Kanji for JLPT 4

[jesselt]

So many people seemed really concerned about learning Japanese as fast as possible. It takes Japanese natives how many years from the time they start school to learn all of the standard Kanji? And learners want to learn them all in like 2-4 years? Good luck.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by jesselt

So many people seemed really concerned about learning Japanese as fast as possible. It takes Japanese natives how many years from the time they start school to learn all of the standard Kanji? And learners want to learn them all in like 2-4 years? Good luck.

4 years is doable for anyone of average intelligence with a desire to do so. Period. Hands down. Full stop. End of story. I had 1200 under my belt within three years of starting Japanese, and I was barely trying.

But agreed on the "learning Japanese" part. You can get very good if you study for a couple years and then move there for two straight years and speak Japanese at every opportunity. I pulled JLPT2 after doing that, but only living in Japan for one year. If I'd have been there another year, I would have likely hit 2000 kanji. Not sure about fluency, but my profs in the US told me that I could approach fluency (not native, obviously) if I stayed for two years, but not for one.

Of course, MMM's and Nyororin's statements call that into question.

The point remains: Japanese is not a four-years-and-out endeavor.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by jesselt

So many people seemed really concerned about learning Japanese as fast as possible. It takes Japanese natives how many years from the time they start school to learn all of the standard Kanji? And learners want to learn them all in like 2-4 years? Good luck.

Well said, Jesse.

For native English speaker Japanese study will generally go at 1/3 to 1/2 the speed of studying something like French or Spanish.

This means It takes two to three years for a student of Japanese to be at the same comprehension as it takes a student of French in one year.

Although someone might consider themselves fluent in French or Spanish after four years of major study, I would be suspicious of any university program that promises fluency in Japanese after four years. That level would take 8 to 12 years of study...which is why immersion is so useful.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

4 years is doable for anyone of average intelligence with a desire to do so. Period. Hands down. Full stop. End of story. I had 1200 under my belt within three years of starting Japanese, and I was barely trying.

But agreed on the "learning Japanese" part. You can get very good if you study for a couple years and then move there for two straight years and speak Japanese at every opportunity. I pulled JLPT2 after doing that, but only living in Japan for one year. If I'd have been there another year, I would have likely hit 2000 kanji. Not sure about fluency, but my profs in the US told me that I could approach fluency (not native, obviously) if I stayed for two years, but not for one.

Of course, MMM's and Nyororin's statements call that into question.

The point remains: Japanese is not a four-years-and-out endeavor.

I agree. I would say the average person, properly motivated, could pass JLPT level 1 in 4 years, especially if they are living in Japan for a lot of that time.

But let's make no mistake, just living in Japan is not a magic ticket to being able to pass that test. I know of people that have lived here 10 years plus and hardly speak much of the language (how on earth they are enjoying their life here is beyond me, but that is a different topic I guess). So what I am saying is you have to hit the books, and find supplements for your reading comprehension, simply existing here for a certain amount of time will not get you passed that test.

In reality, I think your average person who ends up seeing it through probably takes between 5-7 years before they get passed level one, its not that they could not do it in 4 or maybe even 3, it is just that they have a life, and a high level of language acquisition was not an immediate priority for them.

And yeah, passing a 4 year uni program in my opinion is not going to get you anywhere near fluent. In fact know a guy with a 4 year degree in Japanese and I doubt he could pass level two. Come to think of it I would say 70% of all degrees are crap, as far as actual knowledge value goes anyway, everybody just ends up forgetting everything.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by MMM

That's very nice of you to say, Kyle, but I think Nyororin is well above where I am at.

I`m really flattered.

I think that MMM is probably a bit above me when it comes to business correspondence. I haven`t actually seen any written by him, but he has a lot more experience with it than I so I am making the assumption.

