welfare system in Japan

[dogsbody70]

Please forgive me if there is another thread on this subject.

I believe that Nyrororin DID answer some queries way back-- but I cannot find them now.


As on the career-- rearing children-- thread welfare system was brought up-- so I do wonder about it in Japan.

One reads of japanese orphanages that are hidden away. I do not know if that is really true.


Where do unwanted children go? can they be adopted or fostered? we hear a lot about international adoptions from many countries.


Also is Abortion Legal in Japan?

Nyrororin-- you are the person who knows about these things. If you can find the original thread on this subject-- I would be very grateful to know about the welfare system regarding Children.


I heard on the radio the other day that in Ireland a woman can only have an abortion if there are medical reasons to do so.

I am not sure which part of Ireland--maybe someone can enlighten me.

In the old days here in UK it was all back street abortions often with dire results to the woman.

[JohnBraden]

I have heard that Japanese orphanages only accept adoptions from Japanese people. Perhaps that is to protect the child and have him brought up in the Japanese way.

I have also heard that some children in orphanages may not actually be orphans. They may have been brought there by mothers who can't actually care for them but still have some custody over them.

As I have said, these are things I've heard, and, while they may make some sort of sense to me, I cannot vouch for their validity....

[Nyororin]

I also can`t find a lot of what I posted in the past, so here goes.

Where do unwanted children go? can they be adopted or fostered? we hear a lot about international adoptions from many countries.

Regarding orphanages;

"In general actual orphans usually end up living with family - aunts, uncles, older siblings, grandparents, etc. As blood ties are considered most important, most people who are unable to have children invest huge amounts of time and money into trying... But don`t consider adoption.

Most of the children in Japanese "orphanages" aren`t orphans at all, but children who are there temporarily - at least on paper. It is VERY rare for a parent to give up rights to their child. Instead, they put them in a home if they are unable to raise them with the ultimate goal (again, on paper) of coming back to get them once the living situation has changed. Does that always happen? No, but as they do not give the children up there are very few opportunities for another family to take the child.

Is it technically possible to adopt? Yes. But as there is not really any sort of adoption policy, it is difficult for someone even living in Japan. Babies are simply not up for adoption to begin with - I think the starting age that Japanese law allows a Japanese child to be put up for adoption at is 3... But of course, as there isn`t a strong policy to begin with, I`m sure there are exceptions.

I`ve known 2 girls in the US who were supposedly adopted from Japan... They were both actually Korean, but were just adopted via Japan. "

Orphanages in Japan;

Generally, they aren`t "orphanages". They`re sort of childcare centers. As children who lose their parents (true orphans) almost always go to live with a relative - most of the children in care are put there by parents who do not feel they can raise them. There is no "giving up" the child - they are just placed in the home "temporarily" until the parents can resume care. Sometimes the parents never resume care and the child is raised entirely in the center... But that isn`t really the goal or purpose of the centers.

I would say that in the majority of cases, children are taken in by relatives even when it is just a case of the parents not wanting to care for the child.

Japan does not have an international adoption policy. It doesn`t even really have a domestic adoption policy. It is virtually impossible to give a child up. The state does not take over parental rights - they stay with the parents until the parent either dies (automatically shifted to the next blood relative, if I recall correctly), or the parent finds someone who wants to adopt and transfers the rights to them. In other words, there are no children without guardians. Children can be removed from the care of their parents, put into a center to protect them, but in the end - the actual guardian rights remain with the parent. The state can intervene to make sure the parent does not harm the child - but it cannot grant the rights to another person without parental consent. As blood ties are incredibly important in Japan, it is rare that a parent (regardless of their situation) will agree to allow their child to be raised as someone else's. In the same way, it is rare for someone to want to raise a child that is not related in some way.

I do not believe that the care centers are "hidden away", really - but more that they aren`t advertised as such. One girl I went to school with was staying at a care center... But talked about it as a temporary home. Her mother died and her father had multiple business trips each year preventing him from really "parenting" (in my understanding - she wasn`t really too talkative about the subject and I didn`t ask, so it is mostly what I heard through others.) She would spend several months living with her father when he was in town, and the rest of the time in temporary housing.
I also know a woman in my building who spent 3 or 4 years of her childhood in one when her mother became depressed after having her younger sister. When her mother recovered, she went home, and things went back to "normal".

It would be a disservice to those who are in that system to advertise the fact that they are receiving some kind of care service when it truly may only be a short term sort of thing.

Also is Abortion Legal in Japan?

Legal, but not simple and easy.

A past post regarding abortions - probably the one you are thinking of from me;

"Regarding abortion in Japan.

It is NOT as simple and easy as things seem to make it look. I had to have one the end of last year for medical reasons... (ie. the baby had attached at the opening to the right fallopian tube due to severe uterine scarring caused by the horrific events of my last pregnancy.)

You would think that with the opinion of two different doctors being that there was virtually no chance of the baby surviving, and that to leave it past the 10th week or so would be risking my life... That getting a procedure done would be easy.

