Sea Urchin

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

Flan is a spanish custard (faintly vanilla) with a glazing of caramelized sugar (no milk).

And this is the same as pudding?

[MMM]

It's not "pudding" it is "purin".

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MMM

It's not "pudding" it is "purin".

I went, I googled, enlightenment followed.

USA 'pudding' = UK's 'angel delight'
UK 'pudding' = just about anything, even stuff with kidney in it.
Japanese 'purin' = steamed vanilla custard (+ caramelish sauce, sometimes)
Creme caramel = baked vanilla custard with caramel in it + caramel sauce.
Spanish flan = baked purin.

[sushichef]

french fries and sugar....doughnuts!

[steven]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I went, I googled, enlightenment followed.

USA 'pudding' = UK's 'angel delight'
UK 'pudding' = just about anything, even stuff with kidney in it.
Japanese 'purin' = steamed vanilla custard (+ caramelish sauce, sometimes)
Creme caramel = baked vanilla custard with caramel in it + caramel sauce.
Spanish flan = baked purin.

I don't know much about the UK side of the story (or about any country other than America)... but what I do know is that when my mom came to Japan I gave her some purin. It had only Japanese on it (which my mom can't read). My mom also knows extremely little about Japan. After she took a bite, I asked her what it was and without skipping a beat, she said "flan". I always thought the same. If you look at wikipedia, プリン will turn into flan when you turn the article into English from Japanese. MANY dictionaries have this wrong-- more so than dictionaries, though, textbooks have this wrong. Teachers also have this wrong. In your example you cite flan as being baked purin, when purin is probably just flan (it has been baked, and then cooled in the convenience store or wherever they have it).

Japanese 'purin' = steamed vanilla custard (+ caramelish sauce, sometimes)
I think that "sometimes" should be changed to most of the time, or usually. In other words- sometimes it dosen't have caramel. (it's a minor thing, but I think it should be emphasized that purin comes with caramel sauce most of the time and that is the overall "image" of purin in Japan).

Getting off topic (which I am more often than not criminal of), the same thing goes with kabocha always being called pumpkin. What American's call a pumpkin looks nothing like kabochas. I would argue that a kabocha is a type of pumpkin-- but it is nonetheless different. They are both some kind of squash, though. I don't even think they have similar flavors.

Yet another one: daikon. Both Japanese people and English speakers studying Japanese call these things radishes on a regular basis. They have a similar taste, but look nothing like each other.

I think Japanese people sometimes have a tendency to try to give an English name to everything (when studying English). I haven't a clue why they have that tendency, though. At any rate, I've seen things like "Chinese noodles" instead of "ramen" in text books. Chinese noodles is such a broad sounding term that even if someone has never heard of "ramen" before, they're still not gonna have a clue if you say "chinese noodles". The same thing with things like "buckwheat noodles" and what have you. Just call them by their Japanese names. I would hope that Japanese people decide to do the same. Likewise, I'm not confident that all Americans would know what you were talking about if you said flan-- so when talking to a Japanese person (or even an American who knows a little Japanese) in English, purin will get you a lot further.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by steven

If you look at wikipedia, プリン will turn into flan when you turn the article into English from Japanese. MANY dictionaries have this wrong-- more so than dictionaries, though, textbooks have this wrong. Teachers also have this wrong. In your example you cite flan as being baked purin, when purin is probably just flan (it has been baked, and then cooled in the convenience store or wherever they have it).

This is my point exactly, because 'flan' in the UK is absolutely in no way, the same thing as purin. This is a flan as far as i'm concerned: http://www3.sympatico.ca/kingpede/Yummy_Fruit_Flan.jpg, and what you call 'flan' we usually call creme caramel. The 'baked' comment was in response to another poster who explained that in her country, flan was baked in an oven, whereas most recipies for Japanese purin i've seen call for steaming in a steamer. Two different cooking processes.

