Learning Japanese languages... how is it?

[Decimus]

Japanese also shares some phonetic and syntactical similarities with Italian -- in particular, four Japanese vowels are also present (and common) in Italian, while [u] is also rather similar. Both Japanese and Italian also have null subjects and a relatively free word order. Japanese is also mora-timed, which is similar to the syllable-timing (AKA machine-gun rhythm) in Italian. I believe French is also syllable-timed, and hence is closer to Japanese than English (which is stress-timed AKA morse-code rhythm) in this regard.

(Frankly, the stress-timing part of English is the hardest part of the language I'd found so far. Still can't get it right despite living in an English-speaking country for nearly a decade.)

That said, there are probably less overall similarities between French and Japanese then with English, so I agree with KyleGoetz that Japanese is probably going to be significantly harder for you to learn.

[File0]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

If it took you 4 years to get English, it will take you 6+ to get Japanese. I might even go so far as to say 8+.

French and English speakers can learn the other language quite quickly. Japanese is completely different in every way. Japanese is considered one of the most difficult languages for a native English speaker to learn. It's not exactly going to be easier for a native French speaker. There are even fewer similarities, seeing as how the vocabulary is even more dissimilar between Japanese and French.

He's only 17, which means when he started to learn English he was only 13. I think he will be able to concentrate on his goal more and more, so he might not need that many years to acquire Japanese in an acceptable level.

@NightBird
I'd say go for it, Japanese is a beautiful language of an admirable nation with the brightest future ahead of them - even in the automobile industry.

[steven]

I agree with RobinMask. I think that ideally, learning to speak the language before you try to write is the most "natural" way to learn a language. Learning how to write so early on might get you hung up on... the writing portion of the language so much and so long that it will take away from your ability to communicate, which is what I think most people are looking for when they learn a language. Similarly, even if you are interested specifically in learning how to read a language, learning how to speak it to a degree first will probably help your reading comprehension quite a bit.

However, while speaking can get you a really long way in a language (I think that maybe a century ago a lot of people didn't know how to read), learning to read can really help you learn vocabulary (as Kyle said). However, without the basics that give you solid speaking, the use of that new vocabulary will be confusing. Knowing how to speak will also help to read kanji that you might already know the words for.

Learning from a textbook is starting from the "written" perspective on a language (usually... sometimes it can be some kind of hybrid). While textbooks do provide good examples of "polite & safe" language, they are hardly realistic in my experience. They will give you quick results though, which is something that immersion fails at in my opinion.

I'd say decide how serious you are about the language and set some kind of goal and practice schedule. Watch a bunch of Japanese TV and take a look at a lot of written sources (of both stuff you're interested in as well as some stuff that you might not be as interested). Just take a look at it and decide if you really want to do it. I think if you're serious about it, it will be about a 10 year commitment. If you're 17 right now, you might be entering the "real world" soon... the reality of which means a lot less time to study (which was ironic for me because when I had time to study I couldn't study what I wanted because I was too busy studying stuff that I didn't even care to study to begin with!　 ).

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by File0

He's only 17, which means when he started to learn English he was only 13. I think he will be able to concentrate on his goal more and more, so he might not need that many years to acquire Japanese in an acceptable level.

As you age, it gets harder, not easier, to learn a new language.

That being said, it's still possible, and if OP wants to learn Japanese, he should go for it. Especially considering he's in France, where, worst case scenario, he could commute to Paris easily and find a crapload of Japanese speakers and probably some good language schools.

[steven]

I think that there are a few reasons for why learning a language gets harder as you age. While I'm sure there are reasons beyond those which I will explain, I'll just share the ones that I've noticed and maybe some tips on how to deal with them.

The first thing that I've noticed is that time gets shorter with age. It's kind of a gloomy way to look at things, but one year when you are 10 years old is 1/10th of your life. 1 year when you are 20 is 1/20th of your life. In otherwords, 1 year seems longer when you are younger. Even though I'm still relatively young, this is something I've felt. A year now feels like a month when I was really little. While there isn't really anything you can do to solve this, you can cope with it by having better time management. Creating schedules and checklists helps a lot. Don't spend too much time planning or you'll find you've run out of time, though. Also, don't load yourself with too much stuff or you'll burn out. This seems obvious to some people (although it wasn't always to me)... but it's easier said than done. I guess it'd be like trying to run a marathon for the first time even though you've taken shit care of your body for the last few years-- it'd just be physically impossible. You have to like build up to it. I think a good schedule is the same way-- you have to like mentally gear yourself for it.

The second thing I've noticed is that as people age their beliefs and language become almost like set in stone. Linguistically speaking, this is called "foissilization". It's funny because I've only heard it said about an L2(3, 4 etc) but never about things in general. What I'm talking about is the fact that you may have spent 20-30 years with your language and culture... so everything becomes "obvious" or "just the way it is". While this is important for most kinds of learning (like things that require deductive reasoning) I think it is detrimental to second language aquisition. One way I like to think of it is like someone who is color blind. Say someone can only see the shades of blue... and only shades of blue. Learning Japanese language and culture (from my English speaking perspective) is like adding a new color. Every now and then I catch glimpses of this "new color" and start to add it to my pallete. So at the beginning I might not have even noticed a new color there. Slowly I start seeing blue with a little bit of yellow in it. I practice the language with natives and speak fluently with interlanguage (which in my opinion would be green in this exapmple). Then I can start to separate the interlanguage from my first langauge and keep adding more "yellow" (in this case) to it until it becomes a definable primary color. It's not "perfect" but it's very close. I like to think of my English as not being a "primary" color, but an approximation of it. That's the best anyone can do with a language especially considering how languages evolve so frequently. I don't know how much this helps, but it's kind of like the English prhase "thinking outside the box" and opposite the phrase "tunnel vision".