It`s not. Japan has some very strict policies on getting abortions the normal route. First, no major hospitals perform them. There is a policy of "save the life at all costs" in normal hospitals. They are only done by private clinics unless the death of the mother is eminent. You NEED the permission of the father. He has to fill out a number of forms and identify himself as the father. In the case that he cannot be located, I was told that the parents would have to be notified. This was regardless of age and I believe it had something to do with potential complications. I also had to present my "reasons" for the procedure. There was also a minimum week wait. No religious hoops, but still hoops all the same.

There are indeed women who are turned away because they cannot go through the hoops. In the past it was fairly common for a regular obstetrician to offer it as part of their services, but there has been a huge crackdown on those who did this without going through the proper paperwork. Now there are a handful of obstetricians offering the service and many dedicated clinics. (There are doctors who still offer it secretly, but once the rumor goes out they tend to be cracked down on pretty promptly. From what I`ve heard, for not going through the hoops they would charge twice the regular fee.)

In my case we chose to go to a private clinic to have the procedure done because the hospital would only do so once my life was in direct danger. To me, personally, removing a tiny speck and removing a formed baby are very different things regardless of the necessity. We found a private clinic and paid out of pocket. (Insurance would only cover it once it was deemed necessary to save my life.)

Which brings me to another point. It is expensive. I don`t know what it costs in other countries, but it was a 400,000yen deal for us. This is NOT the type of money you can just come up with out of the blue, especially if you`re young and are keeping it a secret from your parents. "

Regarding the general welfare system in Japan -
There is an incredible amount of support for people with disabilities, and for people in poor financial situations. You just need to apply for it (nothing is automatically given to you).
There is nowhere near the numbers of people dependent upon these services though, as society and expectations are quite a bit different than in the US (and apparently the UK).

Support for single parents who are below the poverty line is amazing, in my opinion. They will provide you with housing (usually in direct vicinity of a preschool or elementary school), take care of over half of the utility costs, have food provided (usually from the same services that provide school lunches), and give employment support. The system tends to be very hands on, so I think there are fewer opportunities for it to be abused.
Of course, because of the way society is, there are fewer people using the system to begin with. Single parents tend to be much rarer, and there tends to be a net of family support when there are difficulties with income.

Also - there is very little drug use in Japan, so a distinct lack of addicts using government support.

[seiki]

I would just like to say that was a very informative and interesting post nyororin.

[Jeshire]

Originally Posted by seiki

I would just like to say that was a very informative and interesting post nyororin.

Agreed. Thank you, Nyororin.

[Nyororin]

Another thing I forgot to mention.

As blood ties are important, it is not only rare for a parent to give up their child to a non-relative to be raised... It is also rare for there to not be a relative willing to take the child in... And even in cases where there is no family able to care for the child, it isn`t rare for there to be a family friend wanting to see the child raised by someone originally close to the family.
It is more common than many people realize for there to be siblings who are really "cousins". A lot of people assume the situation is something manufactured for anime - the common plot of a "brother" and "sister" living together who are either not related at all or very distant relatives falling in love, etc. The family situation is common enough that most people can think of someone whose family was that way.
(The falling in love part is entirely fabricated - the Westermarck effect pretty much rules it out unless there is something severely wrong with one of the siblings to begin with.)

[dogsbody70]

thank you Sooooooooo Much for that detailed information Nyroroin.


I want to save those so that I do not pester you again.


I will comment later. thank you very much indeed.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Another thing I forgot to mention.

As blood ties are important, it is not only rare for a parent to give up their child to a non-relative to be raised... It is also rare for there to not be a relative willing to take the child in... And even in cases where there is no family able to care for the child, it isn`t rare for there to be a family friend wanting to see the child raised by someone originally close to the family.
It is more common than many people realize for there to be siblings who are really "cousins". A lot of people assume the situation is something manufactured for anime - the common plot of a "brother" and "sister" living together who are either not related at all or very distant relatives falling in love, etc. The family situation is common enough that most people can think of someone whose family was that way.
(The falling in love part is entirely fabricated - the Westermarck effect pretty much rules it out unless there is something severely wrong with one of the siblings to begin with.)

that is really interesting nyrororin. Here in UK often grandparents are not allowed to take in a grand child if social services don't want them to. Too often they prefer to send a child away for adoption to Strangers-- rather than family. Say the mother or father is on drugs-- often social services do not even trust the grand parents to look after the child properly. Not in every case of course-- but it certainly is not automatic-- even with other relations.

There have been court cases to try to prevent a child being sent to strangers.


There have been cases of genetic attraction when in Latter years a woman traces her father-- and falls in love with him. or vice versa.

I am not saying this is ALWAYS the case-- but it definitely does happen.

[steven]

Nyororin that was indeed an interesting post! dogsbody70 always asks the most interesting questions and you have all of the best answers.

I wanted to make a comment about the welfare housing situation though. I'm sure they vary a little depending on the area. One day I was driving to the mountains as I always do, but I had stopped off at one of my local hardware stores on the way there and took kind of a different road than I usually do. I stumbled upon almost like a slum. My wife happened to be in the car with me at the time and I asked her what the deal was as I had never seen anything like that in Japan up to then. She said it was probably government/welfare housing. It was pretty crazy... there were like holes in the walls and windows missing and the whole nine yards. At the time it was hot and humid so I'm sure that was working out, but now that it's winter and snowing almost every day I'm not so sure. I still don't know for sure what they were though so I really can't say.

