us the basic are the few strikes and kick, and some very very limited grappling

I am going to aruge the tonfa cliam a little, though i do agree that the Nunchuku was originated from Okinawa. Tonfa was originated either from China or India.. its one of the more original "weapons" the monk practice with when they needed something for the purpose of self defense. I strongly believe this cliam, because if you look at both Kobudo and Karate (Rarely in Karate), the use of Kama, Sai, Bo and Nunchuku is very very mature, but the use of the tonfa is very limited.

The reason why it is said that you don't hit the face with the hands in Kyokushin Kumite is for two reasons.

In Kumite we fight bare-fisted and a full force clenched fist to the head will injure your hand as much as the opponents head unless it is dead on target. The hand is full of fragile bones that can break easily and the human head is surprisinly harder than it looks.

The second reason is that you don't want a dojo full of braindead students. Muay Thai is a sport and a way of fighting and I respect it a lot. Karate is a way of fighting that also has a sport element but (as you probably already know) Karate also emphasises health and good character aswell. Repeated hitting to the head does damage to your brain... especially bare-fisted. Of course kicking to the head is allowed... but it happens infrequently enough for it to be OK I think.

I studied Kenpo karate years ago when I was a high school student, and then I switched to Kendo, eventually reaching "shodan". As a method of improving strength and teaching mental discipline, I found both to be very useful, but as an actual tool of self-defense, either art could only be described as "so-so". Their main benefit (particularly my kendo training) stressed mental alertness and to be aware of one's surroundings.

Martial arts are generally just that, they are "arts". And though they are well-suited to many real-life situations, they have their limits. I spent 6 years in a Army Ranger unit, and I learned much more there about fighting than I did in martial arts classes. In societies where people are generally unarmed, unarmed combat is a useful skill, but in places were people are often armed (such as much of the US), their usefulness is more limited.

I learned that the most efficient form of self-defense was simply to carry a gun or a knife, and when I lived in America I had a license that allowed me to carry both. A gun is the kind of deterrent which will usually stop any attack cold, without a punch, kick, or hold being necessary. In 99% of cases, you needn't even fire it, simply showing that you have a gun will stop an attack. The true essence of the martial arts is economy of effort, economy of movement, and minimal personal risk, and a simple weapon offers all of these.

That's not to say that the martial arts are useless, they are better than nothing when push comes to shove, they taught me to be prepared at all times, and to not pull any stops when it came to defending myself. And the most efficient way to defend myself was simply to keep myself armed.

Yeah, that's why MMA uses gloves now. It started barefisted but people were injuring their hands. Now the elbow...there's something that can take a lot of punishment.


People in my gym aren;t that brain dead. I'm fine. watch, 2+2=5 right?:D

I hear you.
Good reasons for not punching the face but I do think they affect how one fights.
but I've seen the Kyukushinkai Championships several times(if that's what they are called) and I can't help but come to the conclusion that Bare-fist no face affects how they fight. Like a common strategy is to push forward while throwing fist and low kicks. But, I never had a street fight with a Kyokushinkan Karateka so I can't really talk of their effectiveness. They should hold gloved matches separate from the bar-knuckled ones. Also, It would be nice to watch a good Kyokushinkan guy in MMA, see how he works out.


@Godwine
I always thought the Tonfa was Okinawan. I read in books several times.
But your logic is sound. I wonder if that spear hand method really can happen? Like spearing your hand into someones body. If, possible, that would be a deadly technique. Is there any record of someone mastering it?

Yeah you have a point there...

If you fought in the street like you fought in kumite, you might get caught out. We are taught to hit places like the groin and the throat in the dojo.. but we never practice that in kumite.

Us too, I am positive that every single dojo will teach about the effectivenss of hitting places like the groan and such, we even have a technique that uses the spear hand to cut the eyes

As far as the spear hand is concern, it wasn't meant to penetrate the body, not as far as I know anyways, its meant to be a technique that is suppose to generate a concentrated central point of contact, i don't know of anyone who mastered it enough to be able to drive it into someon'es body, but i know of one person who uses it along the center line (groin, celiac plexus, etc)...

^ My couch told me that long time ago, Muay Thai allowed groin kicks and headbutts too. The groin kick wasn't that effective in the ring because Thai boxers at that time( I don't know if they still do) used steel groin cups. These cups had ridged reinforcements. Full power kick to a cup like that would be painful for the kicker. you can still buy the steel cups but I doubt professionals use them. Why would anyone want one of those steel ones when there are the new high tech plastic ones that can disperse the shock.

