1. Japanese 2. English Yes OR No OR Maybe?

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

For a language to be easier than another language, it has to be limiting in it`s expressive capabilities. You may not realize it, but in saying English is an easier language than Japanese - you are saying that English is a lesser language than Japanese. I somehow doubt that you are intending to do so.

I don't know why you believe in this myth Nyororin, why would a language be LESS expressive if it is easier (in certain aspects)? Japanese doesn't have plurals, so is it less expressive? English doesn't use Chinese characters yet it is able to express abstract ideas. Chinese doesn't even have tenses yet it works pretty well. While most thing you say makes sense, you are totally off the mark on this one.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Either way, that isn`t the issue. The number of words, and the skill required to properly use the two languages does not differ. You are using your perception, as a speaker of English, to rate another writing system badly simply because YOU find it too hard.
[/color]

Again you are totally off base. Chinese characters is harder to learn, for natives as well, you will need to put in more effort no doubt about it. Doesn't mean English is less expressive because of this fact. Chinese pronounciation is next to impossible, in fact 90% of the Chinese speakers cannot speak standard Mandarin properly even if they wanted to. Japanese pronounciation on the other hand is idiot proof. Still, doesn't make Chinese more expressive because of impossible pronounciation.

So I think you are way off on the complexity thing. You can't possibly say all languages have the same level of complexity with a straight face. Even if you are native, language complexity will affect you, just not as much as when you are learning from scratch when you are much older.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by kirakira

I don't know why you believe in this myth Nyororin, why would a language be LESS expressive if it is easier (in certain aspects)? Japanese doesn't have plurals, so is it less expressive? English doesn't use Chinese characters yet it is able to express abstract ideas. Chinese doesn't even have tenses yet it works pretty well. While most thing you say makes sense, you are totally off the mark on this one.

A myth? No. In order for a language to be "easier" than another language, it would have to be less expressive in the end. There are languages which are easier for one group to acquire than another (European languages are easier for an already European language speaker to pick up, for example...) However, this is NOT a rating of the actual language itself.

Note that you even put in certain aspects. You`re doing your best not to rate language as a whole.

I have never even once said that one language is easier than another. In fact, I have been fighting to point out that one language is NOT easier than another - and that as English is no less expressive than Japanese it is really an insult to it to be called "easier".

Considering one language "easier" and therefore superior to another is complete and utter stupidity - and that is what I have been trying to point out.

So I think you are way off on the complexity thing. You can't possibly say all languages have the same level of complexity with a straight face. Even if you are native, language complexity will affect you, just not as much as when you are learning from scratch when you are much older.

You`re saying that I said something I did not. I have never said that all languages are of equal complexity. Please re-read.

I can say that English and Japanese do not differ in complexity with a completely straight face - and as a linguist on top of that. There are actually few languages that can be considered more or less complex, but yes, they exist.
You yourself point out that languages have strong points and weak points. I have never said that English is less expressive than Japanese - but have pointed out that saying a language is easier to acquire as a first language will carry that meaning. English is NOT less expressive than Japanese, therefore it is a serious disservice to imply that it is.

I find it personally shocking that someone can honestly say and believe that if English were more present in Japan it would be "easier" to learn for all the children than Japanese. That is pure arrogance, and a leap straight on to the English superiority bandwagon, whether the person saying it believes it or not.

Saying that English is a much easier language, and basing that on the number of characters used to write the language is silly. Saying that English has a simpler writing system would be accurate - but the simplicity/complexity of a writing system has very very little to do with the level of the language itself or the acquisition of it as a first language.

You say that Chinese is difficult - Can you say with a straight face that if there were more English media in China, everyone would switch over to "easier" English because their native language is too much of a pain? And that they should do so because English so better and easier?
I seriously hope not.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

A myth? No. In order for a language to be "easier" than another language, it would have to be less expressive in the end.

After reading your response, I don't think we are even talking about the same thing. Anyway I agree with your point, English as second official language is crux.

What I'm trying to say is acquiring a language even as a first language will vary in the effort required. Maybe not spoken but definitely reading/writing as not all languages are created equal (but I'm sure they all are just as equally functional).