As far as "orphans" go (situations where the parents are having a hard time with their kids or have jobs which are not condusive to raising kids)-- every case that I've heard of, which is not many, seems to have ended up with an aunt/uncle getting the child.

I don't know how much relavance this has in cities now-a-days, but I can imagine that this practice stems from houses and land kind of staying in the family (where the oldest son gets the house and where the younger sons might build a house of their own on that same land or marry someone who is the oldest daughter where there aren't any sons involved).

Dogsbody, what you're describing in the UK is interesting. What you're saying is that if the parents were on drugs or something like that then the courts would be kind of against sending the kids to the grandparents, right? To me that kind of makes sense because if you think about it the parents that turned to drugs were raised by those grandparents... I know this isn't true some of the time, but I think that the way the grandparents raised their kids might have influenced their drug use... so why start the process all over again with the grand children? I've kind of seen that happen in America before...

Which makes me wonder-- if people get caught with meth in Japan do their kids get taken away or anything along those lines? I know in America after the umpteenth time after being caught with hard drugs kids start getting taken out of the picture... but with Japan being more strict in regards to drugs I wonder if they don't have any policies like that?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by steven

I wanted to make a comment about the welfare housing situation though. I'm sure they vary a little depending on the area. One day I was driving to the mountains as I always do, but I had stopped off at one of my local hardware stores on the way there and took kind of a different road than I usually do. I stumbled upon almost like a slum. My wife happened to be in the car with me at the time and I asked her what the deal was as I had never seen anything like that in Japan up to then. She said it was probably government/welfare housing. It was pretty crazy... there were like holes in the walls and windows missing and the whole nine yards. At the time it was hot and humid so I'm sure that was working out, but now that it's winter and snowing almost every day I'm not so sure. I still don't know for sure what they were though so I really can't say.

There is more of a chance that it was an area with a lot of abandoned houses (if it was houses and not apartments.) I have never heard of houses being maintained as welfare housing. It is all apartment building type stuff. There are a lot of areas with abandoned houses left to sort of rot... Were you sure that people were living in them? Or could they have been used as storage, if you saw people in the vicinity?
Company housing is also a possibility. If there were any large factories in the area - or used to be factories - there is a fair chance that it was originally company housing that is now no longer maintained.

Anyway though, holes-in-the-wall and missing windows does not strike me as welfare housing. There are standards that have to be kept for that. It sounds more like company or just flat out abandoned stuff.

There are a lot of danchi out there that are in bad condition, set to be torn down... After the final residents leave. There is usually one or two old old women who refuse to move out for their final years, so they have a huge virtually empty building sitting there rotting for years.

Real "welfare housing" are heavily discounted rooms in normal danchi. A room will often be provided for free or for half or quarter the normal cost. There doesn`t seem to be a whole lot of dedicated welfare only housing. It tends to be more support for housing in a regular danchi. There doesn`t seem to be a difference even in the countryside - danchi are sort of nationwide.

I know this isn't true some of the time, but I think that the way the grandparents raised their kids might have influenced their drug use... so why start the process all over again with the grand children? I've kind of seen that happen in America before...

I think that in these sort of cases it isn`t so much that the grandparents are thought to be the root of the problem, but that they are more likely to hand the kids back over. They`re more likely to have more faith in the parents, so give them more access to the children than they should be given.
I am really very up in the air about "blaming the parents" when it comes to life decisions made by adults or near-adults. My mother was, well, quite a mess... But I find it very hard to think that my grandparents had anything to do with it. Her outcome was up to circumstances and her own personality driving her decision making.

My uncle - a successful architect. My mother - a drugged up mess. My uncle #2 - doesn`t really count as he has a real mental disorder (was normal until the symptoms kicked in). My aunt - responsible and hardworking.

The only real mess in there is my mother. My uncle #2 is a mess, but, well, he has schizophrenia and refuses to stay on meds ... So it isn`t really my grandparent`s fault. The other aunt and uncle are fine, normal, and have not made messes out of their lives. My grandparents also raised me, and I certainly feel that I had an excellent upbringing while in their care.

Which makes me wonder-- if people get caught with meth in Japan do their kids get taken away or anything along those lines? I know in America after the umpteenth time after being caught with hard drugs kids start getting taken out of the picture... but with Japan being more strict in regards to drugs I wonder if they don't have any policies like that?

I believe the policy is the same as any other time parents are "unfit" - the children either go to family or to a center. A single offense is enough to get the unfit label... It`s also enough for one parent (who is not using drugs) to secure a divorce and the children.
Even a bit more indirectly it can lead to the children being put into care... An example I heard (far enough away from me that I can`t confirm it - friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend sort of thing) was that the father was caught and naturally lost his job... Was unable to provide money to support his (newly)ex-wife and children, and she in turn had no skills so could not support them. The children were put into a center until she could figure out what to do.