I don`t really have much trouble watching the news unless they get into detailed political stuff - and then it becomes a combination of not knowing the terms and not knowing the workings of Japanese politics enough to "get" what they`re saying. Reading the newspaper is a lot better in this area as the kanji themselves give hints.
Made me feel a lot better when I was watching the news with SIL, and she asked FIL the exact same thing I was confused about... It seems she "got" around the same level of it as I did. About the same deal with the high school boy I teach, so I`ve come to the conclusion that unless you`re interested in that sort of thing to begin with chances are you`re not going to understand that much of it even if you`re a native speaker. Even in English, your language knowledge depends upon your interests - you`re going to know a lot less vocabulary pertaining to things you have little interest in.

My big weakness is handwriting kanji. As I never took part in any study program or course, there was never any dire need for me to memorize the writings... So I can read very well, but will die if anyone asks me to write things out by hand.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

I agree. I would say the average person, properly motivated, could pass JLPT level 1 in 4 years, especially if they are living in Japan for a lot of that time.

But let's make no mistake, just living in Japan is not a magic ticket to being able to pass that test. I know of people that have lived here 10 years plus and hardly speak much of the language (how on earth they are enjoying their life here is beyond me, but that is a different topic I guess). So what I am saying is you have to hit the books, and find supplements for your reading comprehension, simply existing here for a certain amount of time will not get you passed that test.

In reality, I think your average person who ends up seeing it through probably takes between 5-7 years before they get passed level one, its not that they could not do it in 4 or maybe even 3, it is just that they have a life, and a high level of language acquisition was not an immediate priority for them.

And yeah, passing a 4 year uni program in my opinion is not going to get you anywhere near fluent. In fact know a guy with a 4 year degree in Japanese and I doubt he could pass level two. Come to think of it I would say 70% of all degrees are crap, as far as actual knowledge value goes anyway, everybody just ends up forgetting everything.

I know at least twenty people from my uni who graduated with a degree in Japanese language. Only three of us were good enough to pass 2. One graduated and went to work for the Japanese Consulate and is now a PhD student in Japanese linguistics at Stanford. I'm not quite sure what the other is up to.

Edit Four of us. The other is now a television host in Japan. His vocabulary was always much stronger than mine (I was a booksmart guy in Japan, while he went out and partied with the natives), but my accent was less American. It was an interesting dynamic, and his skill always humbled me, because we'd started Japanese at the same time at university and had classes together.

But I still stand by my belief that my university churns out some of the best Japanese speakers of any university in the US.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

My big weakness is handwriting kanji. As I never took part in any study program or course, there was never any dire need for me to memorize the writings... So I can read very well, but will die if anyone asks me to write things out by hand.

This goes for me too, despite being able to read most Kanji I could probably not write more than 50 anymore, even with a gun to my head.

But I would not call this a weakness, in my opinion it is really not that necessary of a skill these days, and I would certainly not recommend any fledgling learners to spend lots of time on it.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

This goes for me too, despite being able to read most Kanji I could probably not write more than 50 anymore, even with a gun to my head.

But I would not call this a weakness, in my opinion it is really not that necessary of a skill these days, and I would certainly not recommend any fledgling learners to spend lots of time on it.

Do you have kids?
I used to feel that way - even the Japanese high school I spent time in allowed me to turn in things types out instead of handwritten...
And then I got married and had a kid.
Believe me, the thousands and thousands of things I have had to write (by hand, of course) since sending my son to school changed my feelings on that very quickly. Add that to the countless other things I`ve had to write and fill out because he has a disability...
It`s definitely a weakness.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Do you have kids?
I used to feel that way - even the Japanese high school I spent time in allowed me to turn in things types out instead of handwritten...
And then I got married and had a kid.
Believe me, the thousands and thousands of things I have had to write (by hand, of course) since sending my son to school changed my feelings on that very quickly. Add that to the countless other things I`ve had to write and fill out because he has a disability...
It`s definitely a weakness.

Ahh, I see. No I do not have kids and I guess I have not thought about it in that way. Anything I do professionally has always been typed, but I suppose there could be a lot of things in your situation. I usually just get by with being able to write my address. If you happen to enjoy video games though or have a nintendo DS, I hear there is a good game you can get for it to help you with your kanji writing. For what it is worth I do hope things will get easier for you.