Can I blame you for Global Warming?

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by superheel

There's a difference between now and 2000 years ago. Technology uses chemicals which are not present 2000 years ago. So, I think that's a valiud answer to that. Because 2000 years ago, all men can do to pollute earth is trash and fire. Actually, there's not alot of trash back then.

You are incorrect. If the chemicals man is using now were not present on earth 2000 years ago, where did man get them? Outer space? All chemicals used by man originate on earth, meaning that they have always been here.

What is trash made of? Paper, which comes from trees, metals, which come from the soil, and plastic, which is refined from petroleum, which also comes from the soil. Petroleum is called a "fossil fuel", meaning that it is formed from decayed plants and animals.

Many of these chemicals which we "pollute" the earth with are harmful in the short term, but they eventually break down into their original state, and return to the soil from which they came.

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by zed

ok i followed your advice and this is what I have found.

Anxious about global warming

yes there is an opinion and research of ONE OCEANOLOGIST
but but if you read the the second article, there is a warning firmed by 1500 of the most renoun scientists and novel prices about how we have poluted the earth, and they agree global warming is real.

don't know about you but I think this guy is yust trying to make himself a name going against what almost all agree.

You are lying. The number was not 1500, it was 51. Where did you get your facts?

The "Oregon Petition", which demanded that the UN reject the Kyoto protocol and re-investigate the IPCC's research was signed by 31,000 scientists.

This letter was addressed to the UN last year, it was written by scientists who are demanding that the UN set the scientific record straight in regards to "global warming". http://www.tech-know.eu/uploads/Lett...an_Ki-moon.pdf

[MissHoneyBeeee]

my science teacher thinks that global warming would happen whether or not we do what we do
only thing we do is make it go faster :P

I kind of agree with that

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

So you want to go into extinction rates? Fortunatly, our habitat will be the last to go, as it is atrificial. But, for that matter, yes, people are starving to death in Africa. Why? Not actually global warming, but a tied in concept; logging the forests up river...

40% of the worlds rain is from forests. After that, the water that falls on the forest is stored in its roots. A large tree can hold about a medium swimming pool worth of water. Africa has distinct wet and dry seasons. This means that in the dry seasons the rivers can only continue to flow if there is a large forest up stream slowly releasing the water from its roots. The forests are gone, the farming seasons are halved. Starvation.

The problem goes a lot further than that... shall I continue? ... yes, I shall.

With the rivers running dry there is less sediment delivered to the ocean. This sediment is one of the food sources for krill. Krill are the bottom of the food chain. They are important. By weight, krill is the most abundant species on this planet. The krill stocks are depleting due to lack of food from river sediment.

Now, the Africans have a miracle solution to dry rivers! Chemicals! So, these poisinous fertilizers used to make the crops grow when dry are making their way into the river, and being delivered to the ocean along with the little sediment. That means poison food for the krill. The krill store the chemical in their bodies.

Now, everything in the sea almost eats the krill. You see, little fish eat the krill, store the poison in their bodies, then whales eat the fish, store the poison, so on so on. Then we eat the fish. Now, a Japanese womens breast milk is so toxic that it would not be allowed out of the country were it in any other container than her breasts. Luckily, we can bottle feed, and stop the African fertilizer from being passed to our babies. However, for animals like the sperm whale, bottle feeding just wont work. So the what whales the Japanese dont eat will eventually diminish from poison...

And who is going to think twice before they buy their next big wodden bed or wardrobe or building a wooden house?

I dont believe you will find the truth about this shit in school. You must study to learn facts, and piece the theory together yourself. The theories in school are often political pop culture...

I think you'd be surprised. I have been studying for a long time now. Not just science or natural history, but I also enjoy fighting sports which are more technical than they look.

In the end, a gut instinct often pays off. Not to mention, most of Einsteins theories are now known as wrong. Clearly, had had his facts muddled, yet him having faith in his work, regardless it was wrong, has made a truly great building block for our science today, which may also be wrong, but we trust in our work and blindly move forward into the unknown.

... Right... who fed you that?

