Trains .. Trains..

[JBaymore]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Even in big cities in the US, it seems like the public transportation systems are just barely adequate - if that.

The Japanese rail transport system is one of the things I miss most when I return from Japan to the States. Drives me nuts that the US has not invested in mass transit like that. It'd eliminate a lot of cars (and pollution) from the road. I'd use it in a heartbeat if it was available.

But Americans like their "individuality" .... so mass tansit concepts likely are "culturally" doomed to a likely fail here.

best,

.............john

[godwine]

Originally Posted by JBaymore

The Japanese rail transport system is one of the things I miss most when I return from Japan to the States. Drives me nuts that the US has not invested in mass transit like that. It'd eliminate a lot of cars (and pollution) from the road. I'd use it in a heartbeat if it was available.

But Americans like their "individuality" .... so mass tansit concepts likely are "culturally" doomed to a likely fail here.

best,

.............john

I thinok the "Individuality" is only a mentality planted due to the lack of an elaborate and reliable transport system like Japan. People are forced to drive when the conveience of public transport does not exist

I too will be using a PD transportation system more if our system here is as elaborate. It will not stop me from owning a car and driving, but all that will only be for recreational purpose then...

[astrogaijin]

Chicago has the Metra which runs from all the major suburbs to Union Station and only that one station. There is also the El which runs over the roads but I've only been on that once and don't want to again. Not clean at all. As for the Metra, I've been on it many times going into Chicago but it's takes 2 hours while to drive takes 1 or less since it has to stop at every single station if your not on it during rush hour.

When I was in DC we traveled alot of the subway there and it was great. You get around to places faster than walking and since the station was only 2 blocks from our hotel it was easy to get to. Not sure how much it cost though. It also was great since it was cold down there and up above was 100+ (walking down the national mall sucked that day, I never knew it was that long and the heat made it worse)

[OHayou]

I'm the absolute worst when it comes to directions and remembering roads (and remembering most things in general but hey when you get to my age your thankful to have hair!) but:

- I think subway systems (like New York for example) in America are terribly confusing and noisy.
- Japanese systems are so much easier to use. I can barely speak enough Japanese to get myself into trouble and being able to navigate the rail system with ease and comfort is a testament to how well the system is laid out. (I couldn't imagine coming to New York as a foreigner that could not read or speak English and easily navigating the system.)

Also, the bullet trains are pretty neat, comfortable, and I like the snack-cart girls.

Additionally: Do Japanese rail systems/subway have musicians like in New York?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by JBaymore

But Americans like their "individuality" .... so mass tansit concepts likely are "culturally" doomed to a likely fail here.

I don't really think that is the key issue. It really has a lot to do with the space differences. There is a LOT of ground to cover in the US. Japan is not all that large to begin with, so a) there is less distance to cover and b) there is less space for personal vehicles.

Add to this the length of time the public transportation systems in the US have been a poor option (due to limited lines, limited schedules, poor management, etc)... And you get an image of public transportation as something inconvenient and as a last resort choice. Which, well, in it's current state, it is in most places.

Additionally: Do Japanese rail systems/subway have musicians like in New York?

I have never ridden the New York subway, but I can say that I have never seen any sort of musicians playing inside a train. I can't even imagine it.

On a visit to Seoul though, I saw quite a lot of that sort of thing. People blasting music on the trains, begging on the trains, etc etc. It was a really strange experience as the trains themselves are so similar to those in Japan - but the behavior of those riding was completely different.

[OHayou]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I have never ridden the New York subway, but I can say that I have never seen any sort of musicians playing inside a train. I can't even imagine it.

On a visit to Seoul though, I saw quite a lot of that sort of thing. People blasting music on the trains, begging on the trains, etc etc. It was a really strange experience as the trains themselves are so similar to those in Japan - but the behavior of those riding was completely different.

Ohhh, that's definitely a stark contrast to what I experienced in Japan.

In New York there are beggars that come through trains (beggars in the context of being homeless as well as people who have just hit hard times and are out of a job.)

In New York subway systems (I've only experienced New York but I'm assuming it might be the same in other big city subway systems) you will have musicians (as well as performers like break dance groups, etc) who play in the subway halls and main areas. I'm assuming they need a license or permit of some sort (perhaps not though) and typically they are pretty good at their craft. They have tip jars, pamphlets containing information about them, possibly CDs they are selling. Doesn't sound like that is the case in Japan though.

[godwine]

[quote=OHayou;874777]
Also, the bullet trains are pretty neat, comfortable, and I like the snack-cart girls.QUOTE]

LOL, is it always the girls with you????

Toronto subway is the same, musician and stuff, but they need a operating license to play at the station and sell CD

Our major station - Union station, has all kind of weird people in it.

Inside the train, it is very typical for people to be on their phone, eating, playing games, chatting with each other... basically, everything that is considered to be rude an unacceptable in Japan

[JBaymore]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

It really has a lot to do with the space differences. There is a LOT of ground to cover in the US. Japan is not all that large to begin with, so a) there is less distance to cover and b) there is less space for personal vehicles.

