One Manga is closing down

[MMM]

Originally Posted by StonerPenguin

Honestly, I bummed it's gone -- but I think this is a great opportunity for manga publishers. The biggest reason why I don't buy manga (and believe me, I've bought a bunch as it is...) is because it's somewhat embarrassing to have all those kicking around and they take up a bunch of space. Moreover, the licensed U.S. translators (especially Viz) dick up the translations, edit/omit things, and has slow releases. Even people who don't mind paying (and don't know Japanese) would have to wait months for chapters to come out.

However, I think the publishers selling HQ downloads themselves is great! Especially RAWs (Raws are a pain to find and are often illegible anyway!) About 25% of the price of the original book seems fair to me. Come on publishers, capitalize!

A great opportunity for manga publishers? Hmm...not sure what that means.

I love the argument about "dicking up" the translations, therefore amateur translations by scanlators are better. There are a couple examples out there of translation choices some fans haven't liked, but I would like to hear your first-hand evidence of how manga publishers "dick up" the translations.

People treat translation like it is math. Translation is an art, some people will like your translation, some won't, but don't fall for the mistaken notion that there is a right and wrong in black and white in translation.

[StonerPenguin]

Originally Posted by MMM

A great opportunity for manga publishers? Hmm...not sure what that means.

I love the argument about "dicking up" the translations, therefore amateur translations by scanlators are better. There are a couple examples out there of translation choices some fans haven't liked, but I would like to hear your first-hand evidence of how manga publishers "dick up" the translations.

People treat translation like it is math. Translation is an art, some people will like your translation, some won't, but don't fall for the mistaken notion that there is a right and wrong in black and white in translation.

Hmm, I was agreeing with you... and you still became offended.. awesome.

I was merely pointing out that even people who don't mind paying have strong temptation for free online translations. If manga publishers want to make money 1.) they should offer fairly cheap downloads. 2.) they should try to keep a better pace with the Japanese releases (I realize that licensing, editing, and printing take time. However, if they offer manga through the internet the process should speed up considerably -- thus, their impatient fans won't stray as much.) 3.) By "dick up" translations, I mean Viz tries to westernize Japanese jokes and it comes out horrible. Also, Viz edits out gays and lesbians to a disgusting extent; why would I pay for a butchered story? I don't really have much of a problem with the translation so to speak. I dislike the editing Viz does to make it "more appealing" to Western readers. They need to give age warnings and leave it unedited or offer two versions.

By "this is a great opportunity for manga publishers" what I mean is, look at everyone here who's upset over the loss of manga sites. If manga publishers make manga available for immediate download, it will be easier for people to learn to pay for it rather than find the next site.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by StonerPenguin

Hmm, I was agreeing with you... and you still became offended.. awesome.

I was merely pointing out that even people who don't mind paying have strong temptation for free online translations. If manga publishers want to make money 1.) they should offer fairly cheap downloads. 2.) they should try to keep a better pace with the Japanese releases (I realize that licensing, editing, and printing take time. However, if they offer manga through the internet the process should speed up considerably -- thus, their impatient fans won't stray as much.) 3.) By "dick up" translations, Viz tries to westernize Japanese jokes and it comes out horrible. Also, Viz edits out gays and lesbians to a disgusting extent; why would I pay for a butchered story? I don't really have much of a problem with the translation so to speak. I dislike the editing Viz does to make it "more appealing" to Western readers. They need to give age warning and leave it unedited or offer two versions.

By "this is a great opportunity for manga publishers" is, look at everyone here who's upset over the loss of manga sites. If manga publishers make manga available for immediate download, it will be easier for people to learn to pay for it rather than find the next site.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "opportunity". I see now.

I don't disagree that online options would be nice for manga. I can't imagine that won't be seen and expanded on soon.

The problem with Japanese humor in manga is that it rarely translates into something comprehensible (or funny) for an English speaking audience. You have to Westernize the jokes or else it comes out as gibberish.

I was actually part of a team of translators that worked on certain Viz titles. The book would be translated in Japan, then I would check and "explain" all the jokes to the next person, who would transfer those "jokes" into something that would makes sense and be funny in English. Without doing that people would have put the book down after five pages...trust me.

If you want to read the original Japanese, then read the original Japanese, but it is literally impossible to translate both the exact same joke, and the experience of reading it 99 times out of 100. So you have to choose one or the other. Sometimes companies choose A), which means pages and pages of footnotes which is an accurate translation but isn't funny, or transfer the joke into something funny in English. Thankfully most publishers choose to do that.

[StonerPenguin]

Oooh, I didn't know you had worked for Viz, no wonder you're bothered *ensue emasculating giggles
But seriously, I do understand the problem of jokes "lost in translation". Viz (I don't know if they did FLCL) and other translators have done a good in job keeping it funny. There was a recent thing Viz did that really bugged me, but I can't remember it at the moment. Ah, it's a fine line. But they don't need to edit and censor.

I don't care much for English translated manga anymore but it sure is handy to instantly pull up another person's translation when I get stuck or confused. I wouldn't mind paying for that.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by StonerPenguin

Oooh, I didn't know you had worked for Viz, no wonder you're bothered *ensue emasculating giggles
But seriously, I do understand the problem of jokes "lost in translation". Viz (I don't know if they did FLCL) and other translators have done a good in job keeping it funny. There was a recent thing Viz did that really bugged me, but I can't remember it at the moment. Ah, it's a fine line. But they don't need to edit and censor.

