Language help please

[Jerry1234]

Hello,

I keep coming across the following phrase:

．．．なければ　いきません

It seems to describe that something is not permitted, but I'm not finding a good translation/understanding of the phrase.

Thanks in advance.

Jerry

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Jerry1234

Hello,

I keep coming across the following phrase:

．．．なければ　いきません

It seems to describe that something is not permitted, but I'm not finding a good translation/understanding of the phrase.

Thanks in advance.

Jerry

If i'm thinking correctly, then that いきません should actually be いけません. Could you show is where you're finding the phrase?

Let's, for argument's sake, assume it's いけません and make a full sentence: 毎日学校に行かなければいけません
This means "(I) must go to school every day." The なければいきません translates to "must". "must not" is expressed as Verbてはいけません. Literally though, なければいきません is just a double negative "If you don't do X (the consequence) will be bad -> you must do X"

[Jerry1234]

Originally Posted by Columbine

If i'm thinking correctly, then that いきません should actually be いけません. Could you show is where you're finding the phrase?

Let's, for argument's sake, assume it's いけません and make a full sentence: 毎日学校に行かなければいけません
This means "(I) must go to school every day." The なければいきません translates to "must". "must not" is expressed as Verbてはいけません. Literally though, なければいきません is just a double negative "If you don't do X (the consequence) will be bad -> you must do X"

Yes, I misspelled. It is いけません.
A full sentence example from my study materials would be:

ここでまっすぐいっっては　いけません　まがらなけれ ば　いけません

My translation begins: "you cannot go straight here."
But, after the word "turn" (まがら）, I don't understand the use of the phrase: ...なければ　いけません.

I know the sentence tells the person to turn. If it read: まがらなければ　いけます, then it would make sense to me. But, in using いけません, it seems that the sentence says "you must not turn," when I know it should be saying "you must turn."

The use of this phrase is coming up a lot in my materials, and it seems that its using a negative to describe a positive action, which is thoroughly confusing me.

[hatsuto11]

Originally Posted by Jerry1234

Yes, I misspelled. It is いけません.
A full sentence example from my study materials would be:

ここでまっすぐいっっては　いけません　まがらなけれ ば　いけません

My translation begins: "you cannot go straight here."
But, after the word "turn" (まがら）, I don't understand the use of the phrase: ...なければ　いけません.

I know the sentence tells the person to turn. If it read: まがらなければ　いけます, then it would make sense to me. But, in using いけません, it seems that the sentence says "you must not turn," when I know it should be saying "you must turn."

The use of this phrase is coming up a lot in my materials, and it seems that its using a negative to describe a positive action, which is thoroughly confusing me.

You should not think about it that way! This is a set phrase with a fix meaning! I mean, even if it seems to be negative, in fact it expresses obligation and not prohibition! it is just like なければ　なりません, meaning 'must'. Negative verbs in Japanese change their meanings (or to be more precise, their English translation) into positive in such expressions. So you should not look at that phrase as if it was a combination of 2 words! Just memorize the meaning as if it was a single word! You should get used to such expressions because they are rly essential

[duo797]

Hatsuto is pretty right on this one. Don't think too much into this phrase, just use it as a set. the しなければいけません, しなければなりません have the set meaning 'must not do (verb)'. So 行かなければ行けません is 'Must not go'. Also, it's not so much that the negative verb becomes positive in the english translation. You have two negative verbs, (しなければ, なりません) acting as a double negative, which makes it positive. But yeah, the long and short of it is just look at these verb patterns (especially for prohibition and what someone must do) as set phrases with set meanings.

[Jerry1234]

ok, so this is a type of phrase that has its own independant rule, as would others; is that correct? I don't translate it as separate words, but use the expression with a specific meaning. A correct translation would then be, simply,

"you cannot go straight here, you must turn."

Is that correct?

[duo797]

Originally Posted by Jerry1234

ok, so this is a type of phrase that has its own independant rule, as would others; is that correct? I don't translate it as separate words, but use the expression with a specific meaning. A correct translation would then be, simply,

"you cannot go straight here, you must turn."

Is that correct?

Yeah, that's right. You have one too many っ's though in 行って（いって） and I don't know if the spaces are intentional or not, but that's how I would translate that text.

Edit: Just want to point out something from an earlier post of yours. It seems like you might be taking まがらなければ to be a positive construction, when it isn't. If you were to do the positive conditional using ～ば it would be 曲がれば（まがれば）. 曲がらなければ comes from 曲がらない->曲がらなければ. No offense if you already knew this, but I thought it best to point it out just in case.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Jerry1234

The use of this phrase is coming up a lot in my materials, and it seems that its using a negative to describe a positive action, which is thoroughly confusing me.

Other's already have explained it but that's why I said it is a double negative. In Japanese the standard is to say "You can't not do something" rather than "You must" but for simplicity's sake it's translated as "you must". It's just another example of how Japanese language tends to be round-about in meaning.

[Jerry1234]

I want to thank everyone for their help. I do understand the phrase and concept now. I'm doing self-study, so its great to be able to ask a question when I'm stumped like this.
Best Regards,
Jerry

[Jerry1234]

Originally Posted by duo797

Yeah, that's right. You have one too many っ's though in 行って（いって） and I don't know if the spaces are intentional or not, but that's how I would translate that text.

Edit: Just want to point out something from an earlier post of yours. It seems like you might be taking まがらなければ to be a positive construction, when it isn't. If you were to do the positive conditional using ～ば it would be 曲がれば（まがれば）. 曲がらなければ comes from 曲がらない->曲がらなければ. No offense if you already knew this, but I thought it best to point it out just in case.

BTW, you are correct. I had a spelling error. Jerry. No offense, did not know.