Depression is always a 'psychological disorder for the person.' It is the same as getting cancer, it is never a choice. Nobody chooses to be depressed - why the hell would they? Are you getting sadness confused with the actual medical condition of 'Depression?' Saying that - it can be treated and controlled with time and effort, but it doesn't mean somebody can choose not to be depressed.

So you're saying it's a choice you make to be depressed; in the emo-world, maybe. I know people who've had something HUGE happen to them and were really affected by it, to the point where they didn't feel capable of carrying on. My best friend's sister died in a car accident when she was 16. Her mother was crushed, no words can describe what it's like to lose a child, and at such a young age. She was depressed for many years and even now, 10 years later, she's still not fully recovered, and I don't think that's something you can ever get over; so according to you, my friend's mother decided she'd be depressed because having a 16 year-old daugther die isn't enough to bring one's life down? Oh and it's not really a "psychological disorder", she was perfectly aware of what was going on, just couldn't cope with the pain of knowing her doughter was forever gone.

Walk a mile in their shoes and then say that. The reason that they are choosing to kill themselves is because they don't believe their problems can be solved and that there is no point in living any longer.

And suicide is a way of running away from problems for some people. :rolleyes:

People that Kill themselves are WEAK.....

I've gone through some REAL tough shit in my life.... but i never once thought about Suicide...because i'm not an idiot....

people kill themselves because they can't see a way out of the situation (be it physical or emotional) that they are in...

but in reality...there is ALWAY'S a way out.

If it can't be Solved...it can be escaped...that is a fact of life...

yea things like Losing friends and relatives is harsh...i know because ive lost plenty....i know ALL about grief....but again...i never wanted to kill myslef....

the problem is alot of these people that top themselves are SO involved in thier own little world they can't see more than 2 ft infront of thier own face....

SO they don't see the sollution...the don't even look for the sollution...they just give up.....they accept thier fate...and then that brings them down...

i have NO SYMPATHY for people that kill themselves...

they are selfish... stupid..narrow minded fools....and while the world is of course better of without them...that doesnt justify the hurt that suicide causes.....

SUICIDE...is the most SELFISH act you can do....

The world is never better without a loved one, I think that's a really awful thing to say. Yes it's selfish, yes it's certainly harsh on the people left behind, as I know myself. But not everybody is the same as you - people are weak in different places, but it doesn't mean they are weak everywhere.

You are assuming people are thinking rationally when committing suicide. It can be an act of manic fear or sadness that causes it - it's not just done randomly when someone's feeling sad. When you are depressed it is extremely hard to think rationally, it wouldn't always occur to them to weigh up the bads and goods in life.

There is...its a thing that you are lucky.

There are state of minds....well, theres no turning back

People who commit suicide often suffer from a psychological condition that does not allow them to see any hope. It has nothing to do with the "shit" in their lives. Like you, I've gone through tough spots in my life. Unlike you, I HAVE wanted to kill myself. I came really close one time, but at the last moment I felt some hope and that prevented me from going too far. People who commit suicide do not feel that tiny glimmer of hope. Everything is just black for them. They don't see a reason to keep living. At times, it is selfish, but mostly it seems like a last resort.
But really, you don't know what you are talking about, and nobody wants to listen to your empty-headed, self-righteous yapping. It's fine that you have opinion, but at least explain yourself in a way that you aren't offending people.

Whoa whoa whoa....
 

theAlphaDuck

MissMisa

Thunda

allie2590

and others…..
Whoa whoa whoa, please calm down, no ONE person here is wrong, ALL of you have a part of the PIE when it comes to the negative and positive aspects of suicide, that is why I said there are MANY reasons for such an action, rather I provided the point,

“Survival of the fittest.”

Ones mental or physical state in which a person can comprehend the ramifications of suicide are in desperate need of attention and are not a typical suicide threat. Those are the ones that slit their wrists get sown up and then show it off, okay someone said EMO, hey be nice, they used to say that about rock and roll and punk rock, as well as techno, EMO is just the new crap.

On a side note, most “victims” yes it is a mental infliction or infection of the brain caused by ones level of mental state to BREAK the bounds of sound judgment either by caused / by chemical induction i.e. drugs or self indoctrinated mitosis of the brain cells caused by a person who is in fact truly insane.

Don’t say they are weak, or pathetic, ….

