Japanese price sneakyness, gah

[spicytuna]

Originally Posted by masaegu

For those barely legal back-street bars where ugly girls with pancake make-up sit next to you and ask if she may have a drink, and keeps ordering drinks that are actually tea, the table charge can be higher.

Hahaha! Love that description!

Hmm... I wonder if my bottle of shochu is still at the back-street bar I visited a year ago.

[tazzy]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Columbine explained it perfectly above. It is called お通し（おとおし） in Eastern Japan and 突き出し（つきだし） in many parts of Western Japan.

This custom is completely "understood" between drinking places and customers and it has been practiced for hundreds of years, so there is no sneakiness about it. Just like all the other customs of any culture, it is written nowhere. Tipping, for example, is also just practiced without officially explained to the members of the cultures that do practice it. I, as an outsider to that tipping culture, do not call it "sneaky, gah!".

Except you don't absolutely have to tip. Its an optional extra which is just the polite thing to do and standard practice- when places back home do include a service charge on the bill though then I feel fully within my rights to moan about it, that is just wrong and defeats the point of a tip.


And wow, so much agro in this thread.
I like Japan too, that doesn't mean I even defend the bad parts of it.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by tazzy

Except you don't absolutely have to tip. Its an optional extra which is just the polite thing to do and standard practice- when places back home do include a service charge on the bill though then I feel fully within my rights to moan about it, that is just wrong and defeats the point of a tip.


And wow, so much agro in this thread.
I like Japan too, that doesn't mean I even defend the bad parts of it.

In the Uk, tipping isn't common AT ALL, just like Japan. I've been a waitress, there was no way I could have lived off my tips. But I had a guaranteed wage because my pub had a service charge. Some places just factor this into the cost of their food and drink, and sometimes it's actually listed on the bill, but you always pay it.

What's more you usually pay the service charge without getting any kind of snack in return, regardless of if the service was exceptional or awful and regardless of wether you tip or not.

Perhaps this is why I don't feel like the Japanese system is that much of a raw deal; it's a set rate to pay no matter your budget or how much you order or how long you spend, so everyone essentially tips the same and all the staff get paid back the same. I think thats a pretty fair way to run your business. I don't think this is a 'bad part' of Japan at all.

I'm sorry to say as well, but generally the people who don't understand the system or why people accept it are American. This is simply another aspect of culture shock. You're simply not used to it.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by tazzy

Except you don't absolutely have to tip. Its an optional extra which is just the polite thing to do and standard practice- when places back home do include a service charge on the bill though then I feel fully within my rights to moan about it, that is just wrong and defeats the point of a tip.


And wow, so much agro in this thread.
I like Japan too, that doesn't mean I even defend the bad parts of it.

Even so, its just standard. Lots of bars have a cover charge in different places around the world, and you have to pay that. Just think of it like a cover. Basically, if you go to a bar and they drop something in front of you that you did not ask for, you will be paying the seat charge. You can avoid this charge by doing nomihoudai (all you can drink deals) or set courses though at some izakayas. Also if you look around you can find bars that you basically just order at the counter and you probably will not have seat charge at those type of places.

In any case why would you not tip? In places that one tips the wait staff they typically make like 3 bucks an hour, and depend upon the tips of their customers. I mean would you really not tip?? Even if the service is horrible I will still leave 10%. You are just a total ass if you don't in my opinion. So yeah you are right, tipping is optional, like being kind and courteous. You don't have to, but if you don't people will think you are a jerk-off.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by tazzy

Except you don't absolutely have to tip. Its an optional extra which is just the polite thing to do and standard practice- when places back home do include a service charge on the bill though then I feel fully within my rights to moan about it, that is just wrong and defeats the point of a tip.


And wow, so much agro in this thread.
I like Japan too, that doesn't mean I even defend the bad parts of it.

You don't have to tip, but you do. It's just like you don't HAVE to eat steak with a knife and a fork, but you do.

[tazzy]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

Even so, its just standard. Lots of bars have a cover charge in different places around the world, and you have to pay that. Just think of it like a cover. Basically, if you go to a bar and they drop something in front of you that you did not ask for, you will be paying the seat charge. You can avoid this charge by doing nomihoudai (all you can drink deals) or set courses though at some izakayas. Also if you look around you can find bars that you basically just order at the counter and you probably will not have seat charge at those type of places.

