Umm.... you do realise that Gender Identity Disorder is a psychological disorder and not a biological one right? :cool:

Therefore you can't say that she is just a lesbian. Because many lesbians are happy with being women.

I don't know, perhaps I'm the only one who is lost.

But, exactly how can you not be of the female gender but be of the female sex?

The separation of gender and sex I don't quite understand.

Are you gender queer?

It means you have the genetailia of a woman but think or group yourself as male.

This is not what the thread was made for btw.

androgyny has nothing to do with that... I just don't get why she's using androgyny as some type of gender identity thing..there is already a phrase for that... genderqueer.

There is Gay and Lesbian considering the effects on hormones with the disorderly chromosomes. Also known as a hermaphodite. This is a legit gay or lesbian person, born this way and always to be. However, Bi and illegitamate gay/lesbian is for just pure attention, or just a mental disorder. It's true, and that's the only way it goes and it has been proven.

There is so much ignorance of GID in this thread, I wish I wasn't on my iPhone. Typing is too difficult, so I'll edit this later.

In short, GID may have, and probably does have a biological, scientifically reasonable component. The reason GID is in the DSM IV is because "treatment" (hormones, SRS, etc) is very expensive, and insurance often covers at least part of the cost. Removed from the DSM IV, insurance will not pay. Transgender mental instability is caused by society's reaction and is not an internal mental defect.

Ah. The JF psychology expert has returned.

It is hard to understand what she is talking about. She is not very precise.

I had a dog once that thought she was a dude. She was just crazy, but. She tried to do it with her own mother all the time, even but she didn't have the right equiptment for it... yet her mom didn't mind... 2 crazy dogs... anyway...

______________________

So, Yoshimi, you are not a lesbian? Meaning, literally, you don't try and screw other women? I'm not trying to insult you, just curious.

If all you mean is you liked to play with toy trucks instead of barbie dolls when you were a girl, and now you like to wear mens clothes and listen to Slipknot, drink beer, spit and curse at things, drive fast cars, play baseball, do Boxing, all that cool stuff, isn't the word for that just "tomboy"?

I mean, there is nothing wrong with being a tomboy. Especially if you aint lesbian, some guys find it sexy when girls are actually interested in their cars and music and stuff. I mean, why would you seriously want to put a word on it to classify it as a mental condition, when you could just be happy saying I like this shit instead of that?

I am "different" in some ways, also. I hate it when people try and put words on it. It pisses the hell out of me. There is nothing wrong with me, so why do I need a word to describe my "mental condition"?

that was definitely not sexual but an atempt for dominancelol. my cousin's dog dose that and thats not the point of the thread.

i heard some places have sex segregated eating areas in some restuarants.

No. Shadow (the daughter) would never attempt to dethrone Ruby (her mother). Age determines a dogs rank, not size or attitude (Shadow was bigger).

I think it was more so, there was no male dog around, so she thought someone had to do it, mose as well be her!

I decided not to read this entire thread because to do so would have me so insensed over the biased ignorance of some of the posters that I would be typing almost as much nonsense as some of the responses that are so stupid as to be offensive.

I can tell that Tsuwabuki knows exactly what the issues are around gender and sex identity. Only those of us who have worked with or been directly affected by gender dysphoria go around quoting the DMS IV. :ywave: For those of you who didn't know that acronym is the the Diagnostic Manual used by physchiatry. But it IS the definitive source on this matter currently.

The referral to animals humping and estrogen/testosterone to determine anything related to this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The are other reasons for the animal behavior that are far from related to the animal's percieved gender identity. Go play somewhere else! And since some people don't know their biology..... testostrone is a necessary component of female sexuality as well as male, so forget that whole discussion.

Androgeny is the proper term for what Yoshimi was describing. "Genderqueer" is not only slang and and incorrect, it is offensive to most people - whether it was intended to be so or not. Androgeny means indistinct or blending of gender traits - whether referring to personality, self identity, or the physical traits. A hermaphrodite is a human who, for whatever biological reason, was born with both male and female gentialia. It is not a psychological term, but a physical state of being. Gender is psychological, sex is biological.

Now PLEASE, unless you are going back to the original thread, if you don't have training or first hand experience with this issue, confine yourself to stating your feelings or asking questions. Assuming something just because you have heard some other uneducated person say it and posting it as fact, is seriously insulting to some of the users reading this thread.:mad:

Hmmm,
Treat others how you would want to be treated yourself. Take your own advice and choose your own words more carefully next time. Least thing that is wanted is for this to turn into an flame war.