Originally Posted by steven

I would argue that a kabocha is a type of pumpkin-- but it is nonetheless different. They are both some kind of squash, though. I don't even think they have similar flavors.

yes, off-topic, but I think they're similar enough to warrant a cross over. Both are a type of winter squash, and the taste isn't so dissimilar at all; kabocha's just sweeter. The only real difference is size and skin texture; Pumpkin forms a hard shell whereas Kabocha is softer so for me a kabocha is more like a squash than a true pumpkin. They probably call it 'pumpkin' in the dictionaries for ease though; some countries don't bother to differentiate between squash and pumpkin at all- don't forget, not all learners of Japanese have the option to learn it in their native tongue, plenty learn it via English as a third language.

Originally Posted by steven

Yet another one: daikon. Both Japanese people and English speakers studying Japanese call these things radishes on a regular basis. They have a similar taste, but look nothing like each other.

This one you're wrong on. Compare the latin names for 'radish' and 'daikon'. They're both sativas; ie from the same family. A Daikon is a subspecies, but it's still a radish. Think about pears; they come in all shapes, sizes, flavors and textures according to subspecies, but they're all still pears.

Originally Posted by steven

At any rate, I've seen things like "Chinese noodles" instead of "ramen" in text books. Chinese noodles is such a broad sounding term that even if someone has never heard of "ramen" before, they're still not gonna have a clue if you say "chinese noodles". The same thing with things like "buckwheat noodles" and what have you. Just call them by their Japanese names.

I agree; somethings are just completely untranslatable, especially plants and foodstuffs. Then again, sometimes you really do need both. Imagine reading "それから火野君が南蛮漬を食べました" in your textbook with the vocab underneath as 南蛮漬 = nanbanzuke. Ok, sure you can infer that it's a food, but it doesn't tell you at all what it actually is. Even deciphering the kanji doesn't help. And for some people, the word 'ramen' can be just as incomprehensible. At least most people understand the words 'chinese' and 'noodles' and can infer enough meaning from that to gain a basic understanding.

[steven]

I see what you mean, but if it's a bit of a stretch to assume that you (if you were American at least) don't know what ramen is. Again, I don't know the situation in the UK-- is it common in the UK as well?

Thanks for the picture of what you guys call flan over there!! That is quite interesting. I see those all the time in Japan and actually didn't see too many of them in America. As far as purin being 'baked' flan, they do have purin that says 'baked' on it or even 焼きプリン... they don't taste all that much different to me. I didn't realize that most of them were steamed though, so I guess that was my mistake.

A daikon is definitely a type of radish, but I wouldn't suggest that calling it a radish is a good idea. I'd say just keep the daikon term to avoid confusion. When the people you're talking to go "what's that??" you can always say "It's a type of radish". This is instead of saying "radish" and having them tell you "you're crazy". This is probably one of those cases where you do need both the Japanese and the "English" version of the word (the English version being "it's a type of radish"). Let's put it this way, try google imaging "chinese noodles", "radish", and "pumpkin" and see what comes up. Ramen will make an appearance, as will daikon (much to my chagrin)--but maybe those daikon would account for people who have heard them referred to as "radishes" when studying japanese or another language before. Try flan, too, just for kicks. I thought it would change for google.co.uk, but surprisingly it didn't really seem to make a difference (I only tested it for flan).

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by steven

A daikon is definitely a type of radish, but I wouldn't suggest that calling it a radish is a good idea. I'd say just keep the daikon term to avoid confusion.

I don't recall ever hearing anyone in the U.S. refer to daikon as simply radish. Hoever, almost everyone I know combines the two - "daikon radish". The only time I ever hear otherwise is when the "radish" designation is omitted.

As for the flan vs pudding, there is a definite difference in the U.S.
Flan is the same as what French chefs call creme caramel. In fact I have a mexican cookbook that cross references it to "creme caramel".
Technically the only differences between a custard and a pudding is that pudding adds a thickener and the last stage of cooking is different.

When you make custard, add a thickener such as cornstarch or arrowroot and continue cooking & stirring till the mixture begins to thicken. Then you can pour it into a contaier or a pastry shell to cool. If you remove the custard from the heat before adding the thickener and allow it to bake in a slow over or bain-marie (water bath) till it sets, then it is still considered a custard.

I know more than a few Americans who would say the only difference is that custards are not flavored (basically milk & vanilla), while puddings are all the other flavors (chocolate, butterscotch, etc.) Or they may only distinguish them by noting that a custard is more solid and will set up on a plate once the cooking is complete.