But also don’t say they DON’T have a choice, even mentally handicapped people have choices to make, …

However, one has to include in BOTH relative accounts for WHY, to include the “OUTSIDE FACTOR” –

Once a person is indoctrinated into believing what they are doing is for a better cause then that cause becomes the REPLACEMENT FOR logical thinking and ah ha! What did I say needs to be removed or lost or damaged, “Logical Thinking” -- This leads to some examples YOU ALL have not addressed when it comes to suicide.

Suicide bombers –
(Google it, you get the idea)

Women throwing themselves off a cliff in Okinawa Japan during WW2 –
because the Japanese soldiers told the Okinawan women that if an American Soldiers (man) captured you, they would eat you alive and throw your babies about like play toys.

Kamikaze pilots –
Crazy? No
Dumb? Heck no!
Angry? Not really

So why, because the chemical reaction that is built into the human brain to fight or flight is SHUT OFF or OVERRIDDEN by a devotion to an idea.

So, I think you guys get the idea, hope that helps, now lets stop all this sad talk and lets post funny pictures!!





PEACE! :happybunny:

ok...if ive offended anyone...especially those with suicideal thoughts...allow me to explain......in clearer language.

1. people with mental disorders..need help...and more often than not in all major western nations....get it

2. people that feel suicidal...HAVE closed thier mind to realising sollutions to thier problems...i say it is weak because if you stop fighting...if you stop looking for answers...then you are giving up.

3. i fully stand by the statement word for word that
"suicide is THE most SELFISH thing you can do"
people that kill them selves are always in a frame of mind that is me, me, me me, me
I cant go on, I cant take any more of this stress, I dont know what to do....I want to kill myself

4. THERE IS ALWAYS A SOLLUTION...OR A MEANS OF ESCAPE....

what i find funny is:....that all these suicidal angsty teenagers are always living in such NICE countries....

people with REAL hardship do not commit suicide....because keeping it together or staying alive on a day by day basis takes so much effort....

its only the people who have the ability to sit around and wallow in thier own depression that kill themselves...


people in Africa...Live in mud huts...have to walk miles for dirty drinking water.... most children DIE before the age of 5...if you have a daughter...and she lives...there is dealing with the fact that she will probably get raped by the time she is 14....

yet these people DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE....yet they have alot harder lives...

but some 15yr old in some plush western country...with a belly full of food...a warm roof over her head...internet...mobile...trendy clothes... etc.....
has a life SO hard she can only think to top herself?

with NO regard to what that will do to her mother or father or siblings?

someone mentioned that they had a friend who topped themselves...

let me ask you....if she was still alive....and that friend did something to you that made you THAT SAD...that effected you SO deeply that everytime you think of that action...it breaks your heart....would you still be that persons friend???

no you wouldnt...

and would your friend do that to you on purpose...no...

simply they did not think about you....they only think about them selves....

there are HOT sunny countries in this world where you can live FOR FREE!!!!
never having to worry about food, shelter, or the direction your life is taking.....

there is NEVER AN EXCUSE....

especially if you have a belly full of food...

IVE seen and experienced hardship...and i know that i am stronger than most....but that does not mean that those that kill themselves are not weaker.

no offence is meant....

im sure that if you tried to commit suicide..or have a friend that has...this may offend you....sorry...please dont kill yourself...


by the way...this thread reminds me of a japanese joke.

what does a japanese mugger say to you?
---
--
-
Give me your wallet or ill kill myself :P

bouncing of a point made by the sarge...

i think suicide bombing, kamakazi etc...
is more about brain washing...both from society and an organised group.

i think it would be wrong to class those people as suicidal...

i remember when a 15yr old arab BOY...with a suicide vest on...

walked into an army checkpoint...crying his eyes out...only repeating
"i dont wanna die!"

it was REALLY sad...

its strange though that some societys have more suicide than others...

Japan has a BIG problem with suicide...yet its a prosperous country
uganda has virtually NO SUICIDE though people live with extreme hardships...

i think therefore alot of it is due to "Social Programming" by society...
something most people dont realise goes on and is happening to them...

also regarding suicide bombers....
i quote the tamil Tigers comander regarding suicide bombers (not verbatum but near enough)

"yes we use suicide bombers...if we want to hit a well defended target...we will have to use 150 men..of those probably only 50 will come back and the likelyhood of mission failure is high... however..if we use a single suicide operative then mission sucess is almost garenteed and our losses are only one...so in effect that one operative would have saved 99 lives..and chances are if we used a conventional attack...they would have died anyway"

but yea...i DO think that the two are VERY different...because "martyrs" have been brainwashed to kill themselves....suicidal teenagers have not

Another interesting thought that reached into my cerebral cortez is that everyone who thinks their lives are horrible usually try to oust others whose lives are bad. Makes you wonder what's really important: that life that's horrible, or how horrible the life is. More importantly, does it really freakin' matter?