I don't care much for English translated manga anymore but it sure is handy to instantly pull up another person's translation when I get stuck or confused. I wouldn't mind paying for that.

Emasculating giggles are not really appreciated. Are you saying if you were offered the same work you wouldn't take it? I am proud of the work I did, and would do it again.

Again, please give specific examples of editing and censorship.

Also keep in mind that the audience has changed over the last decade. 10+ years ago people wanted flipped, wanted easy to remember Western names, etc. Now it is the opposite.

[StonerPenguin]

Originally Posted by MMM

Emasculating giggles are not really appreciated. Are you saying if you were offered the same work you wouldn't take it? I am proud of the work I did, and would do it again.

Again, please give specific examples of editing and censorship.

Also keep in mind that the audience has changed over the last decade. 10+ years ago people wanted flipped, wanted easy to remember Western names, etc. Now it is the opposite.

Ah, the giggles are a JOKE.. jeez. I am teasing you. If that wasn't clear, I'm making it clear now. It's a joke. Lighten up

Back on subject; "Are you saying if you were offered the same work you wouldn't take it?" Hell no, you might have noticed my Japanese totally sucks I think it's great you're a translator. You have every right to be proud of your translations. I know I would be I'd ecstatically shit a brick if offered the opportunity!

I don't buy much manga but my little brother buys Viz's Monthly Shounen Jumps every month. I won't lie -- I read them.

In Ultimo, (which I DON'T READ ACK, my 10-year-old little sister does);
Viz'z SJ edits naked mild nudity (naked bottoms that is)
The character Rune is gay, in love with the protagonist (because he's a reincarnated girl or something). Viz's version left that out and substituted it "I'm gonna destroy (?) your girlfriend because we're super BFFs!"

In Bleach, (if I remember correctly; I just flipped through a volume at BAM) they edit out Chizuru's lesbianism. Instead they replace her lines of loving Orihime with "I admire you, I wish I could be like you." (or something along those lines) I feel it really changes the story. :/

Great, now I look like a giant nerd!

[MMM]

I think it gets a little tricky when you get to comics for young kids. I agree censorship is wrong. The Japanese publisher might be saying "if you want to publish Shonen Jump" you have to print all the titles, including X, Y, and Z". The American publisher is thinking "We can't include this mature title with this all ages title," but the thinking in Japan is different. Children are less sheltered from adult issues.

I hope the tankoubons remedy these issues, but who knows?

[StonerPenguin]

Yeah, tankoubon frequently have less censoring but the Bleach example I pulled up was from Viz's tankoubon version.

Oh well, I guess I'm running this into the ground. You get it - Less censorship, cheap downloads and we'd all be happy

[MMM]

Originally Posted by StonerPenguin

Yeah, tankoubon frequently have less censoring but the Bleach example I pulled up was from Viz's tankoubon version.

Oh well, I guess I'm running this into the ground. You get it - Less censorship, cheap downloads and we'd all be happy

I think censorship has gotten better in recent years. Dark Horse got a little criticism for a censored page in Blade of the Immortal a few years back (it was a graphic image involving a child, if I remember correctly) and they since have entered a "censor-free era". If a title has a single image they don't feel comfortable publishing, then they won't publish any of it. This seems like is is more of the direction some publishers are going. I hope it stays that way.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MMM

I think censorship has gotten better in recent years. Dark Horse got a little criticism for a censored page in Blade of the Immortal a few years back (it was a graphic image involving a child, if I remember correctly) and they since have entered a "censor-free era". If a title has a single image they don't feel comfortable publishing, then they won't publish any of it. This seems like is is more of the direction some publishers are going. I hope it stays that way.

I think the awful translation thing is changing, but I remember a few years ago my housemate coming back complaining about this police manga she'd bought and the translation edit was pretty shoddy. There were blatant typo's and random off-setting, bad re-formatting for the sound effects, and for some ungodly reason they'd gone overboard with translating the slang japanese to this weird 1980's sort of ghetto-patter. The entirety of my manga collection consists of some old sailor moon manga I got way back in 2000, but most of them have hiccups in the edit here and there, like "sha" instead of "she". It's sloppy. It wouldn't be acceptable in a novel, but for some reason with manga, it's let slide by the people who should be controlling for it.

I guess its similar to my refusing to buy classics printed by this certain publisher (also bad for edit); if there's typos and the proofreading has clearly been done in a slap-dash way, you feel like a) the publisher doesn't give a crap about the quality, or the reader or the material, they just want your money and b) it's overpriced for a bad deal, even if it's cheap. If I can then find the same material online for FREE with a better, more considered finish, darn tooting I will opt for it over the printed copy. The difference being with classics is that they're usually out of copy-write so it's not illegal.

And I can appreciate why censorship would get people's goat as well, but perhaps with volume manga they could differentiate as they do with difficult books like The Grimms Fairy Tales. Instead of lumping all the bindings under one category, (ie, manga) they could put child-friendly manga in the kid's section, and anything inappropriate for kids in the adult section. Ok, so maybe for some countries a few titles would jump up a rating, but much of the stuff with gay/lesbian side plots, sex or mild violence is aimed at teens anyway and could slot into the teenage section with ease. Those kinds of themes are present in teen literature already, so it shouldn't be an issue.