Actually warm pudding and most uni I have had are about the same texture.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by steven

I see what you mean, but if it's a bit of a stretch to assume that you (if you were American at least) don't know what ramen is. Again, I don't know the situation in the UK-- is it common in the UK as well?

Chinese food is vastly more popular in the UK than it is in the US I think; although if you say 'chinese noodle' to the average Brit, they'll probably think of those slightly coarser egg noodles, which aren't quite ramen, but it's a close enough comparison. Ramen's pretty reasonably well known here though; Japanese food is getting more and more popular.

Originally Posted by steven

Thanks for the picture of what you guys call flan over there!! That is quite interesting. As far as purin being 'baked' flan, they do have purin that says 'baked' on it or even 焼きプリン... they don't taste all that much different to me. I didn't realize that most of them were steamed though, so I guess that was my mistake.

I think the British view of food names has stuck closer to French names than the American english lexicon. In Japan, I'm sure there must be some shops that bake it (maybe in a bain marie though, which is basically half-steaming it) but don't forget a lot of places in Japan don't have ovens like that. They're also used to cooking chawanmushi, which is basically a savory purin. You can do them both pretty much in the same way.

Originally Posted by steven

This is instead of saying "radish" and having them tell you "you're crazy". This is probably one of those cases where you do need both the Japanese and the "English" version of the word.

see, this amuses me a little because I've always just told people who asked, "it's radish" and I've yet to have anyone freak out on me. I think the google idea illustrates your point pretty well, but don't forget, more of the english language internet is hosted from America than the UK so that does bias it a bit.

[steven]

see, this amuses me a little because I've always just told people who asked, "it's radish" and I've yet to have anyone freak out on me. I think the google idea illustrates your point pretty well, but don't forget, more of the english language internet is hosted from America than the UK so that does bias it a bit.

I have been using this a lot lately to decide which words are used more and which phrases are more popular. What you say is totally true though, it doesn't paint a perfect picture because most of the internet is indeed American. I don't mean to be a jerk by saying this, but I feel like ultimately the spread of American English will go beyond what TV has done through the internet. I do suspect that some phrases used in the UK or even in other countries will also become part of everyday language that way, too. As a teacher, though, it's a nice tool. I grew up in southern CA so I consider what I speak to be pretty much what is on TV and most movies and stuff... but I always check a phrase through google and compare it to similar phrases and teach what comes out on top (hits wise). Most of the time it's what I say, but I do get surprised occasionally!

Chinese food is vastly more popular in the UK than it is in the US I think;
That may be true on the whole... but I think that in California that may not be the case. Especially in San Fransisco! Even in southern CA, though, there were a ton of Chinese restaurants. Just as a little useless tidbit of info, some Chinese study abroad students (who have been to Japan) said that Californian Chinese food was more faithful than Japanese Chinese food, which I found ironic considering the distances between the countries. I've heard this from Japanese people who have been to China and California before, too. I'll never know for sure until I go to China, though (if I ever go).

EDIT: Getting back on topic (which is probably a first for me), I thought what Nyororin said was insightful:

This kind of goes along the line of honey on cucumber tastes like melon, soaking cheap fish in mayonnaise tastes like toro, etc...

It doesn`t REALLY taste like it. It`s kind of "Now that you say it, I can kind of see the resemblance!" Or "It has a similar texture!"

I think this is the case. It's a placebo like effect. Very psychological. There are a lot of cynics who talk about this stuff all the time. Recently, a man named Ethan Winer had a seminar about a similar topic having to do with audio myths (in the music recording world, if anyone is interested).

I'll never forget the day when my high school wrestling team had to clean under the mats... it was one of the most interesting and horrible odors I'd ever smelled. I'm sure everyone's faces were turning colors when the teacher decided to say "imagine what you're smelling is like a fine cheese". It worked for about 10 seconds before reality decided to sink back in. I don't think anyone threw up that day, and that teachers comment may have saved the day (although throwing-up might not have been so looked down upon in high school wrestling as it's a great way to lose weight... 0_0). I'd probably be 6 feet instead of 5'11" if I didn't do wrestling... but I digress.