Another thing is work or school obligations. Work takes a lot of time and you're tired when you're done (I guess work is like school if you bust your ass). So basically you might try to find a job in which you are exposed to the language or a job where it is appropriate to do a bit of studying when you have free time or during lunch or whenever. As far as school goes, you could try studying in college. Like Kyle said, it'd be a good idea to find a place like Paris where there'd be a lot of natives to interact with. You might even find they have a club at your school that you could join. That's a perfect way to add more of the "primary color" to your pallette.

So that was just three different things... and I'm sure there are a ton of other things you can come up with (like if you have kids or are married or have moved out or whatever). At any rate, it gets gradually harder to find time for language learning as an adult. On the flip side, as an adult you may find yourself in a situation which requires you to use what you've learned... this creates an immediate need for learning, in which case you will probably bite the bullet and learn as much as you can to get by. I think that what most people mean when they say "it's harder to learn a language as an adult" is that anyone who's like 9 years or older is considered an adult (which means their culture and langauge is pretty firmly ingrained in their brains). My response to that is the "fossilization" thing I was talking about.

Good luck!

[Realism]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

As you age, it gets harder, not easier, to learn a new language.

That being said, it's still possible, and if OP wants to learn Japanese, he should go for it. Especially considering he's in France, where, worst case scenario, he could commute to Paris easily and find a crapload of Japanese speakers and probably some good language schools.

No it's not.

That all depends on how you learn....you take it slow, do it on and off....then yeah...it will take you a long time.


BUT, if you just surround yourself with Japanese all day-everyday with absolute immersion then you'll be near fluent in about 1.5 years.


People don't want to take the time to do it though.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Realism

No it's not.

That all depends on how you learn....you take it slow, do it on and off....then yeah...it will take you a long time.


BUT, if you just surround yourself with Japanese all day-everyday with absolute immersion then you'll be near fluent in about 1.5 years.


People don't want to take the time to do it though.

I know people that have lived in Japan for many years, and they could write the words they know on a sheet of toilet paper.

One gentleman I know lived there for over a decade and his daughter was born there. In her five short years of life she learned more Japanese than her older-than-average father (and keep in mind she wasn't even speaking at all the first two years of her life).

[Realism]

Originally Posted by MMM

I know people that have lived in Japan for many years, and they could write the words they know on a sheet of toilet paper.

One gentleman I know lived there for over a decade and his daughter was born there. In her five short years of life she learned more Japanese than her older-than-average father (and keep in mind she wasn't even speaking at all the first two years of her life).

Being in Japan doesn't mean anything...

There are many reasons as to why someone who lives in Japan for 10+ years and doesn't know a thing. And it has nothing to do with being in Japan or not. It has to do with them (and some outside factors).

You probably work in a company that speaks English all day long. That can be a reason.

You only hang out with expats. That's doom.

The Japanese people you know probably only speaks English to you. Game over.

You do your best to avoid Japanese. Another one.

The way you study Japanese might be ineffective (too little...30 minutes a day nonsense will get you nowhere)


The Japanese people (or other people) you know discourage you in learning Japan by telling you how "hard" and "mystifying" it is. No foreigner can ever be fluent. That's another nail in the coffin.

Therefore, people get discouraged and become less and less confident about learning Japanese.

Japanese teachers and people telling you it would take 8 + years to be fluent. The hell with that. That's game.

And at home, you're not gonna look at Japanese. You're just gonna look at stuff from your own language.

You read books in your own language.

You watch movies in your own language.

They probably do their very best at avoiding Japanese.

That's doom and gloom right there. That will quickly put an end to your Japanese learning.

I live in Japan right now. I go to the bookstore almost everyday to read. I don't ever remember ever seeing a foreigner in there. Ever.

So these foreigners in Japan, aren't really "living" in Japan. They have created their own English enviornment where they speak English all day long.

So if these people living in Japan can be immersed in English all day long...


This guy who's trying to learn Japanese just needs to do the opposite. Fill his ears and eyes with Japanese all day long. And he doesn't even need to be in Japan to do it.


When I mentioned immersion I don't mean going to Japan, I mean just be exposed to the language all the time. You can order Japanese books from the internet, read Japanese websites, download Japanese TV shows...all this stuff.

[File0]

Originally Posted by MMM

One gentleman I know lived there for over a decade and his daughter was born there. In her five short years of life she learned more Japanese than her older-than-average father (and keep in mind she wasn't even speaking at all the first two years of her life).

It's a bit unfair to say. Children under the age of 6-7 still have the ability to achieve any language as their native one, despite of the origins they have. It all depends on the surroundings of the child.
After that age it might be easy to learn language without accent, than after puberty it depends on the individual. If he/she already knows a different language it could be easier to learn a third one, especially when the determination is solid.

[Realism]

And plus, the reason the kid knows more Japanese than the father is a simple one.

Because she was exposed to large amounts of Japanese all day long, maybe by watching TV or hanging out with other Japanese kids.

So she has exposed herself to Japanese for 3-4 years, which is like 20,000 hours or something.

She she has been exposed to Japanese for 20,000 hours already unconsciously and consciously.

While her dad has lived there for 10 years.....probably rarely listens to Japanese on any given day, and just reads, talks, and thinks in his own language all day long.