Nyororin,

That is the thought usually presented when this subject comes up, but it really does not necessarily fit as a major roadblock to developing mass tansit where it would work. You are completely correct that covering the entire USA woukld be totally problematic, at best. But Japan is about the same length as northern Maine to the tip of Florida. Yet you can get reasonably decent mass tansit along that whole length.

The US heaviest population centers are heavily concentrated along the costal areas, East and West. So a decent mass transit sustem serving basically the same kind of land mass as Japan has that serviced mainly the costal areas would be little differnt in scale than what is happening in Japan. Then maybe a couple major high speed lines across the country's midsection for coast to coast transit. That would go a long way to cutting dependence on imported oil and toward cutting pollution.

Another BIG issue in the developemnt of effective and widespread mass tansit in the USA is the cheap gasoline that allows the personal car to actually be a viable option. If the price of gas were to jump to what it is in Japan, and the toll roads get as expensive, people would be demanding good mass transit.

Of course with the USA's economic situation at the moment, we can't even afford to build a wooden kid's play car, so a huge mass transit investment is WAY out of the picture here .

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Add to this the length of time the public transportation systems in the US have been a poor option (due to limited lines, limited schedules, poor management, etc)... And you get an image of public transportation as something inconvenient and as a last resort choice. Which, well, in it's current state, it is in most places.

Yeah...... absolutely true. The personal safety and "travel experience" of mass trainsit in America is a BIG issue to overcome. That is another cultural roadblock issue.


I live only about 60 miles northwest of Boston. Only about 15 miles from the third largest city in NH. I have to drive a persoonal car 1/2 hour to just get to a place that has ANY bus service in to Boston. There is no "mass transit" possibility to get there at all. (There is an 8 lane highway [bi-directional] running out of that city to Boston though.) And the bus schedule to Boston from there (major NH city) is absolutely awful. There is absolutely NO passenger train service at all from around here into Boston. There is absolutely no mass transit option here to get into even the next-door bigger town from me which is about 5 miles away either. Of course my small town does not have any either.

Outside of major cities in the USA ........ mass transit is not really available as an option even if people wanted to use it.

best,

...............john

[OHayou]

Originally Posted by godwine

LOL, is it always the girls with you????

lol...Hey, Who doesn't like a nice, sharply-dressed hard working girl.

Originally Posted by godwine

Toronto subway is the same, musician and stuff, but they need a operating license to play at the station and sell CD

Our major station - Union station, has all kind of weird people in it.

Inside the train, it is very typical for people to be on their phone, eating, playing games, chatting with each other... basically, everything that is considered to be rude an unacceptable in Japan

Yeah, I noticed that in New York (a general lack of respect for people) and probably another reason why Japan's systems are so easy to navigate. It's a much more peaceful event in contrast to the hustle and bustle of a North American big cities subway. I would think Canada would be slightly better than America though. Canadian people are quite nice (or so the stereotype I believe) unless they lose in Hockey then watch out...

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by OHayou

In New York subway systems (I've only experienced New York but I'm assuming it might be the same in other big city subway systems) you will have musicians (as well as performers like break dance groups, etc) who play in the subway halls and main areas. I'm assuming they need a license or permit of some sort (perhaps not though) and typically they are pretty good at their craft. They have tip jars, pamphlets containing information about them, possibly CDs they are selling. Doesn't sound like that is the case in Japan though.

Actually, in the larger stations, you can see stuff like this... But it is usually done outside the station entrance or in a park by the stations. It's been a few years since I have needed to go through there on the train (we moved so hardly ever go that way by train), but there is a certain station that has a large wide hall inside where bands often played off to the side.

I was thinking that you were talking about inside the train, where that sort of thing is really unthinkable. Stations, though, sometimes do have bands and the like playing in them / in front of them.

The US heaviest population centers are heavily concentrated along the costal areas, East and West. So a decent mass transit sustem serving basically the same kind of land mass as Japan has that serviced mainly the costal areas would be little differnt in scale than what is happening in Japan. Then maybe a couple major high speed lines across the country's midsection for coast to coast transit. That would go a long way to cutting dependence on imported oil and toward cutting pollution.

While I agree that some of the heavier population centers are along the coast, having a system serving those areas would not, in my opinion, be nearly enough to convince someone to give up their car. While Japan may be in the same type of space area, the actual main population centers are very compact. There is a tight network of trains in the main city bits, with a lighter net over the other areas. In the US, however, population is spread out over a huge sprawling area. There isn't the same compact sort of city. Large suburbs spread over a very wide area. This is really what I meant by the difference in space. In Japan, you can have a train system that is relatively compact and be within reach of most of the population of an area. In order for there to be the same ease of access for the suburban population in the US, there would need to be a lot of ground covered... Which really isn't feasible. A tight inner net means very little when you have to go so far to get to it. A suburban resident who would need to drive to a station is not going to bother. They'll drive all the way - especially when their image of mass transit isn't all that great.