In any case why would you not tip? In places that one tips the wait staff they typically make like 3 bucks an hour, and depend upon the tips of their customers. I mean would you really not tip?? Even if the service is horrible I will still leave 10%. You are just a total ass if you don't in my opinion. So yeah you are right, tipping is optional, like being kind and courteous. You don't have to, but if you don't people will think you are a jerk-off.

Where I come from countries have union agreements, minimum wage laws, etc... people working in restaurants and pubs aren't making awesome money but they can survive just fine.
Tips should be just that, tips, given if the service was particularly good or if you've a particularly large bill (its just dickish to pay for a £96 meal with friends then sit around waiting for your £4 back, even if the service wasn't that great).
When somewhere includes a service charge they're just being knobs, so overly presumptious on your tip. It also really reduces the incentive for the staff to actually provide good service if they're getting their tip anyway.

I've never encountered a bar with a cover charge elsewhere in the world- unless this bar had live music or naked ladies or somesuch.

And...yep. In this occasion I thought it was one of those order at the counter bars. It really was just the bar which had a few seats at it then two little tables .

[MMM]

Originally Posted by tazzy

Where I come from countries have union agreements, minimum wage laws, etc... people working in restaurants and pubs aren't making awesome money but they can survive just fine.
Tips should be just that, tips, given if the service was particularly good or if you've a particularly large bill (its just dickish to pay for a £96 meal with friends then sit around waiting for your £4 back, even if the service wasn't that great).
When somewhere includes a service charge they're just being knobs, so overly presumptious on your tip. It also really reduces the incentive for the staff to actually provide good service if they're getting their tip anyway.

I've never encountered a bar with a cover charge elsewhere in the world- unless this bar had live music or naked ladies or somesuch.

And...yep. In this occasion I thought it was one of those order at the counter bars. It really was just the bar which had a few seats at it then two little tables .

Tazzy, you are coming across as a little narrow-minded.
Expand your cultural awareness a little. Please.

Japan has no tipping culture. I think tipping is a more bizarre custom than table charges any day of the week.

You say other people are getting "agro" but then call people that employ table charges "knobs". Table charges in Japan have nothing to do with tipping.

[RobinMask]

Post Deleted.

[JBaymore]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

I just wondered if things were different in America (or cultures where tipping is common)? Do waitresses, for example, not get minimum wage or work solely for tips or something?

In America, "minimum wage" is set by first the Federal Government, and then the individual States. Whichever is HIGHER is the one that must be used. Federal is currently $7.25 per hour. Sounds good... but it is not.

Minimum wage in America is very, very far from a livable wage to start with. A single person cannot really live on minimum wage with a single 40 hour a week job. Here where I live that "livabale wage" is defined at about $18.00 an hour. THAT is what "minimum w age" should be........ but it isn't. And of couse, as is such a hot topic in America these days, there is no national health insurance... so that alone makes the idea of "minimum wage" work being livable totally preposterous.

But it gets worse... for people like wait staff in eating and drinking places. There is an "exemption" from the minimum wage laws in those kinds places for the employer. They have a separate and much LOWER minimum wage. The Federal one is $2.13 per hour!!!!! (You can see the "tipped employee" rates here: U.S. Department of Labor - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees )

So wait staff are totally dependent on tips for any semblance of a possibility of making any money. GREAT deal for the employer! Get staff available for a pitance (and without health insurance too probably), and then let the staff take on all the worry about how to actually make a living.

best,

...............john

[evanny]

7.25 is good. i work 14hrs a day on my weekdays for 2.5$ an hour. well 40$ a full day. and 7hrs after my lectures.
and it works great for me combined with university. i make 400$ a month. 200$ goes for food and rest is for other expenses.

stuff is cheaper here however it is not 3 times cheaper, but you say that wage in usa is 3 times bigger. so i don't think you can complain about 7.25 an hour + if you have at least some skills you probably can make those 15$ an hour easily.