Help me to understand: おやすみ vs. おやすみなさい

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by chryuop

お待ちください...ever seen this phrase? Give a look at the different forms of 敬語 (けいご) and you will answer your question on your own.
There are ways to use "imperative" also when you have to be polite, they just have a different "color".
Now, some of those are used into regular talk (the way I see it) just like お休み(ください not there, but might as well be).
EDIT: Let me get better what I meant. Honorific and humble verbs are made adding the お to the pre ます form and なさる is the honorific form of the verb to do. Basically what you do (I hope I am not wrong) is transform the verb into a noun and then add the verb "to do". Not much different from those many verbs made of a Chinese origin kanji noun+する like 勉強する.
As per お食べください, the verb to eat in humble and honorific changes completely, that's why the example you made wouldn't work.
I hope I am not too far off

I have seen that phrase many times, however that is not what I am talking about. お（なになに）ください is very common. What i am talking about is you would not attach an お to say this construct: 食べなさい、飲みなさい etc... the ending here is なさい not ください。Like　お食べなさい、お飲みなさい　I mean I suppose it could be used, but i hardly hear people say it.

and i did some research and this is what I found..

｢お/ご～なさる｣
「なさる」「くださる」はもともとは「成される」「下 される」で、「成す」「下す」に助動詞「れる」が附い たものでした(*)。
(前の回答に「さ」に使役の意味があると言われたのは� �確ではありません。「成す」が他動詞だということな� �解りますが)
次第に「なされる」「くだされる」が一つの動詞のよう に感じられ、さらに「なさる」「くださる」に変化しま した。
単独ではどちらも活きて使われますが、前項のように「 お/ご～くださる」は活きて使われるのに対して、｢お/ご～なさる｣は古風に感じられ、｢お/ご～になる｣に席を譲ったと見ていいでしょう。
「お休みなさい」のような慣用句以外ではあまり使われ ることがなく、「先生がお読みなさる」は、よほど高齢 の方の言葉か方言と言ってもいいでしょう。

basically... its old school.

here is the site if anyone cares. ｢お/ご～になる｣、｢お～ください｣、｢お/ご～なさる｣という尊敬を表す文型が三つあ... - Yahoo!知恵袋

[Decimus]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

I am not sure what we are arguing about. My statement simply was that you cannot construct an imperative form （なさい） and put お at the beginning of the verb and sound natural. So if you wanted to use 休む in the imperative form （なさい） you would write it 休みなさい　not　おやすみなさい。just like you would not say お行きなさい　お飲みなさい、お運びなさい。I mean, i can confirm this with japanese friends to be sure, and if I am wrong i am wrong, but my feeling is that polite お and imperative -なさい do not mix.

I'm sure that 45 pages of google results would show that 「お食べなさい」 is likely to be a perfectly valid and natural-sounding construction. Just go ahead and read a couple of them.

Along with 「お行きなさい」, 「お飲みなさい」, and 「お運びなさい」.

And in case you'd missed chryuop's post, there's also 「お待ちなさい」

As well as this:

Originally Posted by chryuop

...There are ways to use "imperative" also when you have to be polite, they just have a different "color".
Now, some of those are used into regular talk (the way I see it) just like お休み(ください not there, but might as well be).
EDIT: Let me get better what I meant. Honorific and humble verbs are made adding the お to the pre ます form and なさる is the honorific form of the verb to do. Basically what you do (I hope I am not wrong) is transform the verb into a noun and then add the verb "to do". Not much different from those many verbs made of a Chinese origin kanji noun+する like 勉強する.
As per お食べください, the verb to eat in humble and honorific changes completely, that's why the example you made wouldn't work.
I hope I am not too far off

Rick, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that imperative="not polite". This is completely wrong. 「-てください」 is also an imperative, for example.

[RickOShay]

Yes I googled them too just to be sure, but i was not convinced just by that.. so read my reply to chryuop

So yes, you are right, technically you can use お in front of the imperative, but it is not really of standard usage anymore. So my I still disagree with robhol that you would use　おやすみなさい to have an imperative meaning.