That said, I would advise you to reread my posts on estrogen/testosterone. Firstly I did NOT say that only male and female produce one of the above only did I? Nor did I say having more of the one is what is depended on calling someone male or female. I would greatly appreciate it as much as others would also, that you read what we write instead of putting words into our writing. To add to that, it was an response stating why there is boundaries in the sexes in society.

Which one are you referring to?
androgyny - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

androgeny - definition of androgeny by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

"Gender is psychological, sex is biological."

gender - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

gender - definition of gender by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

WHO | What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?

I'll let others defend there positions that they have.

YoshimiTheEthereal's,

After reading your reply to my post an few times it came to me exactly what the problem is. Culture. While society has the rules an ideas on the account of what an male and female role is, by the most part how you act in that doesn't affect the grand scheme of things as long as you recognize that you are either female or male (like I said in an previous post). Culture on the other hand will and does care for the "abnormal" (lack of an better term). Examples would be "rednecks", "cowboys", "devas", "rap", and you should get the point.

That said there is some truth to saying there is no such thing as cross-dressing. Two notes I would like to add to this is bras, and drag queens. Bras should at least, be worn only by those that need them, and have no business being worn by someone who doesn't have breasts it simply makes no sense why someone would where something that offers only "support" when they have nothing to support. That leads me unto my next topic drag queens. They are what I was talking about previous in that they go so far to deny what they fundamentally are to "play" an role throughout there lives. Society rejects them because of that.

Really? Who said offensive things, and where?

The point is, is there actually any proof whatsoever that there is an actual measurable and treatable condition that makes women think they're mentally men? I don't think there is. I think it is just a personal preferance or decision.

When someone rocks up and says they are some funny word I've never heard before, I ask what it means, and it is actually a pretty simple thing, it makes you wonder why they do it. If she actually has a mental disorder, it should be treated, but I don't think it can, I don't think she even wants to change, why? Because there is nothing wrong with her. Probably the only thing wrong is she is attention seeking in using ridiculous words and inventing her own social belonging for the sake of making herself feel special in some way that makes a bit more of a splash.

Thanks for all the information Tsuwabuki, I felt a little more enlightened after reading your posts.

It's sexist because not everyone fits into specific gender roles. Biologically, I might be female, but that doesn't mean I'm mentally or emotionally female. Forcing people apart by biological gender can be psychologically damaging.

I've heard of some instances in Japan where there a gender-specific curfews, where women are expected to be in the dorms by a certain time but men can be out as long as they like.

Please explain how this is any part scientifically true...

Just try and appreciate the progress Japanese women have made in the last couple hundred years. If you look at it like that, they're almost flying...

EVERYONE, fits into an sex. Give an evidence to support the claim separating people by sex, is damaging to the mental state. Why would you consider yourself not female by the way your mental state is(acting like an male does not make one male, it's the same as acting in an play)?

Ugh, There's curfews on College campuses, example would be Boyce College where EVERYONE has to be back in there rooms by 12:00 AM.

Look, if the culture agrees to it (I mean both sexes), you really can't call it sexism. One being it's an complete different culture, two being the vast majority likes it the way it is. (it's an simple reason why we still have the segregation of just about every public restroom.

Last Do I have to repeat myself again? Please read the entire thread before posting. I have repeated myself over, (I do it for an reason) you simply cannot trust someone you don't know. Rapist/criminals exists and I doubt you want to give them more chances to get at women/men.

Actually, if you look at most situations where sexes are seperated, it often forms strong and solid bonds very quick (I am thinking of my Infantry experience here, where we were almost brothers in only a few months).

I think so long as there is a reason for it. Of course, there will always be unisex social events and places, so it is not like you're starved. If if you girls just can't live without those guys, then just go to a different place...

I really don't know why gender groups even exist. It's stupid and it hurts people who are not one of the two. That's why androgyny exists, and even why most people who have sex change operations have them, probably. People may want to change their sex so that their gender and sex match, so that they will perhaps no longer feel hurt and humiliated by society.

I know I am very embarrassed every time I am called a girl, and when I have to go with girls during segregation of sexes. I do not want to be a girl or a boy. I am happy being in the middle, and I wish people would be more accepting. But, no, they have to hurt me by making me be with girls, even though I am uncomfortable. It's hard to explain. I have just felt this way at least since kindergarten. Then, all the girls thought I was weird, so I played with the boys. After a couple of years, they wouldn't be my friend any more because I was female, even though I was transexual at the time. I had no friends. Society had brainwashed all of those children. Because of this, I don't want to be a part of either gender, and I don't feel like I should try to be a male anymore either, even though I fit there better than female. I decided to just be myself, and that lead me into androgyny.