On ,sparing. My Shotokan Sensei was a bit odd. Most Dojos practice their techiniques by the book: low deep mountain climbing stance, fist cocked at waist. etc.. But when time to spare, all correct forms are thrown out the window and everyone looks like they are kick boxing: doing the boxers shuffle, hands high, throwing jabs etc... My dojo, we spared as we did practice and Katas. Our sparing sessions were to look just like our Katas. I'm not sure if that was an effective way to spare, but boy did we look great doing it that way.

I assume you meant the chamber position when you said "Fist cokced at waist". It really depend on the type of sparring you do, we do some fix drills where we do use all the technique straing from the kata, the blocks usus a standard shikodachi, and all technique are properly executed as though we are doing the katas. THere are 2 form of this type of sparring for us: Kakomi Kumite and Renzuku Kumite. WHere when we do free sparring, we turn into that kickboxing form as you pointed out. We did the same thing when i was in TKD, TKD has something call 2 step or 3 step sparring, where we use kata based technique to fight, its fixed drills,but as soon as we spar, everyone turn into a kick boxer. My only complain with TKD is that, the sensei taught us all kind of kicks, but he failed to mention that some kick are totally useless because kicking a person is different from kicking a bag: People move, the block, and they fight back. THats why I am more in love with Karate now, because, i think what my sensei teaches make sense, of course, i got the added edge as my kicks are very different from everyone else thanks to TKD

^Godwin

Yeah I agree that TKD kicks look great but many don't translate into practical fighting. Three in mind are: Axe kick, Spinning round house, and hook kick.

1) Axe kick: to go way high like that waste time and leaves the guy really vulnerable. It can break the collar bone but so can a bare fist or elbow shot which are much faster and safer to apply.

2) Spinning roundhouse: I don't get this one at all, spin, then do a round house. Why? Spinning takes time and exposes ones back. then all you do is throw a roundhouse? A Muay Thai Roundhouse can break a Femur or Shin bone without a spin.

3) Hook Kick: There is just no power in the kick and its easy to counter-step right in and throw a cross. I would go for the spinning hook kick instead, Its dangerous to try but at least it can knock someone out if it lands.

TKD does have a few good kicks though. I like the spinning back kick. Lots of power and people actually get caught by it. I also like the TKD regular roundhouse to the head. It's of the snapping type so its pretty fast. Doesn't have the power of a Muay Thai round kick but a kick to the head doesn't have to be that powerful to knock someone out or make them confused.

I usually use round house and front kick. I agree with your assessment of the spinning round house, i never find it effective at all.. somewhat agree to the axe kick,but axe kick is actually one of my signature, and it did help me winning a couple of fight in the past.. hook kick are very very effective, i knock a few guys out with it.. hardly anyone just use it, most pepole usually use a step in to lead to the... it has the element of a suprise, which is why i find it useful... spinning hooks are good too, i find it on the slow side, but i use it too...

^Do you have a strong front kick? mine is weak.

In fact, the front kick is called a push kick in MT because that what it amounts to. Thing for me is, if Iraise my kicking leg high, then snap out with the lower leg, there is just no power, it turns into a thrust or push. How do you do the front kick?

DISAGREE :) A push pick and a front kick is in fact 2 different thing... one is meant to make just an instantaneous contact, strong sharp concentraged contact, you kick with the ball of your feet or if you want to kick the chin you kick with your heels. A push kick is a push kick, you use it to push your oponent away, i don't think it was meant to break anything

at least thats my understanding.....

my front kick is knees up first, then kick out and pull back.....my push kick goes knee up first, then i kick but my feet will hold briefly, my supporting feet will push and the kick feet will push.. hard to explain, its jsut differet

I can make a snappy front kick. But my experience is that you have to get the distance and timing spot on for it to work so I rarely do damage with it.

I use the front kick like a jab occasionally. Keeps my opponent away and hopefully set up something more powerful behind it if he starts reacting predictably to it.

^ I can't get any snap in my front kick. I have a wicked round kick but my front kicks turn into a teep.

I think the secret is to try not to raise the knee to high. Like trying to smash the ball of the foot directly from the ground in a straight line to the target. Try to make it feel like your throwing a cross, but with your feet.

A damaging front kick would be a great addition to a Muay Thai arsenal.

Though do keep in mind, karate front kick and tkd front kick are differet, though they are executed in similar ways, TKD uses the ball of the feet, karate likes to aim high for the chin, and we use the heel to kick. Honestly, while I find tkd has a lot of useless kick, the ones that i would use compliments karate very very well, simply because style of Karate I am in really dont use too much kicks, so there is the added element of suprise, and most people i spar with does not expect a kick like that at all :) ..

oh and another kick i like from TKD, is the twist kick... works very very well if you lead with with a fake round house

In what situations would you use a twist kick?