Life is just like a road, you must get up every time you trip and move on. But if you simply give up at the thirst hard obstacle without giving a fight, you might as well admit that you're pathetic and weak.

AlphaDuck, you are speaking from a very Western perspective, and not with a lot to back it up. You call ingrained cultural foundations "brainwashing" because they don't line up with your logic. You just can't see it from another perspective, which is OK, but you need to acknowledge that.

attitudes about suicide, communication styles, language, individual vs. group, food, these are all a part of culture. You are in no position to call kamikaze pilots who fought with their lives to protect Japan "weak", "brainwashed" or "idiots".

Here are the top 10 countries by suicide rates. Not all such nice places to live:

Suicides per 100,000 people per year
Country Males Females Total Year
Lithuania 70.1 14.0 40.2 2004
Belarus 63.3 10.3 35.1 2003
Russia 61.6 10.7 34.3 2004
South AfricaN/A N/A 30.0 2004
Kazakhstan 51.0 8.9 29.2 2003
Hungary 44.9 12.0 27.7 2003
Guyana 42.5 12.1 27.2 2003
South Korea N/A N/A 26.1 2005
Slovenia 37.9 13.9 25.6 2004
Latvia 42.9 8.5 24.3 2004

I resent that.

My point is that Alpha Duck seems to have concluded that people only commit suicide in very rich countries, while people in very poor countries don't commit suicide. I am just showing that can't be considered a fact, as most of these places are not very rich places.

im not calling ingrained culural foundations "Brainwashing"

but suicide in the face of battle IS brain washing...

having a DEEP knowledge of Hypnosis...you learn about brainwashing

it happens in MOST if not ALL armed forces....
especially when it comes to suicidal attacks...
the Kamikazi pilots of WW2 were brainWashed....

just as the suicide bombers of today are brainwashed....
that is a simple fact....
Brainwashing is EXTREMELY sophisticated...
it requires time and effort...
and is VERY dangerous...not to be underestimated at any rate...

everyone can be brainwashed...
inteligence or background do not protect you from this...

I could explain the moethods behind brainwashing...but i think thats getting off topic...

also i have seen this list before...its the wiki list... i noticed that you stopped right at the point where Japan comes in the list....

also lithuania, S korea, hungary, latvia...esp S koreo and Japan which comes next in the list...are nice places to live...Russia is messed up..and south africa has good and bad parts...the rest i have no accurate PERSONAL experience about so cannot comment.

but it is CLEAR that POVERTY and suicide are not directly linked...nor are hardship and suicide directly linked...and that was the point i was making...somthing your evidence supports.

Or it's an idea of culture?

American's saw the kamikaze pilots and soldiers as insane, willing to die rather than to live and surrender. Even today, we see car bombers are insane psychopaths who thrive on death.

In reality, those soldiers in Japan lived with honor, and to surrender meant a loss of honor to them, and for them, to live without honor was far worse than to die with it (don't quote me on that, that's just a generalized thought of my remembrance of history).

The car bombers today? It's mainly a religious thing, insofar that if you die while killing an infidel, you go to Heaven with 70-some-odd virgins.

Culture could be considered brainwashing to a certain extent, but brainwashing has a rather strong connotation with it.

AlphaDuck, you are still looking through western colored glasses.

Kamikaze attacks on American ships was not due to "brainwashing".

The "death before defeat" credo of Japanese soldiers goes all the way back to the days of the Bushido. Were the samurai brainwashed, too? Come on. It's a part of the CULTURE and suicide is looked upon very differently in Japan than it is in the west.

My list of top 10 countries was in response to this quote from you:

what i find funny is:....that all these suicidal angsty teenagers are always living in such NICE countries....

I am just saying that your line can't be taken as fact.

Yes, but posting a list of suicide countries where the last update is 2004, doesn't prove that you're right.
I can also post different lists, like this one, but it won't prove that Alphies conclusion is completely wrong

Exactly. We want to call it brainwashing because that's the only logical reason anyone would kill themselves for their country or their religion in most Western eyes.

It won't make sense from a Western way of thinking. But that doesn't mean it's brainwashing.

And that would be misleading, as your list only contains the countries highlighted on this map



I didn't say AlphaDuck's conclusion was "completely wrong" I simply said that all these suicidal angsty teenagers are always living in such NICE countries.... isn't necessarily true.