[Decimus]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

I have seen that phrase many times, however that is not what I am talking about. お（なになに）ください is very common. What i am talking about is you would not attach an お to say this construct: 食べなさい、飲みなさい etc... the ending here is なさい not ください。Like　お食べなさい、お飲みなさい　I mean I suppose it could be used, but i hardly hear people say it.

and i did some research and this is what I found..

｢お/ご～なさる｣
「なさる」「くださる」はもともとは「成される」「下 される」で、「成す」「下す」に助動詞「れる」が附い たものでした(*)。
(前の回答に「さ」に使役の意味があると言われたのは� �確ではありません。「成す」が他動詞だということな� �解りますが)
次第に「なされる」「くだされる」が一つの動詞のよう に感じられ、さらに「なさる」「くださる」に変化しま した。
単独ではどちらも活きて使われますが、前項のように「 お/ご～くださる」は活きて使われるのに対して、｢お/ご～なさる｣は古風に感じられ、｢お/ご～になる｣に席を譲ったと見ていいでしょう。
「お休みなさい」のような慣用句以外ではあまり使われ ることがなく、「先生がお読みなさる」は、よほど高齢 の方の言葉か方言と言ってもいいでしょう。

basically... its old school.

here is the site if anyone cares. ｢お/ご～になる｣、｢お～ください｣、｢お/ご～なさる｣という尊敬を表す文型が三つあ... - Yahoo!知恵袋

Yes, because Yahoo Answers is an authoritative source. And yes, because lack of evidence proves that something is false. And yes, because anecdotal evidence definitely trumps everything else, even if there's textual evidence to the contrary.

You're committing a lot of logical fallacies here.

Here's a 'counterexample' from Yahoo. Note that 「お/ご-なさい」 was (claimed to be) used in a commercial.

In particular, see this:

34.3 Ｖ－なさい
　
　この動詞の形は中立形です。不規則動詞も中立形で「し なさい・きなさい」
です。「なさい」は敬語動詞「なさる」の命令形です。「お－Ｖ－なさる」の
「お」がとれた命令形です。「お」を残した形は丁寧な（柔らかい）言い方に
なります。

　　　　　お入りなさい。
　　　　　そこにお掛けなさい。

　 「Ｖ－なさい」は「丁寧な命令」などと言われることも あります。親が子供
に対して、先生が生徒に対して使ったりします。

　　　　　早く食べなさい。
　　　　　これをもって行きなさい。

　あいさつの「お休みなさい」は「休む＋なさい」の形 から来ています。

　「見る」「いる」「来る」は「見なさい」「来なさい 」「いなさい」の形は
ありますがそれに「お」を付けることはできません。

　　　　　×お見なさい　　　×おいなさい　　　×お来 なさい

　そのかわりに、尊敬語の「御覧になる」「おいでにな る」の尊敬動詞の部分
に「なさい」が付けられます。

　　　　　あれをごらんなさい。
　　　　　しばらくここに／こっちへ　おいでなさい。

　さきほどの「お休みなさい」も「×お寝なさい」の代� ��りに「寝る」の尊敬
語「お休みになる」を使った言い方だと言うことができ ます。

　また、「なさい」を省略した「ごらん。」「おいで。 」「お休み。」もよく
使われます。「食べる」の場合は「お食べなさい」「お 上がりなさい」のどち
らも使います。もちろん、「お上がりなさい」のほうが 丁寧です。

　「お上がりなさい」は、「家に上がる（入る）」の意 味でもよく使われます。

　「～なさい」には「よ」のほかに「ね」も付けられま す。どちらも少し女性
的な言い方になります。

　　　　　食べなさいよ。
　　　　　必ず行きなさいね。

Here's an authoritative source:

第２１３回研究発表会（２００４年４月２４日　於：國學院大學）


明治期東京語の命令表現の諸相
発表者／陳　慧玲氏（明治大学大学院）

　陳氏の発表は、明治期の東京語における命令表現につ いて、・それにはどのような種類のものがあって、・そ れらが明治期にどのような変遷を遂げて現代にいたって いるのかについての見通しを述べる、というものであっ た。
　まず、明治三年から四五年にいたる三五篇の資料を選 び、そこから、狭義の命令表現を抽出すると、四六三六 例を数えるが、そこに現れる二〇〇ほどの命令表現形式 を、話し手の位相および聞き手との関係に着目して分類 していくと、三二の類型に集約でき、その中には、階層 に偏りのないものと、偏りの観察されるものがあること が見てとれる。
　次に、階層に偏りのないものを具体的に見てみると、 「お～なさい」「～なさい」「～て」「～てください」 「尊敬語＋てください」「お～ください」のような、現 代日本語の命令表現としても普通に用いられる形式が含 まれていることが分かった。　さらに、全ての階層で用いられているわけではない形 式のうち、現代日本語の命令表現と関わりのあるような ものを見てみると、「～てくれ」「動詞命令形」「～て ちょうだい」「～ておくれ」「いらっしゃい」「～てい らっしゃい」のようなものを挙げることができるが、こ れらは、話し手が男性・女性のいずれかに偏るのみであ り、明治後期に衰退したとみられる命令形式が、さらに 局限された階層でのみ用いられるものであったことを考 慮すると、より共通性の高い形式であると言える。
　質疑では、「命令表現」の定義、個別例の吟味などに ついて、議論が交わされた。　　（小野）

More results from google.

I grant you that the 「お/ご-なさい」 is uncommon when compared to its alternatives, but that does not make it any less valid. Even if it's somehow no longer standard (which I doubt), robhol was still technically correct as he in no way claimed that the sentence would be either a command or request; he merely stated that it was (in the) imperative (mood). Which it is.

(Coincidentally, I happen to have the same surname as the writer of the publication.)

[Decimus]

Also, 「お待ちなさい」

I seem to recall that it's rather common in anime and manga anyway. Usually uttered by the Ojou.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Decimus

Yes, because Yahoo Answers is an authoritative source. And yes, because lack of evidence proves that something is false. And yes, because anecdotal evidence definitely trumps everything else, even if there's textual evidence to the contrary.

You're committing a lot of logical fallacies here.

Here's a 'counterexample' from Yahoo. Note that 「お/ご-なさい」 is (claimed to be) used in a commercial.

In particular, see this:


Here's an authoritative source:


More results from google.

I grant you that the 「お/ご-なさい」 is uncommon when compared to its alternatives, but that does not make it any less valid. Even if it's somehow no longer standard (which I doubt), robhol was still technically correct as he in no way claimed that the sentence would be either a command or request; he merely stated that it was (in the) imperative (mood). Which it is.

(Coincidentally, I happen to have the same surname as the writer of the publication.)

Well I already conceded that you are technically correct. However upon calling up two of my Japanese friends they confirmed what I had been feeling. They said that おーなさい in general sounds old, and that nobody would ever say おやすみなさい to mean "Go to bed".

Anyhow I misunderstood the meaning of imperative as you are using it apparently cuz I always thought it to be a command or request. So if that is what robhol meant too, then I still disagree with him.

And yes your article is certainly an authoritative source, however, in practical terms i think it is more significant how the everyday native speaker of a language feels about its usage. After all language changes and it is the speakers who change it.

[Decimus]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

Anyhow I misunderstood the meaning of imperative as you are using it apparently cuz I always thought it to be a command or request. So if that is what robhol meant too, then I still disagree with him.

...

I thought that I was being careful in making sure the meaning of 'Imperative' was clear enough, as I defined the (official meaning of the) word 'Imperative' no less than three times (including via embedded links), starting from post #6.

Oh well, glad that misunderstanding is out of the way. Which brings us to...

Originally Posted by RickOShay

...and that nobody would ever say おやすみなさい to mean "Go to bed".

I don't think that anybody in this thread has ever mentioned that 「おやすみなさい」 means "Go to bed". This includes robhol:

Originally Posted by robhol

Both of them are used as "sleep tight" or "good night" or something to that effect. Literally, the former means rest (noun) while the latter is an imperative.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Adverb

literally (not comparable)

1. (speech act) Word for word; not as an idiom or metaphor.