I don't want any violent protests, nor a transgender pride parade, I just want the segregation to stop.

Things like the dorm room having different curfews for the genders hurt a lot. Why should I be treated like that because of the way I was born? All of those people should have a uniform dress code.

Yoshimi, you are a girl. If you cannot accept that, then perhaps you were right, and you do have a disorder.

ME. I'M evidence. It's damaging for me, personally, to have to be separated from men, because with that separation comes gender roles. It's emotionally damaging for me to have to listen to people say that - as a woman - I have a specific role in the world:to be submissive to men. That's what I mean by separation - to say that I am different from a man; to say that being "girly" means that I ought to be submissive and wear dresses, etc.; and to say that I'm mentally ill because I don't want to be submissive is pretty emotionally stressful. It's damaging for enough women to have spurred the feminist movement and black feminism.

It's not impossible to take away the labels of male and female, to just think of someone as a human being first before seeing their assumed biological makeup and therefore assumed cultural roles. It's difficult because that's the way all humans have been raised, but that's the way I personally try to live.

If people thought that way, I would be a slave right now.

You're right though, there has been a lot of progress.

Now I'm not trying to insult you or anything. And by no means am I trying to say what you said is false. But do you ever look at the bright side of anything. Is there any good in anything you look at or read. When you analyze something, is it always negative. It seems nothing can be taken with a grain of salt in you eyes. Someone is either always racist or sexist. Cant you just relax, maybe just a little bit.

Maybe it's because you only know me through this forum, but I'm actually pretty relaxed. I'm usually the one telling my friends to relax and stop being paranoid. But at the same time, I'm realistic - and as a black, bisexual woman, it will be easier for me to see racism, homophobia, and sexism - easier than a white, straight man. I'm obviously not the type of person to sit back and let it fly. And unfortunately, I have been seeing threads of oppression (pun not intended, I swear.) So, unfortunately I guess for you and anyone else annoyed by it, I will say something about it... though really, I think that's only been in three threads or so. Not that bad.

But thanks for being nice about it. =)

Well you wont find much relief in Japan, or might I add with most foreigners in Japan as well. We dont fit in anywhere either.

My advice is to just go with the flow. Not like things are going to change anytime soon.

As for the basic question, there are many times when the genders are distinguished from each other. You got your public baths, schools, and elementary and junior high schools typically seat students boy girl boy girl even down to graduation ceremonies where the students walk down the aisle boy girl to get their diplomas. My community has some kind of mandatory community service jobs that every home owner must do, and the jobs are either for men, or for women. Women are generally assigned cleaning and cooking jobs, while men are required to do the jobs like volunteer fire fighters or helping the local shrine when there is some festival, which are basically reasons to get drunk (none of us would know what to do if we were asked to put a fire out).

I dont know what to say about this androgynous stuff. Just... well, you might want to just stay away from anything that makes you uncomfortable like onsens and single gender schools.

As I said, things arent going to change in our lifetimes.

No, did not ask for your life story as an example, I asked for ACCREDITED evidence that separated people by sex is harming. Keep in mind we have been doing this for hundreds if not thousands if years. To add did you only get hurt (feelings), or can you prove that you been mentally damaged by this?

Ugh, No just NO. Where did you get the idea that being separated from the opposite means you have to be submissive? By that logic you can apply the same to men and say they are being submissive also. I've already addressed the "dresses" part so I would ask you go back and reread that section. I don't see the connection your trying to say here.

Equal rights spurred the feminist movement NOT separation. Does the vast majority of people see someone else being non-human? Point is you cannot deny that there is an fundamental difference between the sexes. Last to add, culture is as it is, that groups usual way of thinking.

How does gender seperation mean that females have to be submissive? No one is telling you that except yourself.

Anyway, men are naturally dominant. On average, they're bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, more aggressive, more industrious, all that (keep in mind, this is on average); how did you think the world was going to play out?

However, nowadays men do not try and belittle or control women like used to be so in most places (aside Islamic countries). They're still going to be fairly dominant in society and relationships, however. That is a natural thing, but.

Still, you do still have all the chances men have now in most cases, and gender seperation in social places is no effect to that. Try and tell the Chancellor of Germany, Prime Minister of New Zealand, or women like Hillary Clinton what you say in the above post.

I think the effects of gender segregation you're talking about are imagined by those who are trying to cry out about an entirley different subject.

Of course, the option still remains, if you dislike the policies of a certain club or event, then do not attend it. No one is forcing this upon you; it is optional to attend such places.