You ever heard of a snowball earth? Well, about 600 million years ago, before complex life, the entire earth started to freeze over. There is even evidence of massive ice bergs existing in the equator.

The problem was, once ice gets a grip it is really hard to shake off. It compliments itself; the more ice that exists, the more sun light is reflected, and it starts to consume. Lucky for us this massive assed volcano blew its arse. Just one volcano. But it spewed so much CO2 into the air that it is believed in just 300 years the planet went from minus 40 celcius to plus 40 celcius... thank god for carbon dioxides heating effect, or we'd not be here now... of course, times have existed where antarctica was a tropical rain forest, but that is another story, one we don't want to see again.

This is not right. The plants drain energy from the sun. Crops absorb heat and drink water and give nothing back to the planet. Who ever told you this is full of it.

Well, the most influencial creature to exist before us was stromatolites. A small algae type cell that uses the suns energy and carbon dioxide as fuel. They congregate to form what looks like a corally rock.

They made the first oxygen. Spewed it out as a bi product. Thing was, there was so much iron in the atmosphere that the oxygen rusted with it and fell to the ground and could not do much. It is because of this process is the reason we have everything metalic today. The iron ore mines are from these little critters. Thank them.

Well, eventually the iron in the air was depleted, and the oxygen flourished. They killed 95% of living things because of the oxygen. Life was not used to such a corosive atmosphere.

So, one species can cause mass extinction from releaseing an unfavored gas... us being so dominant, I am starting to think you make this shit up, and are not getting your theories from actual history...

Oh, and yes, 99.9999% of all species ever lived are extinct. That IS four decimal points.

No reason. Anyway, your space ship is fueled and ready for a flight to mars just for you!

Well, there was these Asia-Pacific island nations that no longer exist... seems their islands have gone missing! They live in NZ now.

Besides, levels are not supposed to rise until something big like Greenland melts.

Nope, these islands did not disappear due to global warming. In the last 50 years the seas have risen an amount equal to the width of a human hair.

These islands disappeared because the islanders dynamited the reefs surrounding them to allow easier access for boats. Unfortunately, this also allowed natural tidal forces to inundate the islands.

As for the decrease in rainfall in Africa, how can you blame global warming? If, in fact, the seas were getting warmer, evaporation would increase, causing increased cloud formation and rain. You are demonstrating a fact which refutes global warming, not one which supports it.

Do you know why Africans are starving? Because their population has increased to a point beyond that which their form of agriculture can support. Add to that the political corruption which loots the people's wealth. Prior to the government of Zimbabwe's confiscation of white-owned farms, Zimbabwe was a food-exporting nation. Now the people are starving. They have the land, the tools, and the water, what they lack is the ability or desire to make use of them.

The global warming hysteria has caused a dramatic increase in the demand for bio-fuels. But, the material most often used for bio-fuel is corn, which is also a food item. People are starving, but it is because the bio-fuel boom has caused food prices to increase beyond what the very poor can pay. Added to that fact is that land which was once being used to grow food products is now being used to grow bio-fuel material. And, yes, rain forests are also being cut down to increase bio-fuel production. Brazil uses nothing but bio-fuel to power its vehicles, how much rain forest did they have to cut down to produce it?

Crops do not trap heat, they reflect it, so once again you are stating something which is contrary to fact. Rain forests trap heat, water vapor in the atmosphere traps heat, large cities trap heat, but crops do not.

The most common poison appearing in salt water fish is not pesticide or fertilizer, but mercury, which is naturally occurring. Fertilizers are a problem, but they are not related to global warming in any way, since global warming is not happening, and has no effects on agriculture. If Co2 levels are increasing as stated by the IPPC, then agriculture should be thriving.

Krill are not the bottom of the food chain. Zooplankton and phytoplankton are. Whales do not exist entirely on krill, they eat both types of plankton as well. Large amounts of fresh water river run off have been shown to kill plankton, so water run off is good and bad.