To make the statement more relevant, we could possibly say that, "All these suicidal angsty teenagers are always living in such nice conditions."

Then again, this whole thread has changed its topic to (a) "I'm right," thread or (b) "My life's shit yet I'm still kicking," thread, so its most likely more worth it for me to shut my face at this point.

none of the data can REALLY be quoted as it is to general and does not give specifics...e.g it does not take into account countries where euthanasia is Legal....or the AGE of the suicide victims...

also it does not take into account the different coronors court laws throughout the world...what is classed as Suicide in one country may be classed as "death by missadventure" in another.

regarding brainwashing....

its not about bushido culture....i know a bit about Japanese Culure...and most of those Samurais that killed themselves Honourably...had thier heads chopped off as soon as thier own blade entered thier gut...something i was suprised to learn...

brainwashing happens when...
someone is taken out of thier normal enviroment...and given step by step indoctrination...to sacrifice them selves for whatever cause...

do you really think that Kamakazi pilots or suicide bombers had 20 mins of training and where then ready to calmly fly into death?
NO
the honour culture may have done some of the ground work....
but trust me...psyops is something i know about...and brainwashing is a TOOL used by many...

Japan does have a culture that lends itsef to suicide...but that does not mean that an element of brainwashing is needed...

but i feel this is taking the thread in an offshoot direction....

the OP is clearly regarding teen angst suicides in nice countries.....

and thus my statements regarding this hold up...

but i will re-afirm them...

suicide by self absorbed teenagers...is selfish...these people should look at life for what it really is.

MMM i am MORE than happy to discuss brainwashing, suicide tactics, social hypnosis, social conditioning etc.
but i feel its a conversation for another thread....if you start it...i WILL reply... i am always more than happy to share my knowedge

Peace

People are commiting suicides in all over the world no matter what their reasons are, and all I wanted state is that posting any statistical list won't prove anything.

So you and Alphie are both wrong, and both right.

Ah, suicide...

There are just some things that people can't deal with, mentally/emotionally speaking. It's more than their psyche can handle, and once they've tried medication, and therapy, and they still just feel so dag overwhelmed...

They snap. And, break out the pills in hope for an overdose. Or a gun for a happy little game of Russian Roulette.

It's heartbreaking, hopefully, to their family and friends, absolutely. But... I think you just can't help the helpless.

Sorry….
…. to misguide the topic, suicide bombers and kamikaze are in a whole another topic.

But to explain why… (sorry but trust me they are not lumped into the general suicidal tenancies as stated in the original post)

OP was -- “My life is Shit” and yes, MMM is right that is inherently a western culture type of statement, MMM is right, Alpha Duck is off a bit, but I see how he is trying to connect the two and sorry duck, they are very slightly related, … it was my bad attempt at using a well know forum of suicide to explain that suicide is not weak.

Brainwashed persons are just that, people, they are NOT soldiers, solders are not brainwashed, and they are trained, big difference.

When military trains them in a “vacuum” like environment, it is not brainwashing, that pilot could turn the plane if he wanted too, … , the term suicide is not even remotely close to explaining that era of mankind and today’s bombers.

Sorry I even brought it up… however, I related that because it was an easy example of how Suicide is BUILT INTO the human DNA. That is all. WE CAN TAP THAT TYPE OF CHEMICAL UNBALANCE EITHER BY DRUGS, TRAINING, OR YES< BRAIN WASHING, BUT KAMIKAZE ARE NOT BRAIN WASHED.
Again it was not intent of my post to get all the way out here in left field.

Fact:

Suicide exists because we are an advance form of life that has "conscious state of being" and can choose to commit suicide if we choose to.
People that are suicidal are and always have been in some form or another in a chemical imbalance, (Google it) there are many reasons, see my first post.

Anyone who "feels” suicidal is in the early stages of self “down time". From time to time is a normal part of life. But when sadness takes hold and won't go away, it may be depression. Some of you are talking about depression.

More than just the temporary "blues," is the first step to suicidal tries and the lows of depression make it tough to function and enjoy life like you once did. A person with severe depression has little or no interest in work or hobbies, and may even have trouble getting out of bed. With treatment and help, you can feel better. Learning how to understand depression – including its signs, symptoms, and causes – is the first step to overcoming the problem.