When he said Houston weather is warm and you never need a long sleeve shirt, I literally threw all my long sleeve shirts away!

2. Simply; with reference to the first meaning of a word.

Ants got into my computer and literally scrambled my data: Bugs were in my hardware.

I think his meaning is clear enough, and his use of the word 'imperative' seems close to the definition I have provided after his post. That said, you might prefer for him to come and clarify matters in person.

Also,

Originally Posted by RickOShay

And yes your article is certainly an authoritative source, however, in practical terms i think it is more significant how the everyday native speaker of a language feels about its usage. After all language changes and it is the speakers who change it.

I rather not debate over the validity of this passage right now, so I suppose I'll just point out that you are moving the goalposts. (i.e. by changing the original argument.) 'though I have a feeling that this stems from a misunderstanding (of the original argument) instead of being intentional.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll need to blow off some steam now, as finding out that huge chunks of my posts are being selectively ignored is a particularly sore point of mine. I rather believe that it's no fault of yours (language barrier, maybe.), but I think I'll need to retire now anyway before I say anything that I would regret later.

[RickOShay]

I agree you are getting a little too fired up over this. My original argument with robhol was that おやすみなさい is not used in the imperative ie..
You gave me this definition which i read..."The imperative mood (abbreviated imp) expresses direct commands or requests as a grammatical mood. These commands or requests tell the audience to act a certain way. It also may signal a prohibition, permission, or any other kind of exhortation."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_mood.

So maybe I misunderstood something in there.. but whether it is to mean "Go to bed!" or "Please go to bed." (requests or commands) that is not how おやすみなさい is used. That was my argument. Then I mistakenly went on to imply that adding お to a なさい phrase is not correct. Upon further research I realized that was wrong, but I wanted to confirm its common usage. Which I found the yahoo link about and confirmed with two other native speakers that to them, it sounds old... and that おやすみなさい is not used as a request or command which is my understanding of what imperative means, and unless i have misread the definition you gave, that is what you are saying it means.

Now when it comes to sources, I am curious about the contradiction. I mean I talked to two other native speakers who confirmed what the yahoo link i showed said. But your authoritative source says otherwise... but my question is how does a native speaker's opinion, let alone 3, not hold any weight as you are suggesting? If I talk to 20 people tomorrow and they all confirm what I said.. are they all wrong? Anyhow like I said you basically already proved me wrong about the grammatical usage of おーなさい. So unless you still contest with me about using おやすみなさい in the imperative (not about being in imperative form but having imperative meaning) (as per the definition you gave me) then there is really nothing let to argue about is there?

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Decimus

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...9D&btnG=Search

Yes, it is a polite way of saying "good night", and while it is neither an order nor a request, it is still, technically, in the "imperative mood".

Of course, I'm splitting hairs at this point, and this argument is no doubt detrimental to the OP's understanding (and hence should be ignored by the him) but I would like to reiterate that robhol was technically correct.

And here something you said earlier, which is what I am saying. おやすみなさい is not a command or request... so while it is technically in the imperative form, it is not interpreted to mean "go to bed" or "please go to bed".. which robhol just said.. it is an imperative.. he did not say it is "in imperative form but does not have an imperative meaning". So.. when somebody says its an apple.. they usually mean its an apple.. but I suppose we need robhol to confirm this.

Anyhow I think we have been on two different wavelengths this whole time. So if you wanna drop it than thats fine with me.

[Decimus]

So just to be clear...

Argument 1: Whether Robhol used the word 'imperative' correctly or incorrectly.

Let's drop it for now until Robhol gets back and clarifies his position.

Argument 2: Whether 「お-なさい」 is a valid form of the imperative mood. (this is a purely grammatical question.)

Agreement : 「お/ご-なさい」 is a valid form of the imperative mood.

Argument 3: Whether 「お/ご-なさい」 is an obsolete form of the imperative mood.

You intend these as three separate arguments, and you do not think that you are moving the goalposts from Argument 1 to Argument 3.

Is that the case?

Or substitute whatever word you think is more appropriate in place of "obsolete".