How is that so?

First, please stop saying "NO, JUST NO." Its obnoxious. I think it's completely possible to have a calm discussion, just expressing ideas, without saying shit like "OMG YOU'RE SO WRONG." Relax.

It's always funny how personal stories aren't valued. Personal stories are what spurred the need for movements. I feel like my life is "accredited." If that's not good enough for you, move on.

The need to make women submissive to men is what separated men and women. Whenever one group wants to oppress another, suddenly labels and expected qualities come with these labels. It's the same thing with race and sexuality. In fact, before the Victoria age, there was no "homosexual." There was just sex and desire. Then, in order to make one group of people submissive to another, scholars began declaring that people who had sex with the same gender were mentally ill. There was a new group - homosexuals were separated from heterosexuals. Now that they've been separated, people can easily discriminate against them.

And yes, equal rights did spur the feminist movements. Because women, who were separated from men and felt emotionally attacked that they could not do the same things as men, decided to do something about it.

I'm just making up a quick example, but there are also many fundamental differences between women and pregnant women, right? Yet we still think of them as women. We still have women go into the same bathrooms, still expect them to have the same qualities that come with the labels of "woman." If we suddenly wanted to discriminate against pregnant women, however, we could easily do that. We could call pregnant women by a completely different label that isn't associated with women in general. Maybe we could call them preggers. From there, we could label them and say there are expected qualities for all preggers. They're all supposed to be moody and constantly hungry.

But we don't. We also don't need to do it for men and women. Then, we would just be humans with biological differences, as my brown skin is darker than a white person's skin, and there wouldn't be as much discrimination.

It's called the veil. It's Du Bois's theory on double consciousness. Because black people are alienated as black - different from white - we see ourselves not only as humans but as black people. From that perspective, because we see our black identity, we can see when someone is attacking it; whereas on the other hand, if you're a white person in a room filled only with white people, you don't need to see your white identity. Then, if someone were to attack you, you would only see it as attacking your human-self rather than your white-self.

Also, from your other post, read my response to the other person on this thread.

Men are "naturally more dominant" when you think dominant as stronger, faster, etc. Society places more value on those qualities so that men can be more dominant. Those qualities were helpful - in the stone age. Nowadays, it doesn't matter, yet we still think of those qualities as valuable. Society also ever-so-conveniently places more value on the person who goes out and makes money while the person at home, who takes care of the house and children, holds no value... to the point where if there was to be a divorce, the person who went out and made money is the one who will win everything. It's no coincidence that society put women into the role of the ones expected to stay at home.

And, I know it's a little off-topic, but it's very interesting to see what happens to same-sex couples. When there are two men, and one man stays at home, he's suddenly the submissive one and feels the discrimination women feel. If we took away those values, took away the expected roles and qualities that fit into different labels, and just took away the labels completely, there wouldn't be discrimination.

I'm just curious - where are you from? There are different cultural expectations for women in every country, and I assumed you were from America.

Where did you get this information? There has always been homosexuality. The ancient Greeks found it more pleasurable for a man to be with a man because they were away from home a long time.
The Muslim religion forbids pre-martial sex with the opposite sex, but since homosexuality wasn't mentioned they thought it to be OK.
The scholars had nothing to do with labeling people as mentally ill, it was certain religions that did (and still do today) that like people who are gay have a choice.

It wasn't thought of "homosexuality." It was thought of as one man having sex with another man, fulfilling desire. There was no label that was put on it. It's easy to look up on Google if you'd like. As for the scholars, also type in "1920 inverts" and you'll read more about what I was saying.

There, is an reason why I asked you if you only got your feelings hurt. Since you cannot provide any evidence to support the claim that separation of the sexes is mentally damaging, you cannot claim it as true.

Ugh, did I not just say linking things without evidence does nothing for your claim? There is an reason I also did the little phrase "no, just NO". I can make claims too, like " because men fill the need to dominate the dog, we domesticated, it so that it could be our slave. that said, I'm going to ask you to support this claim also with evidence. So we just deal with labels, I'm labeled an redhead does that mean I should feel discriminated against because people made fun of that?

So, how does the feminists movement start because they couldn't use the same restroom as an men, because that IS what is being talked about here, both-equal-separation of the sexes.

Ok, quit with the semantics. Pregnant women ARE women. Being able to have an baby is an quality of being an women, yes? So I don't get the example.

Very few people, have an problem with the women/men labeling. Mainly because THERE is no discrimination that you want to write off on men.