Co2 accounts for less than 4% of the earth's greenhouse gases. And its classification as a greenhouse gas is iffy at best. There are times in earth's history when Co2 levels were 1000 times higher than they are now, and life existed just fine. The hockey stick chart used by the IPCC to chart increases in Co2 is false, and has been discredited. Contrary studies show that Co2 levels in the early 19th century are nearly identical to the levels which we are seeing now.

You say you have been studying. What school do you go to? Are you in college now? As far as I can tell, you seem to have picked up your knowledge from the same place as anyone else, news headlines and popular fiction.

[noodle]

Tenchu, me mentioning school was to show you that I DID NOT listen to what the teachers said, but that I went to study it myself...

Okay. Let me start by answering “What is Science?” The most basic definition of science only contains 3 words. Observation, Theory (creating a model being a branch of this) and prediction. Science also goes in that order. You observe, then you theorise (create a model if you can), then you predict things. After that, the cycle restarts. Once you’ve predicted, you observe again etc, if you find something new or different or wrong, you amend your theory. That is the basic principles of Science.
So unfortunately, Science has nothing to do with faith, unless you’re talking about having faith in your theory while it goes round the cycle which ends up proving the theory correct or incorrect. But I wouldn’t call that faith. Hope would be a better choice of words for me!

Anyway the language of Science is maths. Numbers! So I’m going to start talking about some numbers concerning Global warming!

We humans produce around 8*10^9 tons (8 gigatons) of CO2 per year. We know that half of that stays in the atmosphere, where as the rest is... lets just say, food for plants and the oceans etc.
Scientists also know that there is about 740*10^9 (740 gigatons) of CO2 in the atmosphere already. Basic maths shows that we only add 0.5% of CO2 into the atmosphere each year.

Now, let’s have a looks at the numbers for Mother Nature. The oceans themselves produce almost 100 gigatons of CO2 per year. Plants around 70 gigatons of CO2. No matter which scientists’ research and numbers are almost the same. Some will say 6 gigatons compared to 8. Others will say 60 compared to 70 etc.

Anyway, the point is that Natures CO2 emissions are always over 30:1

So, WE humans can’t even create as much CO2 as Mother Nature even if we tried.
I have yet to find the exact figures for the intake of CO2 by Mother Nature and how it’s affected by deforestation etc. As soon as I find them, I’ll post them up! But from what I remember, it hasn’t changed severely due to deforestation, however, personally, I still don’t think agree with abusing the planet.

Tenchu, you also mentioned that something is off because the temp has suddenly risen. I understand the logic in saying that a sudden change is bad for the environment, but unfortunatley, nothing of the sort has happened.

If you look at the temperatues of the earth for the past 150 years, you will see the following.

Prior to 1910ish: there was a cooling. This was attributed to Nature
1910 – 1940ish: A QUICK rise in temperature similar to what we’ve experienced for the past 20 years or so. This is attributed to Nature also.
1940ish – 1980s: a decile in temp. Also attributed to Nature. (The so called next ice-age which was predicted by the same (political) scientists that are pushing this Global Warming thing.
1980s – Present : A rise in temperature similar to 1910 – 1940. Somehow, this is Human made.

Unfortunately, logic now, says that sudden changes in temperature and sudden rises are not uncommon for nature. They have happened before and not more than 150 years ago.

TO BE CONTINUED... Next time will be about Tidewater glacier cycle and other things concerning the life of an Ice cap!!!


Oh and btw Zed, if you believe that 1500 scientists agreed on an EVOLVING theory, then you don't really know science or scientists!






EDIT!!!! BTW, Tenchu, your talk about Africa has nothing to do with Global warming. People have been starving in Africa for the past 3 to 4 thousand years!!! It has nothing to do with Global warming but rather to do with foreign domination or Monarchy type civilisations (such as the Egyptians and Lybians) who thought that they were greater than the people! Give Africans an means to build themselves a life peacefuly and you'll see famine decrease at incredible rates within 2 generations! Toureg people live in the desert! Their conditions are worse than these unfortunate dying Africans!

[zed]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

You are incorrect. If the chemicals man is using now were not present on earth 2000 years ago, where did man get them? Outer space? All chemicals used by man originate on earth, meaning that they have always been here.