What part of the body would you aim for?

I can't imagine it doing much damage to an opponent unless you were lucky/extremely skillful and scored a solar plexus shot or hit the right part of the nose.

I usually aim for the rib cage or the head... if its the rib cage, i use the ball of the foot to kick, if its the head, i will use the instep... if practice right, the twist kick can actually cause as much damage as a hook kick if not more... the montion below the knee is exactly the same as as a roundhouse, its just a different direction and different hip movement.. you have to be really flexible to do it though

Depends on the school/sensei/practitioner.

A lot of the old techniques are still known by some today, but they have been removed by the majority of Karate schools because they're time consuming.

Traditional Karate would require at least a few hours every day to master. Especially the body conditioning. Most people don't have time to train more than a few hours a week, so of course modern versions are vastly lacking, but that's not to say training equal to that of the before time is not still available if you look hard for it.

The aspect of body conditioning is almost entirely absent from modern Karate schools, yet this was the most important part, I think. Just few want to spend an hour a day just getting hit with sticks anymore.

Kung Fu has a higher problem with realism than Karate does. Not to say all Kung Fu is bad, but the odds are against them in comparison to Karate. The quality of Kung Fu is vastly different in full time academies, however. I'm speaking only of part time here, such as what is offered in the West.

Clinching is an optional method. You don't need it. Karate not having it does not matter - if someone tries to clinch with them, they can just push them back.

You can't pierce the skin with the fingers. LOL Myths

Drive it into the throat, that's what it was meant for.

Groin kicking in Muay Thai competition has been banned for about 100 years.

Head butts are a no no, also. Not like they're effective, anyway - they're only good for drawing blood, but do little damage past the surface, hence they're considered a nuisance in sport - they have to stop the fight for health reasons rather than because someone is more skilled.

It does not expose the back for long enough to be exploited.

Round kicks are easy to see coming, easy to block, counter, catch and then throw the opponent.

Back kicks of all kinds are almost impossible to counter. The chance of landing a good one is low, perhaps, but there's little risk involve.

Moreover, few people are ready for any back kicks - if the opening was there when you started the kick, it'll likely be there when you turn around and land your foot on the target. People just arn't ready for them.

It breaks confidence and deadlocks.

The differences in basic stance make it impossible to throw in Muay Thai. Though it can be done from the teeping stance, there are still style issues where it is not compatible.

Eh?

Missing a back kick puts you in a seriously disadvantaged position.

The back kick is only good as a counter particularly when your opponent is rushing forward.

And headbutts can break noses when delivered properly. It's a nuisance when boxers or Muay Thai fighters try to get in sneaky shots with the head but as an attack it's pretty brutal if it connects.

i ifnd that alot of martial arts require you to interpret them for them to be effective. im a 2nd dan in shotokan karate and although id maintain that it is an effective martial art there is a gap in the training where we should practice throws and grappling (this may be differant for other karate styles). this is why i also do ninjutsu and as a martial art it is one of the best i have encountered although an amazing set of teachers might have something to do with it (they used to go to russia to teach soldiers).

ninjutsu is kind of like a traditional MMA (with weapons) which is good because you get all the best things from other martial arts but with a system which promotes respect within the club since ive known cage fighters to be pretty arrogant about other students and other martial arts.

as a fighting style im not into spinning back kicks and axe kicks... i just prefer using alot of simple but effective strikes and grabs and pushes if i get the oppurtunity (to try to get to my opponents back to put on strangle holds and things like that).... it looks messy and but it gets the job done quickly and works for me.....

Perhaps you should find a video on You Tube or somewhere where a back kick backfired.

Missing a back kick puts you back in the position you started in. I see no problem. Missing a round kick is worse.

What good is breaking someone's nose going to do, Ronin?

karate
 

One should not mix various sport styles of karate-do with rude applied karate from, say, units of some army special forces. In sport competiton you must to win by score while a soldier must to kill an opponent by naked hands. Different tasks mean different tactics.

I gave a specific scenario for when the back kick was appropriate. Any technique can backfire.

Missing a round kick is only worse if your opponent anticipates you.

As for what good a broken nose does.. In a fight it hurts and you'll blur their vision.

I'm not aware of an "army type" karate.

awareness
 

For instance, there are special units in armed forces of Vietnam. Among other disciplines, they learn certain methods of killing opponents by strikes of naked hands in throat, nasal bone, eyes etc. It can be translated in English as "combat or applied karate" .

combat karate
 

Instructor from special forces demonstrates techniques of applied karate :

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