So what you are saying, is that if there is an room of black people they wouldn't see themselves get attacked, only see it as attacking there human self? If someone was to walk into that room and call white people "crackers" they would know what they are attacking. It works under the same principle because I know I'm an redhead, someone attacks me, I would know what they are attacking. Point is I don't see how this relates to what we are talking about.

I think that the reasons that those concerts were seperated by sex was because those concerts can get pretty rough and ppl (usually girls unfortunatly) get hurt. Also its is true that sexual harassment is quite common at concerts/gigs (well ones in the UK anyway i dont know about Japan).

I do understand where you are coming from and empathise with you.

ox

WOW! This post blew my head off! DO you smoke this much often?

I think you alienate yourself a lot. You're not literally under attack. There are dickheads out there, but you have the option to completely ignore them nowadays.

I mean, how can black people still say their race brings disadvantage in America when the President is half black? Seriously? There is no walls around you. There is only a few random fags, and you clearly pay way too much attention to them.

They're still pretty relevant. Men are much more resolved and objective. In wealthier business, males often do better simply because they think more straight forward and objectively.

Also, in physical labour jobs (such as buildin), women are often paid slightly less because everyone knows they work slightly slower and less productive.

As for my wife, I wish you were right, frankly. She took out an insurance policy before we got together, and it cost about $100 US per month, and I'm having to pay it off, and will have to do so for the next 2 years. I want her to get a job... what's her answer? "I think it time we try make more baby!"

Yes, I dominate her and she is very submissive, but it's not like my encouragement to be more productive is really relevant to her, anyway. It's okay for me, because I can take care of her and I like havin a kitchen slave, but that is her choice.

If you were to come accross a husband that was not content with your own enthusiasim for work or study, you do have the option to leave him. In the past, that'd occur less, because there was not many jobs a woman could do. But there is little excuse for it nowadays, and cring out you're being oppressed sounds a bit silly when it's your choice to stay there in the first place.

Any man who feels like that has other more pressing problems that need be urgently addressed long before womens discrimination is even considered...

I grew up in Australia, but have permanently moved to Thailand. I intend to live here for forever.

So you know about the racism I was saying:

I'm trying to start a career in professional kick boxing (Muay Thai - the Thai style of kick boxing). Yet no one will give me a fair shot because I'm white. You see, most big gyms here are full of tourists, and tourists are viewed as money resources. Gyms will charge you about $200 - $300 USD per month to train there, and an equal amount for a room. Then you've got food to buy... All up, it is not hard to spend $1,000 USD a month here doing Muay Thai. But, you'll be very lucky to make more than $300 a month doing fights! So that doesn't add up, does it?

Well, the way the Thais do it, is they'll train at a gym and live there for free, and in exchange they'll split the fight money 50%-50% with the gym. This way, it is possible to have a sustainable career in Muay Thai, and develop your skills, and if you're good enough you'll make it big time and earn some good money. Otherwise, you'll probably spend your older days as a trainer teaching others.

Anyway, I tried to find a gym where I could train for free so my fights would pay for the living expenses. Almost impossible. Actually, only this morning, I've finnally found a gym that can look past my skin color. I've had to go right out into rural Thailand where there are no foreigners, and the people are not accustomed to making a living by racistly ripping people off, and this morning I finnally met an honest gym. The gym is tiny and old and dirty, but the peoples hearts are good, so I'm happy.

But, I'm sure you can imagine the frustration I've been through. Just not being able to do what the Thais do simply because of my skin color and ethnicity. It had a big impact on me, and left me very sour with a lot of people and places.

Yes, but most religions have branded it as sinful for a very long time and homosexuals have been outcasts and shunned.

I believe the Catholic church has a huge problem with homosexual priests.

I suggest you check your facts beforehand.

He said religions... did not make it specific.

Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Muslim cultures have generally perceived homosexual behaviour as sinful. Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to make clear that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their "orientation" that is condemned.

How can you have a homosexual priest if sex is forbidden? I know in truth many are, but the church will never admit it. Celibacy is a stupid tradition and causes most of the problems in the church.

WTF are you talking about?

What "fact" was wrong? The Catholics are some of the most anti gay there are...

In ancient Japan, the Buddhist monks preached homosexuality between men because they felt it was more pure for a man to be with a man rather than a woman, because they believed women were like dirt.

But what mercedesjin was saying is that homosexuality existed, it just didn't have a label. People didn't have a name for same-sex couples, it was just couples.

I agree with you, mercedesjin, on everything that you have said. :)

I think I should make speeches, march around with picket signs, and write a letter to President Obama about this issue. Maybe he will agree with me?