I hope we all learn something, no one here is qualified to judge, explain, or prove anything, we can only give examples and post links, no one is right, or wrong, the only true fact is…

check my first post:

Suicide is a possible choice for some humans due to chemical imbalanced in the brain as described in medical journals. If you know someone that is moving beyond the levels of clinical depression, seek help, don’t guess at it or try to “help” having one more person “bugging them” or trying to relate is only going to make things worse, some people ultimately require chemical intervention, a vacation or a change of life and diet to help them out.

Best to make sure we don’t leave any “what if’s” in this thread should one of our younger folks get a hold of this thread.

God Bless,
Hewa!
Peace!

I don't wish to derail this thread any further, and I don't feel the need to start a new thread about kamikaze pilots, but as fun and interesting as conspiracy theories can be, I don't think you can dismiss Bushido culture completely from the kamikaze of WWII.

And Aniki, I can accept your conclusion.

Now back to emo angst having nothing to do with Japan!

Good.

Peace!:)

YES...it is important for younglings to know...

SUICIDE IS NOT THE ANSWER.....

Regardless of what you do...or what your problem always remeber

to quote from T1
"In a hundered years time...Whos gonna give a shit?"

They have a right too, yes, but sometimes we can stop them.
I've heard people complain that their life sucks so much, that I wrote a blog about it two years ago or so. Though, when I rant, people tend to get annoyed and not listen, even though my intentions are to knock people into thinking sensibly.

These "brats" haven't learned the real world, which means the life they have right now is going to seem like heaven to them in the future.
Each year, the smaller the attention span is, so you can't expect to teach them anything.

Maybe I'm getting off topic, but what they are doing is :

"A permanent solution to a temporary problem"

That's what I believe.


Yes, I'm not about to say we should love our lives, since we haven't experienced the rest of the world, but depression can sometimes be a
problem with the brain.
What I'm trying to say, I guess, is I doubt anyone would leave their current lives for a worse life, so all they want is to make the one they have better.
When the one they have gets worse, it's stressful, but these are our own problems, and we should focus on those and help others as much as possible.

It's such a difficult thing to explain...

I am not sure how any of us have the right or ability to judge another person's mental state.

I am surprised at how many insults are being hurled at people who have attempted suicide.

1. suicide isn't really an option i don't think, i'm kinda optimistic in the way. "Why waste life?"

I have cried so many times in the past week for stupid reasons, being sad and down isn't a reason to stop living, it would hurt your family so bad,

I think if you commit suicide you are being selfish. In the way you aren't thinking how it will affect others I.E. family: friends: and others who live around you.

I believe kids are more confused about what they are sad about. To say your life is shit at a young age, of course is possible in certain situations (like if your parents died etc.) but most of the time kids are in fact, as salvanas has said, being "brats". Even older people have this problem but I think it's more understandable for an older person to be depressed because they take on more responsibilities and take more pressure then younger people.

Anyways getting back on topic, is it right to commit suidcide? I guess that really depends on a person's set views. I personally think suidcide isn't the best choice, I think its a "easy way of getting out of your problems." People in have it waaaaaaaaaaay harder in certain parts of the world and you don't see them killing themselves. But to say that someone doesn't have the right, is also wrong. I think people have the right to end their lifes, because it's their own personal choice, I just don't think it's a right choice. Deal with your problems, killing yourself isn't the answer. Also, people dealing with depression should seek help.

1: Do kids have the right to commit suicide for such problems when we have people being raped, abused, dieing of starvation, or have some sort of lethal disease who still strive to survive?
yeah. because, to put it simply, people have every right to do whatever they want with their lives.

2: Do adults really have the right to be depressed for long periods of time or (even at all) over such problems, when we have people being raped, abused, dieing of starvation, or have some sort of lethal disease who still strive to survive?
the origin of depression can be genetic, pharmacologic, endocrinal, etc.
so it's like asking if people with down syndrome have the right to be mentally challenged when we have people with IQs over 150. or asking if someone taking ferrous sulfate have the right to be constipated.

I thought the same way, though I'm not sure that's the way the questions were meant to be worded.

More like, is it morally right?
If it IS supposed to be worded like that, then I completely agree : )

i have my own set of morals & every individual person has their own.

personally, i believe that life shouldn't be thrown away so easily or wasted by being down in the dumps all the time.

but, as we all know, some people will never see things that way. everything's against them, blah diddy blah blah blah.

& i don't like pushing my beliefs onto others.

so, if they want to kill themselves or be depressed for the rest of their lives, then fine. go ahead. as long as they don't drag other people down with them, then i really could care less.

I'll second that, I believe the samething. Person have the right to do what they want with their life's, as long as they don't take others with them.