As for acquiring a second language, it will depend on your first language. English speakers is going to struggle with Japanese, it's obvious, but ask any Korean and they can learn Japanese with their eyes closed.

Anyway I didn't read all of Aniki's rant but most of it seems extremely flawed to say the least.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by kirakira

After reading your response, I don't think we are even talking about the same thing. Anyway I agree with your point, English as second official language is crux.

Thank you. I think that somewhere along the line my argument and the pro-English set was mixed... I`ve only really been irritated by the great leap (by what appears to be native speakers, at that) to call English an "easier" language.

What I'm trying to say is acquiring a language even as a first language will vary in the effort required. Maybe not spoken but definitely reading/writing as not all languages are created equal (but I'm sure they all are just as equally functional).

The end functionality is the point. I personally think that Japanese grammar rules are much easier than those of English. But the written language is harder. In the end these things balance though to create languages of equal complexity and, in a linguistic light, of equal "difficulty".
Both languages are going to require an equal amount of time and effort to acquire complete proficiency in as a native speaker. Exactly where that effort goes isn`t that big of an issue.

Native speakers of one language saying their language is easier than others, and therefore should or would be adopted by another country if possible is one of my pet peeves.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by kirakira

Again you are totally off base. Chinese characters is harder to learn, for natives as well, you will need to put in more effort no doubt about it. Doesn't mean English is less expressive because of this fact. Chinese pronounciation is next to impossible, in fact 90% of the Chinese speakers cannot speak standard Mandarin properly even if they wanted to. Japanese pronounciation on the other hand is idiot proof. Still, doesn't make Chinese more expressive because of impossible pronounciation.

Some of the things you said here didn't sound right to me, so I asked my 3 chinese flatmates for their input. Here it is:

Yes, Chinese characters are hard to learn for the simple reason that there are so many you have to learn. On average, 10 per day when starting school. Other than this, chinese chars are no harder to learn than English vocabulary. Remembering how to write them isn't difficult because there are rules to how you write characters. Remembering the character writing is like remembering the spelling of words in English etc. So as a native chinese learner, the characters don't cause as much difficulty as people may think.

Chinese pronounciation is not so difficult. There are only four tones (unless you count the neutral as another tone) and the more advanced in the language you get, the less noticable they are. i.e. The tone becomes very very subtle unlike when you first start learning where you speak in tone perfect. The tones are only difficult when someone isn't a native chinese speaker. Even then, it's not as difficult as people think.

90%? Where did you get this number? Chinese and many asian languages are pretty known for the fact that the litteracy rate in their respective countries is always extremely good compared to western countries and their languages. If you mean on a speaking level, it either comes down to the fact that people have their own dialects and don't learn Mandarin as well as they should, or just accents.


Back to me:

I'm not sure what you guys meant by "expressing", but out of all the languages I speak, I find English the best for expressing myself in a quick and direct way (of course, this isn't always a good thing. In more complex subjects, I'm prety rubish at debating in English). Kabyle (Mother tongue), hasn't evolved very well in recent history, therefore, there are many borrowed words now. To speak purely in Kabyle without borrowed words becomes extremely difficult. Arabic (Algerian spoken arabic. Literary arabic is a nightmare) is fine for expressing myself. French... well, I dislike French because for me it's a language that just beats around the bush. It's rarely direct and to the point like English. To many, that could be the beauty of it (and I understand). But, with French, it'd probably be because I'd call my level Advanced at most, unlike the other languages, which to me are at a Native speakers' level.

[blueflash]

Originally Posted by derek3men

I do believe that it would be beneficial for English to be available there, but to make it an official second language is unecessary...

yupz..I"m agree with you...

[ozkai]

So the answer is YES for English in Japan

[SaintKat]

Sure, if that's what the people want. Have they got some sort of public opinion poll or whatnot going?

[ozkai]

Originally Posted by SaintKat

Sure, if that's what the people want. Have they got some sort of public opinion poll or whatnot going?

Yes, at the start of this thread

[thangfish2003]

Originally Posted by ozkai

Yes, at the start of this thread

Exactly