What is trash made of? Paper, which comes from trees, metals, which come from the soil, and plastic, which is refined from petroleum, which also comes from the soil. Petroleum is called a "fossil fuel", meaning that it is formed from decayed plants and animals.

Many of these chemicals which we "pollute" the earth with are harmful in the short term, but they eventually break down into their original state, and return to the soil from which they came.

have you ever heard of non degradable waiste, or have you seen our oceans, they are full of plastic, there is alot research to back me up, it does brake down, but just into smaller peaces and in a really long period of time, meanwile is destroying the life in the oceans. there is proof of samples taken even far into the seas and all them came out polluted, (yust so you know what pollution is) and if you say that CO2 is not that dangerous try sticking your nose into a car exhaust pipe for five minutes and see what hapens to your lungs. that is why in very crowded cities people sufer alot from respiratory problems.

[alexlovesrock]

Originally Posted by CarleyGee

That is . . . if global warming is even real.

thank you al gore for making a bad documentary which overhyped the facts

[zed]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

You are lying. The number was not 1500, it was 51. Where did you get your facts?

The "Oregon Petition", which demanded that the UN reject the Kyoto protocol and re-investigate the IPCC's research was signed by 31,000 scientists.

This letter was addressed to the UN last year, it was written by scientists who are demanding that the UN set the scientific record straight in regards to "global warming". http://www.tech-know.eu/uploads/Lett...an_Ki-moon.pdf

Did you checked the site? or just posted, that only reflects that you are so closed minded that you can't see the other side, I have checked yours and only lists 13 sientists check my reference and you will find at least 360 plus from those there are more than 100 who have Novel awards.

the fact that planet is warming is irrefutable, here is another site were you can inform yourself about it, it is true that natural warmht is ocurring as as it has happened every 100,000 years, this are some of the reasons why.Sunlight brings energy into the climate system; most of it is absorbed by the oceans and land.
By natural warming
The greenhouse effect is a natural warming process. Carbon dioxide (CO2) and certain other gases are always present in the atmosphere. These gases create a warming effect that has some similarity to the warming inside a greenhouse, hence the name “greenhouse effect.”

but this is what is been happening over the lasts decades,
amplified warming
Increasing the amount of greenhouse gases intensifies the greenhouse effect. Higher concentrations of CO2 and other greenhouse gases trap more infrared energy in the atmosphere than occurs naturally. The additional heat further warms the atmosphere and Earth’s surface. usually the planet itself would take care of it but we are putting more on the atmosfere than it can handle.

this is the way nature deals whith it.
Short-Term Cycles:
Carbon is exchanged rapidly between plants and animals through respiration and photosynthesis, and through gas exchange between the oceans and the atmosphere.

Long-Term Cycle:
Over millions of years, carbon in the air is combined with water to form weak acids that very slowly dissolve rocks. This carbon is carried to the oceans where some forms coral reefs and shells. These sediments may be moved deep into the Earth by drifting continents and eventually released into the atmosphere by volcanoes.

now this is how the gases we are puting in the atmosphere afect it.
carbon dioxide (CO2)56%, methane (CH4)18%, nitrous oxide (N2O)6%, the chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs)13% used in air conditioners and many industrial processes, and ozone 7%

if you want to learn about other reasons why the planet is warming up visit this site.
Global Warming Facts and Our Future - Introduction

[noodle]

Zed, I think it's time you posted something that isn't learnt in Secondary school!

Here's a simple question for you...

Why is it as we've measured the Earth getting warmer, we've also meaured the surface of the moon getting warmer at a similar rate?

[zed]

Originally Posted by noodle

Zed, I think it's time you posted something that isn't learnt in Secondary school!

Here's a simple question for you...

Why is it as we've measured the Earth getting warmer, we've also meaured the surface of the moon getting warmer at a similar rate?

thank you for your post, you jus agreed that earth is warming up. those may be secondary school learnings but you seem to have forgoten about them until now.

now lets say I agree whit you, now tell me why do you think it is getting warmer?